Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Edwardian]

The National Archive has GWR loco allocations - they're in a ledger, the sheds they were found at each month are recorded - but the earliest is 1902.

 

I think you just have to take a view to use the earliest records available.

 

They are not digitised. You can request a photocopy, but the service is suspended and the National Archives is unsurprisingly closed at present.

 

Perhaps some parishioner has one of the Edwardian allocation ledgers?

[ChrisN]

21 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The National Archive has GWR loco allocations - they're in a ledger, the sheds they were found at each month are recorded - but the earliest is 1902.

 

I think you just have to take a view to use the earliest records available.

 

They are not digitised. You can request a photocopy, but the service is suspended and the National Archives is unsurprisingly closed at present.

 

Perhaps some parishioner has one of the Edwardian allocation ledgers?

 

James,

Thank you.  Is this the archive at Kew?  Do you have a reference number?  If not I will look through the index later.

Edited April 27, 2020 by ChrisN

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

James,

Thank you.  Is this the archive at Kew?  Do you have a reference number?  If not I will look through the index later.

 

Yes.

 

The reference/link is RAIL 254/60

 

If it's like the one I have (mine is for 1935), it gives the shed that the loco was at each month.  Mainly it's the shed allocated, but sometimes they're caught 'visiting', and it shows when a loco is passing through Swindon Works.  It's a large format and, IIRC, my copy cost me £40 10 years ago.  I'd order the 1902 record for myself and give you the pages you need if I could order it, but Covid has caused the service to be suspended.

 

Boiler records go much further back, as do some repair records, but I'm not aware of these allocation registers going back before 1902.  After that, there's one each year. 

 

Note, if like mine, it does not list by shed, but by loco and it lists the locos numerically, not by class, so where a class is not just a single numerical series, you have to hop about a bit. You'd need to go through the class members noting those based in your area.

[Donw]

On 25/04/2020 at 18:48, Penrhos1920 said:

 

Oh yes it is.  That way if you set yourself a daily posting target you’ll aim to model daily.

 

I think aiming to post daily may be too onerous but setting a target can encourage you to get this done.

 

Don

[southern42]

The 645 is looking good.  It is helpful see how others accomplish things, both enlightening and encouraging.

 

On the topic of posting...I had almost stopped. One GWRd page covered at least to Merry Christmases and Happy New Years with not much in between but uninterrupted time available in Lockdown has given me the motivation to start something knowing I can keep going on a more or less daily basis.  That has given me purpose to restart posting and posting gives me the impetus to keep the modelling going and view the modelling of at least a few others.  I just hope I can keep up the momentum when life goes back to being a bit more erratic.

_________

Best wishes

Polly

[ChrisN]

3 hours ago, southern42 said:

The 645 is looking good.  It is helpful see how others accomplish things, both enlightening and encouraging.

 

On the topic of posting...I had almost stopped. One GWRd page covered at least to Merry Christmases and Happy New Years with not much in between but uninterrupted time available in Lockdown has given me the motivation to start something knowing I can keep going on a more or less daily basis.  That has given me purpose to restart posting and posting gives me the impetus to keep the modelling going and view the modelling of at least a few others.  I just hope I can keep up the momentum when life goes back to being a bit more erratic.

_________

Best wishes

Polly

 

Thank you Polly.

It is amazing what you find when you are not looking for it, or rather you notice something you did not expect.  I have been doing that with these locos and you have been doing it with paint on lamps, and LMS headcodes in old GWR areas.

 

I have dug out my copies of the Great Western Railway Journal to look at the allocations of 517s.  I thought there were none in my area but in 1901 sic there  was one at Bala, running up and down that branch.  However, what intrigued me was where did the locos come from that worked Ruabon to Dolgelley.  Ruabon had a turntable but no shed.  The nearest shed was Gobowen which was probably seven miles away.  I do not have a working timetable but the public timetable only shows trains running between Ruabon and Dolgelley.  Trains from Chester did not go down he line, so unless there was an overnight freight thee must have been a light engine working.  Does anyone know, or where I might find out?

 

I have found the original, or another copy of the loco at Llangollen.  It dates it as 1888, but I am uncertain what exactly the loco is, and I AM CERTAIN that I CANNOT see the filler cap the other side of the dome.  (Argument weak, shout LOUDLY.)  There is also this picture, with a similar loco dated 1910.  I would like to say looking at the ladies fashions that it is earlier than that, I would like to say that but I would be pushing my luck.  So two more interesting pictures.  The first one certainly looks like mine and of the right period although what it actually is I am not sure.

[Donw]

The information of overhangs on GWR saddle tanks was requested as Chris is building one here seems a good place;

 

Wolverhampton Built engines 

Class        DAte built       Front        Rear                                        Total  Nos      

645            1872/3           4ft8in        5ft3in earky 6ft3in later      32     645-654, 656, 757-766, 768-775                            

655            1892-97         5ft             6ft early   6ft6in later           52     655, 767, 1741-50, 1771-90, 2701-20

1501          1878-81        4ft 8in       5ft9in early  6ft6in later       72    1501-65, 1801-12

 

Swindon built engines

1882-4       1813              4ft 9in       6ft                                           40      1813-32, 1834-53

1890-3       1854             4ft9in         6ft6in                                      100    1854-93, 1701-40, 1751-70

1900           2721            4ft 9in        6ft6in                                      58        2721-78

 

Don 

[Northroader]

I’d be inclined to suggest Croes Newydd shed for supplying locos to Ruabon workings?

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

I’d be inclined to suggest Croes Newydd shed for supplying locos to Ruabon workings?

 

Thank you.  When did Croes Newydd open?  I thought it was a little late for my period.

[Northroader]

The “modern” GWR shed at Croes opened in 1902, according to wiki, replaced outdated facilities at Wheatsheaf Junction, but with the amount of activity in the area, some form of centre would have been needed from way back, mineral traffic on the branches, getting it away on the main line, local passenger traffic, as well as the line to Dolgelley.

[ChrisN]

39 minutes ago, Northroader said:

The “modern” GWR shed at Croes opened in 1902, according to wiki, replaced outdated facilities at Wheatsheaf Junction, but with the amount of activity in the area, some form of centre would have been needed from way back, mineral traffic on the branches, getting it away on the main line, local passenger traffic, as well as the line to Dolgelley.

 

Thank you.  It was not clear to me from the Wiki article that Wheatsheaf Junction, had a locomotive shed.  Also, in the list of where 517s were kept, neither Wheatsheaf or Croes Newydd was mentioned in 1901, just one at Gobowen, whereas later in the century, Gobowen still had one but Croes has three.  I shall have to wait until I can see the register in full.

 

I think it was seven miles or so from either shed which still seems a long way from Ruabon.  The map would appear to show a turntable at Ruabon and maybe a coaling stage, although it is difficult to tell as it is a 1:6" and most of Wales was not surveyed at 1:25".  Possible then to fill with coal if necessary during the day but no overnight facilities.

[richbrummitt]

On 27/04/2020 at 11:42, richbrummitt said:

I cannot think of anything in the 113+ (if you count preview and the specials of BRJ) issues. There might be a little in Locomotives Illustrated 118 - that is where the photo of 769 I'm working to came from - but I've only seen the one picture that someone kindly provided to me. 769 is in early 1920s condition and seen at Merthyr. 

 

Following posting this a quick search revealed a copy for sale. From your pov the only picture of possible interest with a 3 section tank is 1555 said to be at Snow Hill in the early years of the century, unless the SWMR ones are any good?

[Edwardian]

15 hours ago, Donw said:

The information of overhangs on GWR saddle tanks was requested as Chris is building one here seems a good place;

 

Wolverhampton Built engines 

Class        DAte built       Front        Rear                                        Total  Nos      

645            1872/3           4ft8in        5ft3in earky 6ft3in later      32     645-654, 656, 757-766, 768-775                            

655            1892-97         5ft             6ft early   6ft6in later           52     655, 767, 1741-50, 1771-90, 2701-20

1501          1878-81        4ft 8in       5ft9in early  6ft6in later       72    1501-65, 1801-12

 

Swindon built engines

1882-4       1813              4ft 9in       6ft                                           40      1813-32, 1834-53

1890-3       1854             4ft9in         6ft6in                                      100    1854-93, 1701-40, 1751-70

1900           2721            4ft 9in        6ft6in                                      58        2721-78

 

Don 

 

That is very helpful, thank you Don.

 

I wonder if "later" means "extended later" or "later builds"?

 

If the latter, it brings me back to the suggestion of a 645 of the 1801-1812 series (which were the first to be built with polished brass domes):

 

Class                            Front overhang          Rear overhang           Notes

645 (1801 series)       4'8"                               6'6" (assumed)          Potential subject

1854 (1701 series)     4'9"                               6'6"                              Donor body

 

We're not the men to quibble over 0.33mm at the front end.

 

Tah dah!  No.1805 with W3 boiler with large mid position dome (polished brass of a similar pattern to yours) and 6-section (U6) tank, with which she was built (in 1881) and as she remained until receiving a S4 boiler in April 1900.  

 

 

Now, looking at 1805 (above), I would say that the rear frame overhang is noticeably longer than on the early 645 Class, No.765 (below), so, I would conclude that the 1801 series was built with the longer rear overhang that should match the Stafford Road Models body for the Swindon tank.

 

 

EDIT: A picture of 1555 in the early years of the century does not assist.  As built she had a W3 boiler and U6 tank (though not with a nice shiny dome like 1805), being in 1896 fitted with a S4 boiler, which is a possible combination with a U3 tank, as apparently captured in the Snow Hill picture. That would give her a rear-boiler dome position, about the centre of the tank.

 

All 645s were built with W3 boilers, only a handful of early the locos would have changed theirs by 1895.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Edwardian

[richbrummitt]

42 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

EDIT: A picture of 1555 in the early years of the century does not assist.  As built she had a W3 boiler and U6 tank (though not with a nice shiny dome like 1805), being in 1896 fitted with a S4 boiler, which is a possible combination with a U3 tank, as apparently captured in the Snow Hill picture. That would give her a rear-boiler dome position, about the centre of the tank.

 

All 645s were built with W3 boilers, only a handful of early the locos would have changed theirs by 1895.

 

 

 

I thought not. My post was more to let Chris know it was not worth following up the LI118 any further. 

 

The 645s that were built with full length tanks were the 1501 series, which we appear to be considering separately. 

[southern42]

3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Thank you.  It was not clear to me from the Wiki article that Wheatsheaf Junction, had a locomotive shed.  Also, in the list of where 517s were kept, neither Wheatsheaf or Croes Newydd was mentioned in 1901, just one at Gobowen, whereas later in the century, Gobowen still had one but Croes has three.  I shall have to wait until I can see the register in full.

 

I think it was seven miles or so from either shed which still seems a long way from Ruabon.  The map would appear to show a turntable at Ruabon and maybe a coaling stage, although it is difficult to tell as it is a 1:6" and most of Wales was not surveyed at 1:25".  Possible then to fill with coal if necessary during the day but no overnight facilities.

 

If this helps.

In E.Lyons 'Great Western Engine Sheds 1837-1947' p.156 Ruabon, the diagram shows turntable (35ft) and engine shed (90ft x 20ft)  though the track is assumed.  Date 1846 (opened) - 1854 (closed), so a coaling stage looks likely. No allocations give (unknown).

Polly

 

 

[ChrisN]

52 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

That is very helpful, thank you Don.

 

I wonder if "later" means "extended later" or "later builds"?

 

If the latter, it brings me back to the suggestion of a 645 of the 1801-1812 series (which were the first to be built with polished brass domes):

 

Class                            Front overhang          Rear overhang           Notes

645 (1801 series)       4'8"                               6'6" (assumed)          Potential subject

1854 (1701 series)     4'9"                               6'6"                              Donor body

 

We're not the men to quibble over 0.33mm at the front end.

 

Tah dah!  No.1805 with W3 boiler with large mid position dome (polished brass of a similar pattern to yours) and 6-section (U6) tank, with which she was built (in 1881) and as she remained until receiving a S4 boiler in April 1900.  

 

 

Now, looking at 1805 (above), I would say that the rear frame overhang is noticeably longer than on the early 645 Class, No.765 (below), so, I would conclude that the 1801 series was built with the longer rear overhang that should match the Stafford Road Models body for the Swindon tank.

 

EDIT: A picture of 1555 in the early years of the century does not assist.  As built she had a W3 boiler and U6 tank (though not with a nice shiny dome like 1805), being in 1896 fitted with a S4 boiler, which is a possible combination with a U3 tank, as apparently captured in the Snow Hill picture. That would give her a rear-boiler dome position, about the centre of the tank.

 

All 645s were built with W3 boilers, only a handful of early the locos would have changed theirs by 1895.

 

 

 

James,

Thank you.  That looks to be the same type of locomotive as here, which I posted yesterday, except this one only has three sections.  Both have the filler cap between the dome and the valves, which is annoying but not insurmountable.  The tank looks higher than mine as do others I have seen so I must assume that the tank style I have is later, but that of all things I cannot change.  Although it is a U6 tank I can only see two rows of rivets, which I have seen on others as well, plus one with four obvious sections, and one, 1810, with six.  I could not model the pipe under the tank as there is not enough room.

 

The chimney appears taller than the one I have, although I bought the tallest one that Alan Gibson had.  If you know where to get taller ones please let me know.  

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Following posting this a quick search revealed a copy for sale. From your pov the only picture of possible interest with a 3 section tank is 1555 said to be at Snow Hill in the early years of the century, unless the SWMR ones are any good?

 

1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

 

I thought not. My post was more to let Chris know it was not worth following up the LI118 any further. 

 

The 645s that were built with full length tanks were the 1501 series, which we appear to be considering separately. 

 

Thank you, for clarifying that as I might have gone chasing after a copy.  I do have a side view of an SWMR one and it appears to be in a rebuilt condition.

 

Does it have shed allocations by any chance please?

[ChrisN]

 

1 hour ago, southern42 said:

 

If this helps.

In E.Lyons 'Great Western Engine Sheds 1837-1947' p.156 Ruabon, the diagram shows turntable (35ft) and engine shed (90ft x 20ft)  though the track is assumed.  Date 1846 (opened) - 1854 (closed), so a coaling stage looks likely. No allocations give (unknown).

Polly

 

 

 

Thank you Polly,

The turntable was still there at the end of the century.  I would be most interested in how they actually worked the line.

 

I have the Middleton book of Ruabon to Barmouth and unlike most it is quite unhelpful.  (To be clear/fair it does not mention a turntable and there are no pictures earlier than grouping and no saddle tanks.)

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

James,

Thank you.  That looks to be the same type of locomotive as here, which I posted yesterday, except this one only has three sections.  Both have the filler cap between the dome and the valves, which is annoying but not insurmountable.  The tank looks higher than mine as do others I have seen so I must assume that the tank style I have is later, but that of all things I cannot change.  Although it is a U6 tank I can only see two rows of rivets, which I have seen on others as well, plus one with four obvious sections, and one, 1810, with six.  I could not model the pipe under the tank as there is not enough room.

 

The chimney appears taller than the one I have, although I bought the tallest one that Alan Gibson had.  If you know where to get taller ones please let me know.  

 

Your picture, if it indeed  dates from 1888 ....

 

 

... it is not a 645 Class. It doesn't date from 1888, and I don't think it's a 645!

 

645s were built with W3 boilers and short 5-section tanks.  1501s were built with W3 boilers and full length 6-section tanks.  None had been rebuilt by 1888.

 

This is, as you say, a 3-section/U3 tank. It's a mid-dome position, with leading edge of resting on the first section joint (front to rear), which suggests to me this has a S2/3 or R2/3 boiler.  

 

This presents your caption writer with a bit of a problem. U3 tanks do not seem to have been introduced until 1895, initially at Swindon.

 

645s were often reboilered with front-position domed S2 or R2 boilers.  These could  be combined with a U3 tank - though not, of course, by 1895 - with the domes positioned astride the first joint in the tank. No 645s appear to have been fitted with mid-dome S2/3 or R2/3 boilers. 

 

It looks to me as if this might be one of the Wolverhampton 2021 Class, built 1897-1901 with an U3 tank and R2/3 boiler.

 

The picture of 1805 I posted does show a U6/6-section boiler, but you have to look very carefully to see it!

 

I need to make a correction to my previous post, the 1501s were built with 5'9" rear frame overhangs, so that is probably what we see in the picture of 1805.  If to scale, your 1701 donor is likely to be 9" or 3mm too long at the rear. 

 

EDIT: Look at the buildings in the background.  Twentieth Century views tend to show the large gabled building obscured by a footbridge and canopy, but that's not the original signal box I think; it looks like a GW standard design, which only came in in the second half of the 1890s. Thus, if you know the history of the station's development (I don't) you could probably narrow down the date range considerably.  1888 it ain't, however.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Edwardian
More gen

[Penrhos1920]

On 27/04/2020 at 13:28, Edwardian said:

The National Archive has GWR loco allocations - they're in a ledger, the sheds they were found at each month are recorded - but the earliest is 1902.

 

I think you just have to take a view to use the earliest records available.

 

They are not digitised. You can request a photocopy, but the service is suspended and the National Archives is unsurprisingly closed at present.

 

Perhaps some parishioner has one of the Edwardian allocation ledgers?

 

 

I have a copy of some years but my earliest year is 9 years post Edwardian, if that is any help.  They’re loads of jpg per year.

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

 

Thank you, for clarifying that as I might have gone chasing after a copy.  I do have a side view of an SWMR one and it appears to be in a rebuilt condition.

 

Does it have shed allocations by any chance please?

 

Nothing so helpful. It does give some dates for SWMR engines. Post 1910 they were replaced with 1501. The opening piece tells how very little information was either recorded or kept alongside the photographs hence even many of the locations have had to be deduced or are not known. 

[Mikkel]

I've only just seen you cabside mod Chris, very neat job, can't have been easy. On the loco more generally, I agree with your approach. My own new motto is: Build more, worry less. Well that's the principle at least 

 

On 27/04/2020 at 00:41, ChrisN said:

To answer my own question in my last update, I think the answer should be you should update when you are not able to b modelling.

 

Brilliantly put!

[ChrisN]

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Your picture, if it indeed  dates from 1888 ....

 

 

... it is not a 645 Class. It doesn't date from 1888, and I don't think it's a 645!

 

645s were built with W3 boilers and short 5-section tanks.  1501s were built with W3 boilers and full length 6-section tanks.  None had been rebuilt by 1888.

 

This is, as you say, a 3-section/U3 tank. It's a mid-dome position, with leading edge of resting on the first section joint (front to rear), which suggests to me this has a S2/3 or R2/3 boiler.  

 

This presents your caption writer with a bit of a problem. U3 tanks do not seem to have been introduced until 1895, initially at Swindon.

 

645s were often reboilered with front-position domed S2 or R2 boilers.  These could  be combined with a U3 tank - though not, of course, by 1895 - with the domes positioned astride the first joint in the tank. No 645s appear to have been fitted with mid-dome S2/3 or R2/3 boilers. 

 

It looks to me as if this might be one of the Wolverhampton 2021 Class, built 1897-1901 with an U3 tank and R2/3 boiler.

 

The picture of 1805 I posted does show a U6/6-section boiler, but you have to look very carefully to see it!

 

I need to make a correction to my previous post, the 1501s were built with 5'9" rear frame overhangs, so that is probably what we see in the picture of 1805.  If to scale, your 1701 donor is likely to be 9" or 3mm too long at the rear. 

 

EDIT: Look at the buildings in the background.  Twentieth Century views tend to show the large gabled building obscured by a footbridge and canopy, but that's not the original signal box I think; it looks like a GW standard design, which only came in in the second half of the 1890s. Thus, if you know the history of the station's development (I don't) you could probably narrow down the date range considerably.  1888 it ain't, however.

 

 

 

James,

Thank you.  I have taken a while to reply for three reasons.  

1) It was quite a long and involved post, (not complaining), so I was making sure I understood it.

2) I was watching Poirot at the time so made 1 more difficult.

3) Taking a leaf out of my own advice I decided to model and reply when I either could not model or should be doing something else.

 

This is just to say I appreciate your input and the trouble you have gone to.

 

I did wonder about that picture.  I looked at their uniforms and they could be 1888 or ten years or so later.  Shame we do not have a young lady in the latest fashion in it as that would nail the date better.  My feeling was it was not a 645 if it was 1888, but it looks the part.  The bridge is not in the 1891 6 inch map but it is in the 25 inch map revised in 1910.  The GWR uniforms were changed in 1902 and these look to be before that.  Of course I am sure the GWR did not send out new uniforms to everyone at the start but the Station Master appears in what I think is the old uniform and I am sure he would have wanted to keep up appearances.

 

The signal box was built in 1898.

 

So where are we?  Or rather where am I?  I can de-Swindonise the loco as much as I can.  I can chose a number that had a long boiler in 1895.  I can put rivet details on it to make it look like any number of sections on the tank.  Sadly, unless I can find a picture of a loco with a long boiler with the filler cap near the front, I will have to move it further back.

 

However, it would appear, unless I find contrary evidence, that the tank is the wrong shape, and should have wing plates at the front which would not work with the tank I have.  The overhang is a known problem and I thought for a moment you had got me out of that one.  If the body was secured by a screw I would hack the chassis and the body, but it is a clip fit, so cutting the body would probably weaken it enough to make the fit unstable, i.e., it would be liable to break easily.

 

The chimney is too short and the wrong style so I will need to source one of those, any help be gratefully received.

 

(Must go and do something now so will reply to the other posts later.)

[Edwardian]

4 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

James,

Thank you.  I have taken a while to reply for three reasons.  

1) It was quite a long and involved post, (not complaining), so I was making sure I understood it.

2) I was watching Poirot at the time so made 1 more difficult.

3) Taking a leaf out of my own advice I decided to model and reply when I either could not model or should be doing something else.

 

This is just to say I appreciate your input and the trouble you have gone to.

 

I did wonder about that picture.  I looked at their uniforms and they could be 1888 or ten years or so later.  Shame we do not have a young lady in the latest fashion in it as that would nail the date better.  My feeling was it was not a 645 if it was 1888, but it looks the part.  The bridge is not in the 1891 6 inch map but it is in the 25 inch map revised in 1910.  The GWR uniforms were changed in 1902 and these look to be before that.  Of course I am sure the GWR did not send out new uniforms to everyone at the start but the Station Master appears in what I think is the old uniform and I am sure he would have wanted to keep up appearances.

 

The signal box was built in 1898.

 

So where are we?  Or rather where am I?  I can de-Swindonise the loco as much as I can.  I can chose a number that had a long boiler in 1895.  I can put rivet details on it to make it look like any number of sections on the tank.  Sadly, unless I can find a picture of a loco with a long boiler with the filler cap near the front, I will have to move it further back.

 

However, it would appear, unless I find contrary evidence, that the tank is the wrong shape, and should have wing plates at the front which would not work with the tank I have.  The overhang is a known problem and I thought for a moment you had got me out of that one.  If the body was secured by a screw I would hack the chassis and the body, but it is a clip fit, so cutting the body would probably weaken it enough to make the fit unstable, i.e., it would be liable to break easily.

 

The chimney is too short and the wrong style so I will need to source one of those, any help be gratefully received.

 

(Must go and do something now so will reply to the other posts later.)

 

So, we date the picture c.1900, and withing the 1898-1902 probable range.  that fits with a new or newish looking 2021 Class.

 

And is, therefore, of no help to you!!!

 

I'm sorry, I seem to offering problems rather than solutions.

 

If it were me, I'd be tempted to bribe one of our mutual friends to draw up a 645 of the 1501, U6 tank, ilk in CAD.  Pick the right one and you use that very nice brass dome you have!

[ChrisN]

18 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

 

I have a copy of some years but my earliest year is 9 years post Edwardian, if that is any help.  They’re loads of jpg per year.

 

Thank you, but they are probably too late for me.  I have seen the shed allocation for Machynlleth for August 1894 and again for 1898 and although the numbers of locos are nearly the same and the distribution of classes is nearly identical, (it had one extra loco in that time), only two engines remained on shed between the two dates, so dates much later than I want would not be that helpful.  Thank you very much though.

 

(Aside:  There is a shed allocation for Mach in both 1894 and 1898, but I have seen shed allocations for Pwllheli, Portmadog, and Penmanpool for 1898 but not for the earlier date.  Where is that information, and who might have it, apart from trawling through the Kew Archive?)