Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Edwardian]

Great pictures on that site, Chris.  Mr Stead is, perhaps, sporting his uniform for the camera in later, freer and more well to do times.  otherwise, he has a remarkably well appointed cell.  Mr Bridger would envy him.

 

Speaking of Mr Bridger ("everyone in the world is bent"), as I have a Great Western bent ("a Great Western bent what..?"), I should have thought immediately of the Princetown Branch - surely there must be some available information regarding transit of prisoners thence?  

 

There is a whole subject here to be researched. Presumably, there are gaols at certain urban centres where the Assizes are held, often as part of the court complex?.  Is there transport between other prison locations and towns holding assizes?  Are prisoners taken from big town gaols to hearings, or to hearings from local cells at, may be, police stations or town halls?  Are prisoners taken from courts to prisons some distance away in another town?  Are prisoners transferred from one prison to another?

 

When and where, in all this, are the Broad Arrow suits issued?  I assume after arrival at the bigger prisons?

Edited January 7, 2016 by Edwardian

[Quarryscapes]

What are the Dart Castings lamp-top castings like, quality-wise? 

I've got some old Cavendish lamp-tops and some others of uncertain origin (Gibson?) and they are so badly cast only about a quarter of them are useable and even they require a lot of fettling and poor eyesight to be considered acceptable.

 

They're nice castings, I got a load for my 4 wheelers and such.

 

As for the matter of GC through trains, this page should help http://www.railchronology.free-online.co.uk/Ellesmere%20loop.htm

[ChrisN]

I know the Police like their officers to be above a certain height but that does look a bit excessive. I wonder if the idea of Prison warders escorting prisoners to court may be a new idea and that in old days it would have been the Police. Certainly your idea of re-captured escapees would be in Police hands. You could of course use Modellers licence to invent a prison in that area specialising in hard labour. Plenty of rocks to break up! I am enjoying this as usual with your thread.

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  Yes he is a little oversize.  It is a shame as some MRD figures are quite good, others are indifferent and so are just to big.  I am assuming the police would escort male prisoners but I saw a female figure I could modify and then had the problem of how she is escorted on transport.  To do it justice I need to read around it but there are other more important things at the moment.  I have googled for 'Victorian Prisons Wales' but it did not show anything useful, and searches for 'Prisons Wales' show the modern ones, three of which go back to the Victorian period.  There appear to have been none in North Wales.  You may be right, perhaps I will have to invent one.

[ChrisN]

Great pictures on that site, Chris.  Mr Stead is, perhaps, sporting his uniform for the camera in later, freer and more well to do times.  otherwise, he has a remarkably well appointed cell.  Mr Bridger would envy him.

 

Speaking of Mr Bridger ("everyone in the world is bent"), as I have a Great Western bent ("a Great Western bent what..?"), I should have thought immediately of the Princetown Branch - surely there must be some available information regarding transit of prisoners thence?  

 

There is a whole subject here to be researched. Presumably, there are gaols at certain urban centres where the Assizes are held, often as part of the court complex?.  Is there transport between other prison locations and towns holding assizes?  Are prisoners taken from big town gaols to hearings, or to hearings from local cells at, may be, police stations or town halls?  Are prisoners taken from courts to prisons some distance away in another town?  Are prisoners transferred from one prison to another?

 

When and where, in all this, are the Broad Arrow suits issued?  I assume after arrival at the bigger prisons?

 

Edwardian,

Yes, a whole new area to investigate.  I tried Googling 'Assizes Wales' and the North Wales which included Merioneth was linked with Chester but I was unable in my quick search to find out where it travelled.  I hoped it went to Harlech so there was a route then via Traeth Mawr and Dolgelley to Liverpool and thence Scotland.  I assume Oscar Wilde was sent from the Old Bailey to Pentonville, as I think Newgate no longer existed then, and from there to Reading so that is why he was in prison uniform.  I would also assume that perhaps there were cells attached to the courts where the guilty were kept after their verdict.  All very interesting.

 

Yes, this picture of Mr Stead is fairly obviously after the event to show off his uniform.  I am surprised that he managed to keep it, although he may have had it made especially.  There is another one of him with his forage cap, and it appears to be a lighter shade.  More questions and no answers.

[ChrisN]

They're nice castings, I got a load for my 4 wheelers and such.

 

As for the matter of GC through trains, this page should help http://www.railchronology.free-online.co.uk/Ellesmere%20loop.htm

 

Quarryscapes,

Thank you.  I took the through coaches from the GC from the 1904 list, and back dated it.  The coaches to Barmouth came from Manchester London Road via Wrexham, although it appears to run every day which is not what the article on the link says..  It is interesting that in 1896 there is no mention of Barmouth, and that on some trains there was a brake third as well as a composite.  Also when carriages were detained overnight the Cambrian did one day and the other company the other day.  Apart from the London trains I was hoping to use 'foreign' coaches to add variety but it appears that there will be less of these.

[emt_911]

I wonder if this might help Chris

 

http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/page11361-types-of-punishment-imprisonment.html

[ChrisN]

I wonder if this might help Chris

 

http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/page11361-types-of-punishment-imprisonment.html

 

Duncan,

Thank you, it is very interesting.  I notice that hey have a special section for teachers! 

 

I also found this on Beaumaris Courthouse and prison.  There is a picture of a lady in shackles, that appears as though several prisoners could be held together for transport from prison to the courthouse.  It would appear that this court and prison, and the court and prison at Aberystwyth were the only ones in the area.

 

EDIT:  oops, I forgot to put in the link.

Edited January 7, 2016 by ChrisN

[emt_911]

Another thought that I've had comes from watching Time Team a few years ago.

 

They excavated part of a police station somewhere up north. The station was also a local gaol as far as I remember. I wonder if it was the same in areas of Wales as well?

[Simond]

I thought this was common in many Police stations, not that I have any insider knowledge, you understand!

 

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

Another thought that I've had comes from watching Time Team a few years ago.

 

They excavated part of a police station somewhere up north. The station was also a local gaol as far as I remember. I wonder if it was the same in areas of Wales as well?

 

Duncan,

I think you are probably right.  What I am gleaning from reading is that in 1870 (?) or so the prison service was nationalised and small gaols began to be replaced.  Now all police stations have cells, but I wonder how long people were kept in there once sentenced.  If it was a short one did they serve it there?  I am fairly certain that the gentleman being escorted spent the previous night in the cells at Traeth Mawr. 

 

(I am just about to go through another case study from your link.)

[ChrisN]

I thought this was common in many Police stations, not that I have any insider knowledge, you understand!

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

I am sure we have all watched, Dixon of Dock Green, Z Cars, Inspector Barlow, The Sweeny, Inspector Morse.................

 

They all had cells in the police stations.

 

(Sorry, there ought to be a quip but I cannot think of one.)

[Simond]

And of course, many westerns too.

 

I guess the question is not "cells" which suggest temporary accommodation, pre-trial, but "gaol" which, as Toad found out, implies something rather longer term.

 

Best

Simon

[corneliuslundie]

Certainly Harpenden old police station had cells. I think the one here in Newtown did too. I could ask as it is being turned into apartments.

 

And in the summer we visited a village on the Somerset coast where there used to be a gaol at the end of a row of buildings. It can't have been much more than a single room..

 

Google doesn't seem to turn it up and I can't remember which village it was, though i can envisage it. But there seems to be several old Norfolk gaols which are holiday cottages.

 

Jonathan

 

Edited because my wife told me it was Watchet in Somerset, not Norfolk at all.

 

A possible source of information is the Judges Lodgingsd Museumn, Presteigne http://www.judgeslodging.org.uk/There were apparently cells there.

Edited January 8, 2016 by corneliuslundie

[Penlan]

What have I started by mentioning the broad arrows..... 

[ChrisN]

What have I started by mentioning the broad arrows..... 

 

er?  Another interesting discussion?

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Chris, All,

Sorry I'm late to the party as usual!

I don't have any experience of old Police Stations, only new ones! (I used to work for Derbys Constabulary as a civvy!) but the Police requirement for height used to be 5'9" (except for N.I.) and I *think* that may have come down since the old days!

Certainly the old section inspector at Derby North could have passed for your officer, he was about 6'8" and 'well made'! Quite an exceptional height though! There were certainly plenty of 6 footers about, maybe about 15-20% of the force were about that height.

Operating procedures such as handling of arrested persons, I'm sure would have been vastly different from over 100 years ago - we had outlying stations that were little more than converted residential houses, such persons would never be taken there, only straight to Derby HQ which had it's own 'mini prison' built in.

However, there was a 'museum' for mainly the old 'city' force, prior to the 'city' and 'county' forces being amalgamated, perhaps there is such a museum for your area?

Cheers,

John.

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris, All,

Sorry I'm late to the party as usual!

I don't have any experience of old Police Stations, only new ones! (I used to work for Derbys Constabulary as a civvy!) but the Police requirement for height used to be 5'9" (except for N.I.) and I *think* that may have come down since the old days!

Certainly the old section inspector at Derby North could have passed for your officer, he was about 6'8" and 'well made'! Quite an exceptional height though! There were certainly plenty of 6 footers about, maybe about 15-20% of the force were about that height.

Operating procedures such as handling of arrested persons, I'm sure would have been vastly different from over 100 years ago - we had outlying stations that were little more than converted residential houses, such persons would never be taken there, only straight to Derby HQ which had it's own 'mini prison' built in.

However, there was a 'museum' for mainly the old 'city' force, prior to the 'city' and 'county' forces being amalgamated, perhaps there is such a museum for your area?

Cheers,

John.

 

John,

Thank you.

 

I had a colleague who was Scottish and is about 5ft 6".  He said he was trying to join the City of London Police.  I thought at the time that the City Police height limit was 5ft 10" as compared to the Met's 5ft 8".  I said I thought he was not tall enough, to which he replied, "Height reduction for ethnic minorities."   Since when have............

 

I have searched museums for prisons, now to try police. 

[mike morley]

Close to the railway in Barmouth is a small, very modellable building that I'm 99% certain was once the town lock-up.

 

And I know what you mean about MRD figures - some are excellent, others are indifferent.

The same goes for Falcon figures, but with a rather lower "excellent" percentage.

[mike morley]

www.geograph.org.uk/photo/185731

www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2438341

 

Apologies if the links don't work, but the keyboard on my new laptop has packed up after just a month and the on-screen keyboard is not the easiest thing to use.

Edited January 8, 2016 by mike morley

[ChrisN]

Close to the railway in Barmouth is a small, very modellable building that I'm 99% certain was once the town lock-up.

 

And I know what you mean about MRD figures - some are excellent, others are indifferent.

The same goes for Falcon figures, but with a rather lower "excellent" percentage.

 

 

www.geograph.org.uk/photo/185731

www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2438341

 

Apologies if the links don't work, but the keyboard on my new laptop has packed up after just a month and the on-screen keyboard is not the easiest thing to use.

 

Mike,

Thank you for this.  I have seen the building on Google but did not know what it was.  It is interesting that it was used until the police station was opened so the police station must have had cells.

 

Still cannot find any courts closer than Beaumaris and Aberystwyth.

 

Keyboard packing up after a month sounds like it needs to go back.  Hope it gets sorted soon.

[Donw]

I am pretty sure that most police stations of any size would have had some cells to hold anyone arrested. These would not have held long term prisoners. Town Goals were often earlier before there were modern police forces. I think these started to be needed as places were given borough charters which took them out of the former control so they needed somewhere to hold apprehended troublemakers. 

Don

[ChrisN]

Now I have been continuing with the shelter, so that you know I am still modelling, but I have also been finding out about Welsh Courts.  You need to know what to 'query' on Google to get the right answer so it has been a bit of a wandering round to find the right information. 

 

It would appear that before 1830 there was a North Wales Assize Circuit and for Merioneth there was a court held regularly at either Bala or Dolegelley.  There is still a Magistrates Court in Dolgellau and a Crown Court, administered from Mold is still held there.  So in 1895 the list of Courts would be, Aberystwyrh, Beaumaris, Caernarfon and Dolgelley.  There was a Prison at Beaumaris.

 

I also looked for police museums and found a couple of videos to watch while making bread.  There was one from Bradford where they brought in a women for larceny, (nicking stuff), and took you through the whole process, of detention and trial until she was sentenced.  Bradford police station was attached to the court so no help in transfer of prisoners.  However, they had a matron who looked after the prisoner, so it appears that at least larger police stations had women to look after the female prisoners.

 

Now where does that leave my felon?  If he had been tried at Dolgelley he could be on his way to Beaumaris, but he would probably not be in uniform.  If he was already a prisoner then he could be going for further trial, but why not Caernarfon unless he committed that crime in Dolgelley and it would be easier for the witnesses to get to that court.  Of course he could just be a recaptured prisoner being taken back.  The only difference it makes is what platform I put in on.

Edited January 9, 2016 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

A brief update.  I have not had much time recently but progress has been slowly made on the shelter.  The painting and varnishing has been done on the wooden panels and they are ready I think for the frames and the glazing.  I have also cut up enough strips to make the roof.  Having cut them up I began to wonder if they are a millimetre or two short.  I measured my mock up and they are the right size but the mock up does not have the 'sticky out bit' of the roof over the valence. Maybe I should have done a drawing as well as a mock up.  Still I have offered all the bits up and with my narrow platform it would appear to be just the right size for the valance to drip scale raindrops down the back of peoples necks as they leave the shelter to get on the train, so at least fairly prototypical of valences at some stations.  The roof would have been covered in tar paper s that will add to the length a little. 

 

I have finally glued the three section of valance together; I did a picture but it was not worth putting up really.  Making the roof out of strips means that during construction that the whole thing is quite fragile.  It would have been easier with a one piece roof but maybe not as close to the prototype.  The original does not have a floor except the platform so I thought about using a piece of cork which was recommended as the platform surface, cut to the width of the platform and then either the size of the shelter of just as a length so that the join may not be as noticeable.  There are two problems with this, firstly I will have to paint the cork yellowy grey, so I will need to get some paint, and secondly it will make fitting and painting the supports quite difficult so I am going to work from either end towards the middle and build up the roof supports as I go, and when that is done put the floor in before fitting the valance and roof.

 

I have some thoughts on modelling tar paper but any others would be welcome.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[ChrisN]

Serious question.  I have looked again at Donw's pictures of Barmouth. The platform side appears to have courses of stone topped with four courses of brick.  I thought this was proof that in fact like many Cambrian stations the platform was low to start with and then raised up by about a foot.  However, the station building appears to run out directly onto the platform.  If it had been raised then I would have expected a step up and short doors.  Am I correct in thinking then that this is the original height or have I missed something?

[Donw]

Interesting point Chris. I cannot remember if the Buildings were there originally. We need some early picture of Bartmouth

Don