Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Just a quick correction. I have discovered that Newtown station was not built until 1868. Before that there was a temporary joint station, which prompted many complaints. (Rereading Christieansen and Miller Vol 1)  I am not sure where it puts it in relation to the other major stations.

 

Jonatyhan

 

Jonathan,

The coast line was built during the late 1860s, Barmouth Junction, Barmouth and Traeth Mawr were all built in 1867 so Newtown station would have been built the following year.  Aberdovey was the original Pwllheli so again around the same time.  It is probably why they look similar.

[ChrisN]

Looking at the back extensions on Newtown I wondered why they would not work on Aberdovey.  The image from the front entrance side is symmetrical while the image from the platform side is not.  It appears as though Newtown is symmetrical on both sides.  If however I moved the doors and the windows then it might just work although the building is probably a little too short really.  I will think.

Edited September 27, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Those of you who were waiting for another discussion of late Victorian hem lines, agricultural practise on Welsh Hill farms or the weather in March 1895, (it was more mild than it had been of late, one of the harshest winters in the 1890s), I am afraid that I am going to disappoint you.  There is something coming up later of that nature but this is about the railway.  Not this time about redesigning a perfectly good station building, although that will come, but I have actually laid some track! 

 

So here goes.

 

This is an overall picture of the station loop, all wired up with droppers, and yes I did remember to put holes in the baseboard for the point motors.  (Not that I might have forgotten in other cases.   )  You notice the station building at the far end.

 

 

Just a bit closer and you notice I have put the cork down for the bay platform.  I was going to leave this until later as the urgent thing is to get the main line finished and trains running but I realised that I cannot make a platform if I do not know how wide it should be, a trying to fit track around an already built platform is an option but I thought not a good one.

 

 

Closer still.  The track on the right is a piece od set track just to give an impression of what it would look like.  You can see the points at the end, the one on the right I put too much PVA under, but it does work again now, honest.  You can just begin to see the copper clad sleepers.  They were straight when I started, honest guv!

 

 

This one shows the spacings.  It is just possible to see where the two sleepers are closer together although it looked much better on my view finder.  The spacings I have found quite difficult and I am not sure that I have always got the sleepers perpendicular to the rails.

 

 

Finally the copper clads.  I still think they look better that the screws although maybe not the best examples in the world.  I have gapped them but not as yet checked them with a meter.

 

I now need to get the bay in place, and yes you are right the cork goes right to the join but I remembered, just, before I laid the track that I need ply supports, and more copper clad sleepers so they will be done soon.  Then it is a general tidy up,( why do you think I have cut down the picture just to the loop?) and then I shall take the front two boards off and bring the back two further forward so I can reach the back curve and then finish the fiddleyard.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Penlan]

Going off at a tangent, again....
Telephone connection for Coal Order Office(s) in the Goods Yard ?
Even though Traeth Mawr is set pre 1900, can one assume any Coal Merchant's Office (aka Shed) may have had a telephone?
If so, how was it connected to the local exchange, would the line have gone from the office and joined the railway's telegraph pole/wires to near it's local exchange, or would it have had a totally separate set of poles and wire(s) to the local exchange.

Here I'm assuming the Coal yard offices are not near the town centre, but if for example 'Traeth Mawr Road' station (e.g. miles from Traeth Mawr) had an office or two, how would the telephone exchange wires reach the Coal Merchants offices.

 

This query is raised as I have this situation and thought I would tack it on here.....

[ChrisN]

Going off at a tangent, again....

Telephone connection for Coal Order Office(s) in the Goods Yard ?

Even though Traeth Mawr is set pre 1900, can one assume any Coal Merchant's Office (aka Shed) may have had a telephone?

If so, how was it connected to the local exchange, would the line have gone from the office and joined the railway's telegraph pole/wires to near it's local exchange, or would it have had a totally separate set of poles and wire(s) to the local exchange.

Here I'm assuming the Coal yard offices are not near the town centre, but if for example 'Traeth Mawr Road' station (e.g. miles from Traeth Mawr) had an office or two, how would the telephone exchange wires reach the Coal Merchants offices.

 

This query is raised as I have this situation and thought I would tack it on here.....

 

Penlan,

That is an interesting question as I had not even thought of telephones although I had though of telegraphs.  Would Traeth Mawr bee connected to another telephone system, if it had one?  If so I suppose it would have to be via the railway telegraph.

 

Traeth Mawr is like Barmouth up the road, I really should produce a map, in that the station is built between the town and the beach.  Station Road has the station at one end and the market square at the other so the coal yard next to the sidings is fairly central.  He has another yard up the valley at Cwm Bach so perhaps he would need a phone to there but the post is quite good, four deliveries and collections a day so a telephone might only be a status symbol.  (Cwm Bach provides endless amusement with the English who live in Traeth Mawr for John Davies the coal merchants assistant.  "I say my good man, where is Mr Parry?  "He is at the other yard."  ""When is he going to come back?"  "He is already gone, that's why he's not here.")

 

Sorry not much help but I am going away to look at the 1896 Bradshaws and see how many telephone numbers I can spot.

[Penlan]

...... but the post is quite good, four deliveries and collections a day 

I recall reading a Gt. Malvern Lady's biography from the late Victorian era, where she posted a letter in the morning to a friend in Colwall (approx 4 miles away), received a reply early afternoon and was able to post her reply that day too, although I can't recall if the recipient received it that day too, but something seems to say yes she did......, that would have been some service.

 

So, you will have to make sure you have a period post box - Penfold I think - BTW the Lamp boxes (attached to telegraph poles etc.,) didn't start till 1897, and then mainly in London before cascading out into the bucolic areas.

I have  a Lamp box on Penlan, but it's pushing it a bit even for 1910, but then again I also have a AA 'Penlan' sign too, and they had only just been introduced in 1906 and it has a separate AA at the top, not enclosed in a sort of horse shoe, which happened when the AA amalgamated with the Motor Union in 1910.

I know it's not relevant to Traeth Mawr, but somebody might find this web site useful http://www.cvphm.org.uk/AAVillageSigns.html (Penlan's AA sign was inspired by a photo in the book on the P4 layout St. Merryn).

Aghh, looking for something else, and I know, not relevant, but my AA sign is here >>>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26426-aa-village-signs/

Edited September 29, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

I recall reading a Gt. Malvern Lady's biography from the late Victorian era, where she posted a letter in the morning to a friend in Colwall (approx 4 miles away), received a reply early afternoon and was able to post her reply that day too, although I can't recall if the recipient received it that day too, but something seems to say yes she did......, that would have been some service.

 

So, you will have to make sure you have a period post box - Penfold I think - BTW the Lamp boxes (attached to telegraph poles etc.,) didn't start till 1897, and then mainly in London before cascading out into the bucolic areas.

I have  a Lamp box on Penlan, but it's pushing it a bit even for 1910, but then again I also have a AA 'Penlan' sign too, and they had only just been introduced in 1906 and it has a separate AA at the top, not enclosed in a sort of horse shoe, which happened when the AA amalgamated with the Motor Union in 1910.

I know it's not relevant to Traeth Mawr, but somebody might find this web site useful http://www.cvphm.org.uk/AAVillageSigns.html (Penlan's AA sign was inspired by a photo in the book on the P4 layout St. Merryn).

Aghh, looking for something else, and I know, not relevant, but my AA sign is here >>>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26426-aa-village-signs/

 

It was Sherlock Holmes who was always sending letters and receiving replies on the same day, although mostly within London but still impressive.  I had a trawl through Bradshaws, December 1895 actually, nearly 1896 and no shops or Steam Ship companies advertised telephones.  Some hotels and it is surprising where they were.  Quite a few up north, Hull, Grimsby, (a hotel owned by the local railway), and Liverpool plus Ilkley which surprised me, however the Midland Hotel did not, but it did have a Telegraphic address, as did all the hotels that had a telephone number.  The chances of Rober Parry, Coal Merchant, Traeth Mawr having one I think are small.

[Penlan]

ChrisN, I think we have to remember that your excellent Topic, seems to be meeting the needs of a wider time frame than circa 1895, and outwith the railways boundary fence...
I know it doesn't help you to get on with getting the actual layout built, but what a source for the arm-chair modellers.
(PS - I wonder if the 'Wessex Arm Chair Modellers Group' are still going?).

Edited September 29, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

ChrisN, I think we have to remember that your excellent Topic, seems to be meeting the needs of a wider time frame than circa 1895, and outwith the railways boundary fence...

I know it doesn't help you to get on with getting the actual layout built, but what a source for the arm-chair modellers.

(PS - I wonder if the 'Wessex Arm Chair Modellers Group' are still going?).

 

Penlan,

This is true and I do not mind that at all, but I will tend to think about 1895 as that is my time, and reply in that way.  The discussions are generally most helpful eve when not specific.

 

On the subject of telephones, I have never really thought about how and when they were introduced apart from a vague notion that they came in in the late Victorian/Edwardian period so being prompted to see who had, or advertised a telephone in 1895 is very interesting.  I am very surprised shops did not advertise them although I assume they thought people would just have to go along to try things on, and Ilkley, there must have been a very enterprising hotel manager there when some London hotels did not advertise a number.

Edited September 29, 2015 by ChrisN

[uax6]

Oh, a subject I know a bit about!

 

The telephone was very slow to start in the provinces. The main reason being the cost of the line plant (ie wires, poles, providing the switchboard (in either the post office or someones front room!), and the staffing cost (often with manual switchboard it was only available in the daytime hours, outside 1800 it would just turn off!).

 

Rural communities would be very unrenumerative, and only a few places got manual switchboards, and they often only cam in the late teens and twenties. In the late twenties the GPO really started to push rural telephone service, and this was helped by the first standard Unit Automatic eXchanges (the UAX5) introduced at that time. Looks around and you will see lots of small UAX buildings that date from this time, they often have a larger building next to them now, the small building usually housing the standby generator now). Then in the mid '30s the UAX 12 was introduced, which allowed 'unit fee' dialling to adjacent uax exchanges, and 0 level operator access (the UAX5 all calls not on the local exchange had to go via the operator). The UAX 5 died out in around the late 60's (I know of 5 units in preservation), the UAX12 lasted to the 90's when the network went digital (infact the next to last exchange to become digital was a UAX12).

 

I happen to have a UAX12 (pre subscriber trunk dialling) in my shed at home, complete with its 'wasp in a jam jar' dialling tone, and junction sets to it's adjacent exchange.... which stands next to it, and is a similar UAX12, but as comverted in the 60's to STD working (along with modern tones and pay on answer payphones...).

 

So I would have thought that telephones would be very unlikely...

 

Andy G

[corneliuslundie]

I remember reading about a man who lived in Harborne, a posh Birmingham suburb, and used to send a postcard home lunchtime to tell his wife what time to meet him.

 

On the back cover of the GWR January to March 1902 passenger timetable there is an advert for GWR hotels. Only the Paddington one has a phone number. Inside at the end there are sections on steam ship services by several shipping lines (no phone nos), parcels and goods arrangements (phone nos of two depots but not of any of the receiving offices or goods depots, etc, agents for American railway companies (but no phone numbers),. But there is a list of official telephone numbers. In Wales there are numbers for Cardiff (3), Chester, Croes Newydd, Newport (2), Swansea (2). Most are two or three digit numbers and some are single digit. This leads me to think that even in 1902 not many businesses had phones.

 

Oh, and it also has a list of taxi fares from Paddington, Bristol and Cheltenham (3s 0d to the Plough, Clapham Common).

 

All useless for modelling purposes except in a negative sort of way.

[uax6]

At this sort of time, the GPO provided three collections and deliveries a day in major towns. So you would be able to read your letters at breakfast, reply to them, and read the reply at teatime..... Imagine that sort of service these days....

 

Don't forget that with such a good letter service, why would you need to have the expense of a telephone, which in reality (or the time) wouldn't actually offer a better service?

 

Mind you can you imagine the world without the telephone now? I'm in a signalbox as I type this, and I have 6 telephones all to myself......

 

Andy G

[Penlan]

..... On the subject of telephones, I have never really thought about how and when they were introduced ...

.... and what about dustbins.. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Oh, a subject I know a bit about!

 

The telephone was very slow to start in the provinces. The main reason being the cost of the line plant (ie wires, poles, providing the switchboard (in either the post office or someones front room!), and the staffing cost (often with manual switchboard it was only available in the daytime hours, outside 1800 it would just turn off!).

 

Rural communities would be very unrenumerative, and only a few places got manual switchboards, and they often only cam in the late teens and twenties. In the late twenties the GPO really started to push rural telephone service, and this was helped by the first standard Unit Automatic eXchanges (the UAX5) introduced at that time. Looks around and you will see lots of small UAX buildings that date from this time, they often have a larger building next to them now, the small building usually housing the standby generator now). Then in the mid '30s the UAX 12 was introduced, which allowed 'unit fee' dialling to adjacent uax exchanges, and 0 level operator access (the UAX5 all calls not on the local exchange had to go via the operator). The UAX 5 died out in around the late 60's (I know of 5 units in preservation), the UAX12 lasted to the 90's when the network went digital (infact the next to last exchange to become digital was a UAX12).

 

I happen to have a UAX12 (pre subscriber trunk dialling) in my shed at home, complete with its 'wasp in a jam jar' dialling tone, and junction sets to it's adjacent exchange.... which stands next to it, and is a similar UAX12, but as comverted in the 60's to STD working (along with modern tones and pay on answer payphones...).

 

So I would have thought that telephones would be very unlikely...

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

Thank you, I hoped you would look in.  Can you tell me, did the telephone go down the same wires as the telegraph or did they string extra wires on the telegraph poles?  I assume the latter.  How come Ilkley got the phone so early?  Was it because it was on the railway?

[ChrisN]

I remember reading about a man who lived in Harborne, a posh Birmingham suburb, and used to send a postcard home lunchtime to tell his wife what time to meet him.

 

On the back cover of the GWR January to March 1902 passenger timetable there is an advert for GWR hotels. Only the Paddington one has a phone number. Inside at the end there are sections on steam ship services by several shipping lines (no phone nos), parcels and goods arrangements (phone nos of two depots but not of any of the receiving offices or goods depots, etc, agents for American railway companies (but no phone numbers),. But there is a list of official telephone numbers. In Wales there are numbers for Cardiff (3), Chester, Croes Newydd, Newport (2), Swansea (2). Most are two or three digit numbers and some are single digit. This leads me to think that even in 1902 not many businesses had phones.

 

Oh, and it also has a list of taxi fares from Paddington, Bristol and Cheltenham (3s 0d to the Plough, Clapham Common).

 

All useless for modelling purposes except in a negative sort of way.

 

Jonathan,

Not useless I think.  The reason being is that when we model what is now 100 years or so ago what we take for granted and what they take for granted are so different we have to understand, at least a little, why things worked the way they did.  No we do not have to do that really of course but it adds so much more, I think to our own experience of producing a model.

[ChrisN]

At this sort of time, the GPO provided three collections and deliveries a day in major towns. So you would be able to read your letters at breakfast, reply to them, and read the reply at teatime..... Imagine that sort of service these days....

 

Don't forget that with such a good letter service, why would you need to have the expense of a telephone, which in reality (or the time) wouldn't actually offer a better service?

 

Mind you can you imagine the world without the telephone now? I'm in a signalbox as I type this, and I have 6 telephones all to myself......

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

I remember my mum saying to me that they were going to stop the afternoon post, so we went down to two posts a day.  The first always was there before breakfast, with the milk and the second about mid to late morning, about the time we get our only delivery now.  I am certain in Victoria times London had four deliveries  Letters are so much nicer than phone calls and better than emails as you cannot get cross and send an angry letter and live to regret it the instant afterwards.  You have time to calm down and rewrite, or not send it at all.  I cannot remember the last time I sent a proper letter.

[ChrisN]

.... and what about dustbins.. 

 

Penlan,

This is a good point.  How did they collect rubbish in the big Victorian towns?  I am sure I have seen a Victorian film of rubbish collection but I might be mistaken.  I will look again tomorrow.  Have you any ideas?

[Mikkel]

Penlan,

This is a good point.  How did they collect rubbish in the big Victorian towns?  I am sure I have seen a Victorian film of rubbish collection but I might be mistaken.  I will look again tomorrow.  Have you any ideas?

 

Just the thing for a man who can't sleep! I found this academic article, from which I quote below. So for 1895, an ash pit might be the thing, and a small ad hoc container alongside it for stuff that doesn't burn...

 

Throughout the last century and during the early 1900’s ash made up almost all household waste with unburned refuse representing only a small proportion of household debris and deposited in co-existing dustbins, which were often improvised receptacles provided by the household (Ravetz, 1995). Individual ashpit privies or "tip-up bins" were commonplace in the terraced streets of northern England up until the early 1900s (Muthesius, 1982). Supported by burning technologies such as the kitchen fire or range, ashes were prepared by the household and taken to the privy situated in the rear wall of the yard (Ravetz,1995). From here a municipal refuse collector could unlock and empty the ashpit, often on a daily basis.

 By the 1900s, ashpits were no longer capable of handling household wastes. Their fixed location in backyard walls made collection arrangements inflexible, households were increasingly constrained by the "dry waste only" rule (as new energy sources replaced open coal fires), and the small capacity made it unsuitable for higher volume wastes. As the 19th century drew to a close new waste "problems" and new bins emerged.

The Metal Dustbin: Whilst the origins of the dustbin as a moveable container for the temporary storage of rubbish can be traced to the 1800s, it took until the 1960s for the standardised dustbin to become a reality. During this time the form of the dustbin changed significantly, most markedly in terms of size. Early experiments with small improvised containers such as biscuit tins in the early 1900s, gave way to medium sized galvanised metal bins in the 1950s, and onto larger plastic bins in the 1960s (...). The growing importance of bin mobility is reflected in the dustbin’s changing locations, at the kerbside on collection days, but tucked away in the back region of the house at other times... 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

Just the thing for a man who can't sleep! I found this academic article, from which I quote below. So for 1895, an ash pit might be the thing, and a small ad hoc container alongside it for stuff that doesn't burn...

 

Mikkel,

How interesting.  I remember in the 50s and 60s not only did we have a metal bin but the dustman came into our garden to collect it.  Also, in the 50s they had a trailer on the back for food waste which went to a local pig farm, something that was not collected separately again until my last council  This council does not do it though.  I do not remember when the metal bins went but I am sure it was still the same, maybe not, until I left home in the late 70s.  After that it was black plastic bags at the roadside.  Black bags are fun as the local cats and foxes come and make small holes in them and take out the tasty bits although badgers are better because they rip them open and scatter the contents over a wide area.  Where I am now has plastic bins and has had for a long time although they are the smaller version so they do not have to collect as much.  On topic but not relevant to 1895.  I will do some research today.

[uax6]

As for phone wires, its a difficult one. Telegraphs could be one wire or two wire, as could phone lines. So you might see a pole route with a single wire on the top (on saddle brackets) with a small arm with one insulator either side. Or they could be all on arms....

 

I have a GPO Engineering Instruction on wiring on poles that show the trans-positions for the wires on arms. You have to adjust the positioning of the wires to stop induction, I think I even have it scanned, but it is probably too large to put on here. I also have EI's on pole erection and siting I think.....

 

Here the rubbish collection was quite easy. The burnable stuff was burnt, and the rest went into a midden. I know as there is an old boy who still does the burning (but put the rest into the bin now), and the bottom of my garden is one big midden, not that I found anything nice.....

 

Andy G

[Donw]

One thing with a telephone is that is has little use if no one else has a phone to either call or be called by. So I imagine the coal office would not have a phone in 1895 as few of its customers would have one.  In those days  telephones were collected by open wires. Indeed in rural areas I can remember running open wires in the 60s and they were still including it in the training during the 70s. Back to 1895 there are photos of early telephone exchanges with a monstrous assembly mounted on the roof to connect up all the wires. Andy G gives some useful info on UAXs which were small automatic exchanges for rural areas. However in the early days they were manual boards. I had the pleasure of working at the one in Wokingham ( telephone operators seemed to find embarrassing young trainees a favourite sport) and also the nearby one at Hurst which was in the front room of a cottage worked by Husband and Wife.  I could imagine Traeth Mawr having such an exchange but not in 1895.

The other factor is the running of the wires. So far as I know the railway co and GPO equipment was kept separate.  The railway had its own internal phones often these were shared lines where a number of signal boxes for example all had a phone on a common line. The Station would have had a GPO line at some stage probably when there was some suitable customers. Our house when I was a boy was part of a Victorian terrace but when we had the telephone installed during the 50s the GPO had to put in a couple of poles to connect us up obviously the had not been any phones in those houses before.

Incidently the Telegram service would have started with telegraph services from major post offices.

Don

[Donw]

As for phone wires, its a difficult one. Telegraphs could be one wire or two wire, as could phone lines. So you might see a pole route with a single wire on the top (on saddle brackets) with a small arm with one insulator either side. Or they could be all on arms....

 

I have a GPO Engineering Instruction on wiring on poles that show the trans-positions for the wires on arms. You have to adjust the positioning of the wires to stop induction, I think I even have it scanned, but it is probably too large to put on here. I also have EI's on pole erection and siting I think.....

 

Here the rubbish collection was quite easy. The burnable stuff was burnt, and the rest went into a midden. I know as there is an old boy who still does the burning (but put the rest into the bin now), and the bottom of my garden is one big midden, not that I found anything nice.....

 

Andy G

 

The arms on the poles could be 4 way or 8 way. The transposition was needed on the trunk routes connecting exchanges where the wires ran for miles.

Don

[ChrisN]

As for phone wires, its a difficult one. Telegraphs could be one wire or two wire, as could phone lines. So you might see a pole route with a single wire on the top (on saddle brackets) with a small arm with one insulator either side. Or they could be all on arms....

 

I have a GPO Engineering Instruction on wiring on poles that show the trans-positions for the wires on arms. You have to adjust the positioning of the wires to stop induction, I think I even have it scanned, but it is probably too large to put on here. I also have EI's on pole erection and siting I think.....

 

Here the rubbish collection was quite easy. The burnable stuff was burnt, and the rest went into a midden. I know as there is an old boy who still does the burning (but put the rest into the bin now), and the bottom of my garden is one big midden, not that I found anything nice.....

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

Thank you.  Burning obviously happened anywhere and everywhere and the article Mikkel quotes gives the impression that you cooked your dinner over it.  Middens though.  You live in the middle of nowhere where the highest point around is the river bank.  I wonder how they transferred that to towns.  I am sure the older parts of Traeth Mawr would have done that but not sure what would have happened in the newer parts.

[Penlan]

One has to remember in 1895 there wasn't the wasteful packaging there is now, I can recall from the early 50's most things went either on the fire (or in the range) or out to the compost heap (aka as the field next door).

Where my grandparents lived, the flats had shoots for rubbish (one 6' high by 3' dia bin for 20 households, weekly collection), but most thing's were burned on the fire - there was also two toilets and one Belfast sink on a landing for each floor of 5 households. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Penlan

[John_Miles]

Just to lower the tone, middens could be piles of excrement. We live in a relatively sanitised age. In cities and towns before sewerage (which mostly came from 1850s onwards), excrement was piled in middens or basements and removed by night soil collectors. Night soil was used as fertiliser - recycling is as old as the hills. In rural areas, sewerage arrived much later. I was involved in some schemes in Herefordshire in the 1970s when I was a boy engineer. Also there were thousands of horses and they were not constipated so streets were covered in horse droppings - rarely modelled. Life in the past was much more smelly and less tidy, although there would be no litter,