Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Handkerchief only if not wearing the uniform coat, I think from the Dignity picture (no pocket, otherwise). I have been trying to estimate the lengths of the coats in that photo and I think the nearest is the one on the right, though I agree that otherwise the centre two are the likeliest candidates.

 

Looking through other photos in the book, there are a couple oif others who could be Ticket Inspectors, including one with a bandolier and a beard at Machynllet (it is annoying that there are no plate nos and few page nos but that one is on page 50).

 

Another useful one is Llanbrynmair (page 23) as it will have had only a few staff and I think the centre gentleman is almost certainly the Stationmaster (despite the other hat). Another beard. insignia on the lapels, watch chain, waistcoat and quite short coat or jacket. It is frustrating that in so many of the photos one can't be sure of the functions of the individuals except the shunters.

 

By the way what about the white trousers of what looks like the fireman on page 16 and, on a different tack, the plate reading Cambrian Rail Company on the loco on page 14?

 

Hours of happy picture browsing. I must get back to those Mid Wales Railway timber wagons.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Sorry to drag you away from timber wagons; I am not sure I have much to add to that as all I have is one or two pictures of Cambrian Railways timber wagons.

 

I have looked at the 'Dignity' photo and I would agree that the jacket of the one in the middle is the same length as the one on the right, but I think the ones sitting down have longer jackets.

 

On the Machynlleth photo I had assumed that the man in the middle was the train guard, but my argument is circular, guards have bandoliers, he has a bandolier, he must be a guard.  The only picture I have come across in my not very extensive search of the internet of a Ticket Collector with a bandolier was on the LSWR in 1870 and the strap was much thinner than this.  Different railway 25 years before is not proof of anything I know.  However, if bandoliers were part of their attire I would have thought that our three friends mentioned above would have worn them for their photo.

 

Llanbrynmair photo, I think that you are absolutely right; he has the air of being in charge.  The one on the right appears to be a porter, and the one on the left, umm well, ticket collecter, ticket seller, goods office?  I assume that the Station Master's jacket is shorter as it is a small station.

 

Page 16.  Yes how interesting.  I had assumed he was driver but he has a sleeved waistcoat so he must be the fireman.  How interesting.

 

Page 14.  Your eyesight is better than mine!  Could it be that Savin put it on as it is an old Savin Engine?  Probably not but it is interesting. 

 

I think that most of history is trying to find out what was known and taken for granted then, whenever 'then' was.

[Anotheran]

here are the four hopefuls for the Station Masters position.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Would I be correct in thinking that you've fixed them with super-glue to come plasticard? If so, does it snap off easily without damaging the figures, or do you need to slice away with a knife?

I'm asking because I want to undercoat some of my figures on Thursday evening once I'm home from London!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[Jaz]

I want to say thank you, I noticed you used grey for your under coat, coming from a citadel back ground where they recommend black I tend to use that,but I noticed yours showed up a lot of detail, and having tried it am very pleased with the result.    

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, probably the guard at Machynlleth on second thoughts.

 

That "fireman" in white trousers is odd, and so is his "driver". Neither of them looks suitable dressed for an arduous and dirty job. I am trying to persuade myself that the "fireman" is not wearing a bow tie! He certainly has a watch chain. The same applies to the two at the top of page 31; both far too smart. In some of the other photos both driver and fireman are decidedly scruffy, which is what you would expect after half an hour on a cabless loco.

 

And you haven't given your thoughts on bowler hats. In many circumstances this would have denoted the guv'nor or at least the foreman. But obviously not on the Cambrian at this period.

 

No progress on the timber wagons today but I have been proof reading and correcting the HMRS newsletter and doing more useful things (slightly), and spending too long on RMWeb.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

 

Would I be correct in thinking that you've fixed them with super-glue to come plasticard? If so, does it snap off easily without damaging the figures, or do you need to slice away with a knife?

I'm asking because I want to undercoat some of my figures on Thursday evening once I'm home from London!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

I have attached the figures to cut up business cards using Copydex.  I hasten to add, they are not my business cards as I do not have any but they are ones that I have been given. 

 

I wash the figures in soapy water, dry them and then holding them in a paper towel paint their feet and legs up to their jackets.  I then glue them to the card.  You need to let them dry properly and even then there is sometimes an issue of them not being very stable.  The ladies with full skirts that touch the ground are much easier to stick with less glue.

 

I have painted these with Humbrol No1 acrylic primer.  I have in the past done as people recommended and used Halfords grey primer but you often get the 'pointy bits' not covered.  It is possible to thin this primer but you can get the same trouble.  I probably should have done a little bit on these as my son says he thinks the primer is a bit heavy.

 

The flesh colour was put on thinned and if you are careful you do not get it in the eye holes which only works with Stadden models as they are so detailed.

 

Have fun and I hope they go well.

[ChrisN]

I want to say thank you, I noticed you used grey for your under coat, coming from a citadel back ground where they recommend black I tend to use that,but I noticed yours showed up a lot of detail, and having tried it am very pleased with the result.    

 

Jaz,

I am really pleased that it has been helpful.  It actually made my day as your painting is so good anyway I was pleased that my idea has helped improve it.

 

 I have thought of black for the workers to darken the skin but grey works quite well.  I have got some ordinary white metal primer, dulux I think in a half litre tin which I used in the past and probably will do again for the ladies, well at least the posh ones to give that paler colour to the skin.

[Anotheran]

Thanks for that Chris. I'm looking forwards to giving them a go. Not sure how far I'll get past primer this week, but I'll be showing what I do get done on the thread!

[Jaz]

I do stick to acrylic for the figures, but am still working my way though a mass of sample pots bought for 10p each when one of the big DIY chains went bust......I bought a LOT, I am expecting them to last for scenery as far as the whole of AV. They fill a large Really Useful Box........

[ChrisN]

Yes, probably the guard at Machynlleth on second thoughts.

 

That "fireman" in white trousers is odd, and so is his "driver". Neither of them looks suitable dressed for an arduous and dirty job. I am trying to persuade myself that the "fireman" is not wearing a bow tie! He certainly has a watch chain. The same applies to the two at the top of page 31; both far too smart. In some of the other photos both driver and fireman are decidedly scruffy, which is what you would expect after half an hour on a cabless loco.

 

And you haven't given your thoughts on bowler hats. In many circumstances this would have denoted the guv'nor or at least the foreman. But obviously not on the Cambrian at this period.

 

No progress on the timber wagons today but I have been proof reading and correcting the HMRS newsletter and doing more useful things (slightly), and spending too long on RMWeb.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Is it possible that they knew they were going to have their photo taken, which they may not have been able to afford for themselves and so turned up in their best clothes?

 

I find it quite interesting that I do not remember seeing bowler hats on the earlier photos, even the track gangs, but now I have said that someone will point out where one is.  I cannot recall one on a Cambrian engine driver, perhaps they did not like them in Wales?  The only one that springs to mind is of the Pwllheli station foreman, (I assume that is different from the station master,) in the 1930s.  There are probably others.

 

Bowler hats on other railways for the driver I think were quite common.  I have a book, or rather some books on the LCDR and their drivers sported bowler hats.

 

HMRS.  I suppose I ought to join.  Make a sales pitch and convince me.  I will probably only be someone who uses resources.

 

Have fun, all the best.

[ChrisN]

I do stick to acrylic for the figures, but am still working my way though a mass of sample pots bought for 10p each when one of the big DIY chains went bust......I bought a LOT, I am expecting them to last for scenery as far as the whole of AV. They fill a large Really Useful Box........

 

Jaz,

I tend to use enamels for the actual painting, mainly because I am used to them and have used them since I was knee high to a grasshopper.  I do use acrylics but on other things.

[Jaz]

Jaz,

I tend to use enamels for the actual painting, mainly because I am used to them and have used them since I was knee high to a grasshopper.  I do use acrylics but on other things.

Horses for courses, we all use what we like, which is usually what we are used to , or how we learned originally. You learn over time to tweak the tuff you are comfortable with, just makes perfect sense to do so.

I often 'break the rules' making my own as it suits me. And respect other for doing so themselves....

Edited February 3, 2015 by Jaz

[ChrisN]

Just a little fashion parade.

 

 

Here is one of the guards I have started to paint.  I think this grey looks alright but please tell me if you think it is not and what colour would be better.  The waistcoat will be the same colour as the coat, I just needed to check a few pictures before I did it.

 

I was going to make this Guard Cudworth but the picture that I have of the gentleman shows him with his coat buttoned and I think that one of the guards with the shorter coat would not look senior enough.  I was going to say that I did not remember him wearing a tie but to be honest you cannot see anything under his beard!

[Jaz]

i like him, i like the grey hair, and i like the way the light highlights the grey sash hat etc.....

are you planning a gold badge on the hat?

[ChrisN]

i like him, i like the grey hair, and i like the way the light highlights the grey sash hat etc.....

are you planning a gold badge on the hat?

 

Jaz,

He is only half done and really only put up to check the uniform colour.  The sash will be brown and his hat the same dark grey but he will get white 'writing' on his lapels and white stripes on his sash.  I am not sure if the line on his hat will be white or silver, but his buttons will be silver, and with a silver badge.  I have just though he will need a gold watch chain as well.  Have a look at Guard Cudworth, I will probably do the beard as well as the others do not have such an impressive sash.  Now that will be fun.

 

Edited February 4, 2015 by ChrisN

[corneliuslundie]

I really like your figure painting (and that by Jaz) and am sure I shall never be able to match it, but it is a standard for me to aim for.

 

Yes, bowler hats seem to have been a 19th century thing. I can find about ten on men on locos (not necessarily drivers of course) in the 19th century in the Cambrian Album book but only one after that. I really ought to get Rick Green's other books on the Cambrian but they are a bit pricey.

 

Still on people, there is a wonderful photo in Keith Turton's PO wagons volume 12, taken in 1912, of a group of locals in front of a wagon (apparently at the end of a local strike). Definitely not your landed gentry. If you like I will scan it and PM it to you.

 

And on a completely different topic, and probably a long way down the line for you (and probably irrelevant for me, but so  what?) I noticed a mention in the Cambrian Album of signal lamp colours being violet and magenta to avoid confusion with shipping navigation lamps. So I looked it up in Great Western Way, and yes, main line home, starting and distant signals had violet glass for danger and clear for all clear (green after 1916), and subsidiary home, starting and distant signals had magenta for danger and pale green for all clear. And of course home signals had a white circle rather than a stripe. Now can I justify leaving these features unchanged for the single signal on Sarn in the early 1930s (a slotted post home like that which stood at Kerry until very late)?

 

The timber wagons are in the paint shop. Lettering is a bit of a problem as no-one knows anything about Mid Wales Railway liveries except that the wagons were probably pale grey. I may letter them for the Cambrian which took over in 1888 when they were less than 15 years old but I have no idea of numbers or how they were lettered. I'll post a photo in the modelling 19th century wagons thread since I said I would. Tomorrow I hope to pick up a drawing of a much more modern Cambrian Railways version which might have lasted until the 1930s.

 

Keep it up.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

I really like your figure painting (and that by Jaz) and am sure I shall never be able to match it, but it is a standard for me to aim for.

 

Yes, bowler hats seem to have been a 19th century thing. I can find about ten on men on locos (not necessarily drivers of course) in the 19th century in the Cambrian Album book but only one after that. I really ought to get Rick Green's other books on the Cambrian but they are a bit pricey.

 

Still on people, there is a wonderful photo in Keith Turton's PO wagons volume 12, taken in 1912, of a group of locals in front of a wagon (apparently at the end of a local strike). Definitely not your landed gentry. If you like I will scan it and PM it to you.

 

And on a completely different topic, and probably a long way down the line for you (and probably irrelevant for me, but so  what?) I noticed a mention in the Cambrian Album of signal lamp colours being violet and magenta to avoid confusion with shipping navigation lamps. So I looked it up in Great Western Way, and yes, main line home, starting and distant signals had violet glass for danger and clear for all clear (green after 1916), and subsidiary home, starting and distant signals had magenta for danger and pale green for all clear. And of course home signals had a white circle rather than a stripe. Now can I justify leaving these features unchanged for the single signal on Sarn in the early 1930s (a slotted post home like that which stood at Kerry until very late)?

 

The timber wagons are in the paint shop. Lettering is a bit of a problem as no-one knows anything about Mid Wales Railway liveries except that the wagons were probably pale grey. I may letter them for the Cambrian which took over in 1888 when they were less than 15 years old but I have no idea of numbers or how they were lettered. I'll post a photo in the modelling 19th century wagons thread since I said I would. Tomorrow I hope to pick up a drawing of a much more modern Cambrian Railways version which might have lasted until the 1930s.

 

Keep it up.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

You are too kind about my wagon painting.  The trick is, small brushes, both elbows on the table and fingers that are not holding something touching the one from the other hand so that I do not shake too much, and the whole procedure is done looking through a lighted magnifying glass bought from Hobbycraft while wearing my reading glasses.  Twenty years ago I could do it just under a light! (I ought to say that Mikkel inspired me to modify figures and I have learnt a lot from Jaz's techniques and advice.) 

 

I have looked through the Cambrian Album lots of times but will do so again for bowler hats.  I need to look at ties as well because I think there were no company ties, just peoples' own ties that they wore to work.  It is amazing what I miss.  Which books are Rick Green's ones?

 

If it is not breaking copyright then yes please send me a copy of that photo.

 

Thank you for the information on signals.  I have read it before but I did not know why they had done it plus if I am constantly reminded of these things then I may just remember.  Did they also not have different colours for shunting signals, or am I getting confused?

 

I think, early 1930s, on a tiny branch line, even the GWR could well have missed it, especially if the local men wanted it kept like that as a sign of independence.

 

As for your wagons, I assume you have seen our discussion earlier on wagon numbers.  You could probably just pick a random number as long as the wagon did not last until GWR times.

 

All the best and thank you for your input.

Edited February 6, 2015 by ChrisN

[corneliuslundie]

Rick (C C) Green was writing a series of books about the coast lines of the Cambrian Railways but his last volume covering your area never got finished. The ones that I know about are:

The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 1: Machynlleth to Aberystwyth  including a general history of the Aberystwyth & Welsh Coast Railway, Wild Swan, 1993, ISBN 978-1874103295

The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 2: Dovey Junction to Barmouth Junction and the Dolgelley branch, Wild Swan, 1996, ISBN 978-1874103295

 

  I have just discovered that he also wrote Cambrian Railways, 1859-1947, Specialist Marketing International, 1997, ISBN 9780711025080

 

He also did a Cambrian Railways album Vol 2 but that is in GWR days.

 

Looking at e-bay etc they seem to command rather high prices.

 

Thanks for the reminder of the discussion on numbering. I HAD forgotten.

 

I can't remember about the other signals but I will keep an eye open. Somewhere I saw a description of the type of glass used for the villet glass so there must me more I haven't found this morning.

 

PM to follow when I have got the scanner out.

 

Jonathan

Edited February 6, 2015 by corneliuslundie

[ChrisN]

Rick (C C) Green was writing a series of books about the coast lines of the Cambrian Railways but his last volume covering your area never got finished. The ones that I know about are:

The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 1: Machynlleth to Aberystwyth  including a general history of the Aberystwyth & Welsh Coast Railway, Wild Swan, 1993, ISBN 978-1874103295

The coast lines of the Cambrian Railways: Volume 2: Dovey Junction to Barmouth Junction and the Dolgelley branch, Wild Swan, 1996, ISBN 978-1874103295

 

  I have just discovered that he also wrote Cambrian Railways, 1859-1947, Specialist Marketing International, 1997, ISBN 9780711025080

 

He also did a Cambrian Railways album Vol 2 but that is in GWR days.

 

Looking at e-bay etc they seem to command rather high prices.

 

Thanks for the reminder of the discussion on numbering. I HAD forgotten.

 

I can't remember about the other signals but I will keep an eye open. Somewhere I saw a description of the type of glass used for the villet glass so there must me more I haven't found this morning.

 

PM to follow when I have got the scanner out.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I wondered if Rick Green was C.C Green.  I do have both of those books and I think you can still buy Vol 1 at around £26.00.  I only had Vol 2 but have 'Cambrian' on an eBay search and Vol 1 popped up just before Christmas at less than £20.00.  The books are interesting and have some old photos but the majority of it is photos he took in the 50s and 60s along with track plans plus lots of tit bits of information of what happened at the area he is looking at..

 

His Cambrian Railways 1859- 1947 is a combination volume of his Cambrian Railways volumes 1 & 2.  Guess how I know!  If you want both or either it is always worth looking on eBay regularly as sometimes you will get one that goes for the price yu are willing to pay.

 

I also got for Christmas the Middleton Press book on Barmouth to Pwllheli which is in their usual style of which the maps are the most useful to me plus lots of GWR era photos with some Cambrian era ones too.  On the first page their is a picture that elsewhere is described as Aberdovey but in this book is described as Barmouth.  It is pre 1890 and if it is Barmouth it must be the first station on the coast line that has a footbridge over the line for the passengers.  All interesting stuff.

 

All the best.

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

Bowler hats. Yes, er, umm, I had not noticed them before; I am not sure why.  It is a bit like when I told someone on another thread that I had never seen telegraph poles on the Cambrian.  He said he thought it was strange and I have to admit that I had too so I went off to look at my latest book, 'A New History of the Cambrian Railways'.  The front cover says it all.  Fortunately I did not make my living as a detective!  (This was the first picture that came u when I Googled the subject.)

 

Bowler hats.  I could not see one later than 1891 but as my layout is set only four years later perhaps if I ever get a 4-4-0 passenger loco then the driver will be sporting one.  I assume that as with all railways the more important jobs came with seniority, i.e. age so perhaps he never got out of the habit.

 

Ties.  It looks from the evidence that I have that staff wore their own ties if they wanted to wear a tie so I will now have to think of suitable colours.

[ChrisN]

Following on from our discussions I actually emailed Andrew Stadden who said he had copied the figures from photographs that spanned from 1901 - 1910 although he had seen similar uniforms from 1870 to 1920.  He said the ten figures were made up of 4 porters, 2 ticket collectors, one guard, and 3 Station Masters/Inspectors.

 

Having painted all three bandoliers I was beginning to think that there were two ticket inspectors as their bandoliers was thinner than the other one and they appeared to have tickets in their hands.  (A bit of a give away really.)

 

He also said that his last two H0 sets, 5 & 6 should now be on sale and that he is hoping to make two more sets, loco crew and children.  I must email him back and ask for at least one driver in a bowler hat!

 

As the Prime Minister said who was in power when I was born, "We will fight them on the beaches......."  No sorry, it was much later than that, at the turn of the sixties, "We have never had it so good!"

[Donw]

I also got for Christmas the Middleton Press book on Barmouth to Pwllheli which is in their usual style of which the maps are the most useful to me plus lots of GWR era photos with some Cambrian era ones too.  On the first page their is a picture that elsewhere is described as Aberdovey but in this book is described as Barmouth.  It is pre 1890 and if it is Barmouth it must be the first station on the coast line that has a footbridge over the line for the passengers.  All interesting stuff.

 

All the best.

 

Interesting John Gibbon showed me a photo with a footbridge which he said was at Barmouth which did look very similar. I shall have to ask John if I can remember when I see him. The photo may be in the WRRC archives.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Interesting John Gibbon showed me a photo with a footbridge which he said was at Barmouth which did look very similar. I shall have to ask John if I can remember when I see him. The photo may be in the WRRC archives.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  I think there was a footbridge at Barmouth but the question is 'when was it erected'?  There are very few pictures of footbridges that early on the coast route but if that is proved to be Barmouth then I would need to think abut one at Traeth Mawr.  It does seem a fairly simple construction so would be do-able.

 

The picture appears in two other volumes as somewhere else.  However, I have just stood on the level crossing at Barmouth thanks to Mr Google street view and the two filled arch building looks the same as on the picture but I am not so convinced about the background buildings.  One is a possibility but it must have had its chimneys removed and the one behind it in the photo sticks out so unless it was knocked down and rebuilt a while ago then it is not the same place.  However I think that the chances of it being Barmouth are better than 50-50.

[Donw]

There was (is?) a footbridge over the lines at the other end of the station at Barmouth. However the photo showed one right by what looked like the crossing. In early days crossing would be snormally shut against road traffic so a brdige may have been used more.

Don

[Anotheran]

Hi Chris,

 

When A C Stadden gave you the info re dates of prototypes did he say that his prototypes were all one company, or across a few?

 

Kind regards, Neil

[ChrisN]

There was (is?) a footbridge over the lines at the other end of the station at Barmouth. However the photo showed one right by what looked like the crossing. In early days crossing would be snormally shut against road traffic so a brdige may have been used more.

Don

 

Don,

That may be the picture that I have seen with the gates shut, the loco right next to it and the crew/station staff standing around.  The ballast was over the sleepers which was the practise in stations pre 1890, although I have seen one picture like that in 1891, so it makes the bridge quite early.