Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Saloons are strange things, lots of different types, and lots of different layouts. You could get away with it, because, lets face it, who will know now?

 

A couple of places worth looking would be to contact the present owner of Buckingham, as I presume that the Rev Denny used drawings to make his stock, so hopefully that paperwork has survived. Is there a GC soc? If so they might have some drawings.

 

I'll also check in Jenkinsons British railway carriages of the 20th century, lots of handy 3mm/ft drawings in there!

 

The great thing about the cutter is that you can do panel layers easily (which is the reason I bought mine) and now I have a method of construction it is easy, if slow, to make a coach up.

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

I will work on the basis that if an eyewitness comes forward and tells me I am wrong I will change it. 

 

Societies.  I have googled for a CGR or MS&LR society but found nothing.  Then your post reminded me of the list on the thread in the Pre-Group section  and one is there.  They have a number of diagrams of MS&LR coaches.  I will contact them and see if a non member can buy any, or if not what is te process for a member to obtain them.  Several look distinct possibilities.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Chris,

The present owner of Buckingham is Tony Gee (t.b.g. on here), seems a pleasant and knowledgeable chap, I'm sure he'd be happy to help if he could.

A happy new year to you and yours,

John.

[ChrisN]

I had a quick look through Peter Denny's two volumes on Buckingham during a rather late breakfast. As far as I can see he built six MS&L 6-wheelers, of which he says "There was still less information about coaching stock at the turn of the century. My Sheffield friend, Stan Taylor, sent me a drawing of a six wheel coach and some photographs he had taken, and with these I built my first three coaches in 1947." I am not sure when the other three were built.

 

Now this is slightly puzzling as the photo shows two composites and a full brake.

 

At the end of volume 1 he refers to converting Triang clerestories for the GCR.

 

In Part 2 he describes his construction methods, but the photos are of bogie carriages. He also built a rake of ex LDEC 6-wheelers but does not give the source of the drawings and they are no use to you anyway.

 

He refers to the three volume history by George Dow as a useful source of information but I don't have them.

 

And yes, the current owner of Buckingham is active here on RMWeb. He often contributes to the Tony Wright thread in the Miscellany section..

 

Did Dan Pinnock produce any carriage kits for the GCR? It would seem to be a railway which he might have covered.

 

And yes, the is an active Great Central Society: http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/It has an archive (though see the note on the website about rebuilding). And these should be drawings to suit you:

MSLR Open luggage composite - 1887 Drwg No. 825-C

MSLR Open lav. Composite - 1885-7 Drwg No. 665-C

MSLR Open lav. Luggage composite - 1888

 

You'll just have to be patient.

 

You can always be relied on for an interesting and useful diversion.

 

Did you see the 2mm 3-D printed Cambrian vehicle in the WRRC newsletter.? I assume he could easily do it in 4mm.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I cross posted I am afraid.  I had the page open as I was doing things and posted after you did as I was doing two things at once as usual.  I saw the list of coaches and did wonder which ones I would need.  These seemed to fit the bill but I was not sure as there might be others but I think these were the only ones with lavatories. Very important on a long journey to Wales, although they came via Dolgelley so only the last bit was on the Cambrian. 

 

Dan Pinnock? Did he trade under his own name?  Sorry to be dense.

 

Thank you.  I did see the 2mm brake van.  It is made by Quarryscapes and he does a 4mm version.  I nearly bought one then he realised and told me the original was a cut and shut affair of two other coaches and ran on one of the branches but it was not built until the 20th century.

[ChrisN]

ChrisN, with all the things your thinking of adding to the train set,

you will soon need a room the size of Pete Waterman's..

 

Shhh!  Don't tell the wife. 

[Simond]

Same problem

 

0 gauge...

 

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

The present owner of Buckingham is Tony Gee (t.b.g. on here), seems a pleasant and knowledgeable chap, I'm sure he'd be happy to help if he could.

A happy new year to you and yours,

John.

 

John,

Thank you.  He posts on some of the threads I follow so may contact him.

 

Happy New Year to you as well.

[Penlan]

I did contact t-b-g yesterday, highlighting this thread.

[ChrisN]

I did contact t-b-g yesterday, highlighting this thread.

 

Penlan,

Thank you, that is very kind.

[corneliuslundie]

Dan Pinnock traded as D&S Models. There was a little logo on his packs rather like a mouse. He did a lot of kits but retiured a few years ago. I think some of his kits were taken over by others but not all, and he still does limited editions occasionally.

 

I found this on RMWeb:

 

Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:50

I have been informed by a member of the GCR Society that some of the GCR stock (etched products anyway) are to be taken over by the Society for production.

 

I have seen short lists of kits he has made available as limited runs, but not recently. And there has been nothing on that thread for eight months.

 

And on the Scalefour Society:

16 Feb 2011
The Great Central Railway Society is in the final stages of taking over manufacture and distribution of the following ex-D&S etched 4mm kits:-

DS 60 - GCR Long Open Wagon (Cast)
DS 69 - GCR 15t Brake Van
DS 68 - GCR 15t Long Wheelbase Van
DS 73 - GCR GCR Louvered Milk Van
DS 74 - GCR Clerestory Meat Van
DS 75 - LD&ECR Horse Box
DS 77 - GCR 4 wheel CCT
DS 58 - GCR Parker 3rd 45ft Carriage
DS 59 - GCR Parker 3rd Brake 45ft Carriage."

I think you have to be a member to buy these at a discounted price.

 

I hope that helps.

 

His contact details are on UK Modelshops website.

 

Jonathan

 

[ChrisN]

 

Dan Pinnock traded as D&S Models. There was a little logo on his packs rather like a mouse. He did a lot of kits but retiured a few years ago. I think some of his kits were taken over by others but not all, and he still does limited editions occasionally.

 

I found this on RMWeb:

 

Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:50

I have been informed by a member of the GCR Society that some of the GCR stock (etched products anyway) are to be taken over by the Society for production.

 

I have seen short lists of kits he has made available as limited runs, but not recently. And there has been nothing on that thread for eight months.

 

And on the Scalefour Society:

16 Feb 2011

The Great Central Railway Society is in the final stages of taking over manufacture and distribution of the following ex-D&S etched 4mm kits:-

 

DS 60 - GCR Long Open Wagon (Cast)

DS 69 - GCR 15t Brake Van

DS 68 - GCR 15t Long Wheelbase Van

DS 73 - GCR GCR Louvered Milk Van

DS 74 - GCR Clerestory Meat Van

DS 75 - LD&ECR Horse Box

DS 77 - GCR 4 wheel CCT

DS 58 - GCR Parker 3rd 45ft Carriage

DS 59 - GCR Parker 3rd Brake 45ft Carriage."

 

I think you have to be a member to buy these at a discounted price.

 

I hope that helps.

 

His contact details are on UK Modelshops website.

 

Jonathan

 

 

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I have seen D&S models on EBay, usually GER or some LC&DR and they go for silly money.  (I have tried for some LC&DR ones.)  The GCR do not appear to have any MS&LR coach kits but I will enquire when I ask about the drawings.

[ChrisN]

Well this morning, first thing I emailed the Archivist at the GCR Society.  Now given that we are in the middle of a holiday and everyone has better things to do than answer emails I was more than pleasantly surprised when almost by return, with an attachment of a photo copy of some pictures from George Dow's book.  The email also said, 'if you find this useful, send us a cheque for £5.00.  I think that is service.  Yes it is useful and I will see what I can do with them.  I have diagrams for the following 6 wheel MS&LR coaches:-

 

1895 Mail van

1870-89 First class carriage

1879-99 Third Class carriage

1880-87 Third Class Brake Van

1885 Third Class with gas compartment

1886 Composite Brake Van

1887-88 and 93-94 Lavatory Composite.  (Only first class had a lavatory.)

1887 for CLC (?) First Class Saloon

1886, 92-93, 99 Third Class Saloon

1896 Family Saloon. 

 

The dates are build dates.  The difference between the first and third class saloon is that in the first their is also a compartment for the servants.

 

Most of these are within my time period and are really interesting.  The two which are definite are the composite brake and the composite lavatory.  The third with a gas compartment is probably a must as in 1895 the Cambrian was only just introducing gas lighting and all my carriages will be oil lit.  I did wonder how passengers got on when it went dark with no gas lights.  I will of course now have to go back and check lighting on GWR and LNWR coaches, although I assume they will be oil.

 

Now given that I have a million things to do, what are the chances of producing files for the cutter any time soon?  Well, Monday nights tend to be free.  I am at work in accommodation.  I have tried taking modelling to do but have failed miserably to do it, mostly.  The only thing I have succeeded in doing is making a file of my valences for the cutter.................   (Just need to see if Silhouette will load PDFs.) 

[Donw]

On some coaches there were wooden caps which fitted over the lamp holes. The lamps would be lit and then some railway man had to walk along the roofs lifting the caps off and dropping a lit lamp in. There were usually steps on the end of the coaches to enable the railwayman to get onto the roofs. I think the caps were on a small chain. The filling lighting and trimming of all sorts of lamps was a major task on the railways. The signal lamps would stay lit for over a week so the lampman would have  a round which was completed in a week so he would return to change the lamp before it went out. I presume Mr Price has ensured all of this is well in hand.

 

A few years ago Danny stopped trading when his wife was ill and then died. I found this out when I contacted him trying to get some Cambrian Coaches. He did some for me and I believe did resume trading. This thread may give some enlightenment. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13126-ds-models/. He did three different Cambrian bogie coaches in 7mm. I bought two of each. The most useful are the Tri-composites. However those would be too new for you Chris. Have you seen Mike Oxons blog it might be of interest to you on early GWR stock http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1405/entry-17234-a-year-in-retrospect/

Don

[Penlan]

......The third with a gas compartment is probably a must as in 1895 the Cambrian was only just introducing gas lighting and all my carriages will be oil lit.  I did wonder how passengers got on when it went dark with no gas lights.  ........

In the thick tome of a book, 'The Railways - Nation, Network and People' by Simon Bradley, recently published (350 pages),

There's plenty of details about travelling in early carriages without any lights at all.  

Charles Dickens seems to be quoted a lot, but then he used the railways to do his 'Talk' tours.

I'm of a mind at present not to trawl through the book for quotes, mainly because it's New Years Eve,

and I have a couple of bands turning up (hopefully) to play at a do I've organised....

Retirement, who said it was just cardies, horlicks and early to bed - last night hit the pillow at 3.15am (this morning), then woken to assist with more local storm damage......  That's the trouble living amongst a load of oldies, they need help in the form of strength, calm, and people who can still drive.... Me, Oh I'm only 72..... 

[ChrisN]

On some coaches there were wooden caps which fitted over the lamp holes. The lamps would be lit and then some railway man had to walk along the roofs lifting the caps off and dropping a lit lamp in. There were usually steps on the end of the coaches to enable the railwayman to get onto the roofs. I think the caps were on a small chain. The filling lighting and trimming of all sorts of lamps was a major task on the railways. The signal lamps would stay lit for over a week so the lampman would have  a round which was completed in a week so he would return to change the lamp before it went out. I presume Mr Price has ensured all of this is well in hand.

 

A few years ago Danny stopped trading when his wife was ill and then died. I found this out when I contacted him trying to get some Cambrian Coaches. He did some for me and I believe did resume trading. This thread may give some enlightenment. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13126-ds-models/. He did three different Cambrian bogie coaches in 7mm. I bought two of each. The most useful are the Tri-composites. However those would be too new for you Chris. Have you seen Mike Oxons blog it might be of interest to you on early GWR stock http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1405/entry-17234-a-year-in-retrospect/

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  Mr Price has it on his 'to do' list but first they have to appoint a signalman and a lad.  The lad might be difficult but I shall keep looking.  I did think that maybe one from Stadden workman set in H0, but the only one that has a sleeved waistcoat has a full beard!

 

Thank you for the links.  I do Mike's blog, one of the only two that I do, and find it very interesting and inspirational.  A Silhouette cutter would be very useful as I would have a go at other coaches I do not have kits for but I cannot justify the price, especially as there will be a limited number of pieces I will need it for. 

[MikeOxon]

 

".........all my carriages will be oil lit.  I did wonder how passengers got on when it went dark with no gas lights.  I will of course now have to go back and check lighting on GWR and LNWR coaches, although I assume they will be oil."

 

 

Some time ago, I came across this article on the web, which contains a reprint from an article by C.M.Doncaster 'Some Early Great Western Recollections'.  In that article, he wrote: "Note the old oil lamps on the carriages. Before gas and electricity were applied to trains for lighting purposes much time was wasted in lighting up.  At the station, before dusk approached, trucks carrying lighted lamps were brought alongside the train and a man ran along the roof, the lamps being handed up to him on a pole with a hook at the end"

 

I'm sure that, if you get on with finishing his station, Mr Price will become much more helpful in explaining operations such as this

 

Mike

[MikeOxon]

I can add to my previous post that Dart Castings do Oil Lamp tops complete with the small caps to fit alongside. The caps are described as 'fillers' but that is incorrect, as I found out from earlier correspondence on this website.  They simply plug the hole when a lamp is removed.

Edited December 31, 2015 by MikeOxon

[ChrisN]

In the thick tome of a book, 'The Railways - Nation, Network and People' by Simon Bradley, recently published (350 pages),

There's plenty of details about travelling in early carriages without any lights at all.  

Charles Dickens seems to be quoted a lot, but then he used the railways to do his 'Talk' tours.

I'm of a mind at present not to trawl through the book for quotes, mainly because it's New Years Eve,

and I have a couple of bands turning up (hopefully) to play at a do I've organised....

Retirement, who said it was just cardies, horlicks and early to bed - last night hit the pillow at 3.15am (this morning), then woken to assist with more local storm damage......  That's the trouble living amongst a load of oldies, they need help in the form of strength, calm, and people who can still drive.... Me, Oh I'm only 72..... 

 

Penlan,

Very interesting, thank you.  They travelled in Cambrian coaches without heat as well.

 

I do hope your 'do' goes/went well, and a happy New Year.

 

Being semi-retired I know what you mean, but at least I am busy doing what I want to do, well mostly.  I go back to work for a break.

[ChrisN]

 

".........all my carriages will be oil lit.  I did wonder how passengers got on when it went dark with no gas lights.  I will of course now have to go back and check lighting on GWR and LNWR coaches, although I assume they will be oil."

 

 

Some time ago, I came across this article on the web, which contains a reprint from an article by C.M.Doncaster 'Some Early Great Western Recollections'.  In that article, he wrote: "Note the old oil lamps on the carriages. Before gas and electricity were applied to trains for lighting purposes much time was wasted in lighting up.  At the station, before dusk approached, trucks carrying lighted lamps were brought alongside the train and a man ran along the roof, the lamps being handed up to him on a pole with a hook at the end"

 

I'm sure that, if you get on with finishing his station, Mr Price will become much more helpful in explaining operations such as this

 

Mike

 

 

Mike,

Is that a truck as in goods wagon, or a trolley on the platform.  Mr Price is not talking to me at the moment, I think he is a bit cross.

 

I can add to my previous post that Dart Castings do Oil Lamp tops complete with the small caps to fit alongside. The caps are described as 'fillers' but that is incorrect, as I found out from earlier correspondence on this website.  They simply plug the hole when a lamp is removed.

 

I actually have some of these and got a few more for Christmas as part of a collection of bits to finish a couple of carriages off.  I have learnt not to put the caps on the roof unless I am going to light up the inside of the coach.

[Penlan]

Being semi-retired I know what you mean, but at least I am busy doing what I want to do, well mostly.  I go back to work for a break.

One of my oft used phrases is ' I often wish I was working full time again, I had more time to myself then'.

[uax6]

Chris,

 

It would appear the the LNWR used Popes gas Lamps (10" diameter) from 1882 except for passenger brake vans which stayed oil lit until 1890 when they when to gas. Electric lamps became standard from 1897 on new suburban stock.

 

The way I draw in studio is to scan the carriage drawing as a jpeg, and then open it in studio and trace over the top. You will find it advantagous to draw one door and then copy and paste it. You will find that you can do this for lots of things....

 

Get the side drawn as one composite drawing, with different layers in different colours, as this will help when you split it out later!

 

I can email you one of my Highland drawings if it would be helpful to see what I'm on about.

[MikeOxon]

Mike,

Is that a truck as in goods wagon, or a trolley on the platform.  Mr Price is not talking to me at the moment, I think he is a bit cross.

 

............................

I actually have some of these and got a few more for Christmas as part of a collection of bits to finish a couple of carriages off.  I have learnt not to put the caps on the roof unless I am going to light up the inside of the coach.

Chris,

 

I know no more than is in the article - my assumption was that some sort of hand truck on the platform was intended. 

 

I'm still a bit puzzled as to how those caps were used.  The lamp chimneys have hinged covers and photos (inevitably taken in daylight, when the lamps were presumably not in use) always seem to show the caps in their clips alongside the lamp 'chimneys'.  Perhaps one man went along the roof first, opening all the hinged covers and putting a cap in, if it was raining.  Then the man with the lamps followed on and put the caps back in their clips, if they were in use.  But why not just rely on the hinged lids?  I'm still missing something

 

Mike

[mike morley]

What are the Dart Castings lamp-top castings like, quality-wise? 

I've got some old Cavendish lamp-tops and some others of uncertain origin (Gibson?) and they are so badly cast only about a quarter of them are useable and even they require a lot of fettling and poor eyesight to be considered acceptable.

[Donw]

I thought the hinged lid was part of the lamp. The wooden caps appeared to be fixed with a chain to the tube in the roof into which the lamp was dropped. So the chap could pull the cap off and drop the lamp straight in. I wish I could remember where the photo was that showed them.

Don

[emt_911]

Chris, wishing you all a happy, healthy and prosperous 2016

[MikeOxon]

I thought the hinged lid was part of the lamp. The wooden caps appeared to be fixed with a chain to the tube in the roof into which the lamp was dropped. So the chap could pull the cap off and drop the lamp straight in. I wish I could remember where the photo was that showed them.

Don

This photo from about 1870 seems to illustrate the point you are making - some roofs have the caps in place but why do others have the hinged lids open ?:

 

 

From most of the photos I've seen, it seems that the lamp chimneys were left in place for most of the time, including during the day.

 

Mike