Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Penlan]

Penlan,

That is very useful

. ....... or would it be someone they hired, a late Victorian DHL? (Donkey Haulage Ltd.) 

Your welcome, and DHL, surely that's 'Donkey Haulage Logistics'.

[Penlan]

Strange, a comment under the last picture seems to have disappeared, and no comment from Admin..

 

Edit - And it's back again..... '.......Barge ...'.   

Edited August 1, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Oh, you mean Jones the spy!

 

Regarding clogs, I have just been reading a rather eccentric book called "Portrait of the Wye Valley" by H L V Fletcher, originally published in 1968 an d not borrowed from our local library since 2009 - and that was the first time since 1995.

 

In it there is a reference to clog making in Radnorshire in the author's lifetime, using alder wood. The author says "a few clogs are still worn here and there and for a while during the war there was quite a revival in them - not for millgirls nor colliers, but as fashionable footwear".

 

I am not quite sure where this leaves us regardiing the wearing of clogs by the residents of Traeth Mawr but it does show that clogs were being worn in Wales into the 20th century though apparently by millgirls and colliers.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

Thank you.  I read something about this clog making but there was a comment that there were more clogs worn in the south than in Lancashire.  I was left with the impression that some people wore clogs and the lady in my cameo certainly will.  I will have to go back through all the photos again and see what people are wearing if their feet are visible that is.

[ChrisN]

Beg pardon, as I have joined in part way through, I have missed any previous mention of this resource, but, if not, The People's Collection Wales seems a great resource.  He are some random samples of Welsh life in the 1890s:

 

Is there a link to this please?

[Donw]

Don,

Thank you, you are of course right.  I have just looked at the 1904 Through Coach list again and the first thing I noticed was GWR trains, I assume so as they were going to Snow Hill, going via Welshpool.  When I was looking at them before I assumed all Birmingham trains went further on.  I will look at the list again.

 

Mike Oxen has enhanced the image and all the coaches have a pale top half.  What I find interesting is that the front and rear brake vans are of different heights.  The clerestory is obviously a bogie coach and could be GWR which means I cannot get away with only six wheelers.  I shall have to peruse Russell's I think to find a suitable one.

 

Don,

Thank you, you are of course right.  I have just looked at the 1904 Through Coach list again and the first thing I noticed was GWR trains, I assume so as they were going to Snow Hill, going via Welshpool.  When I was looking at them before I assumed all Birmingham trains went further on.  I will look at the list again.

 

Mike Oxen has enhanced the image and all the coaches have a pale top half.  What I find interesting is that the front and rear brake vans are of different heights.  The clerestory is obviously a bogie coach and could be GWR which means I cannot get away with only six wheelers.  I shall have to peruse Russell's I think to find a suitable one.

 

Pre 1907 (IIRC) all the coaches would have had a pale upper half GW Cream and Chocolate LNWR Spilt Milk and Plum Cambrian Off White and Bronze Green.

Don

[ChrisN]

Hi All,

"quote" doesn't seem to be working very well for me today but the second photo down in this post is a cracker!

I've had a little look around but can't find an answer, is this typical of Welshmen to wear this type of beard at this date? They look very "Quaker" to me! ISTR that a close friend of George Stephenson was a Quaker and back then, they did seem to be very involved in business but in an earlier period i.e. 1820's.

I find it a distinctive look, not passing any kind of judgement!

During my looking for the above, I did find this that may be of use:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/293508100691006117/

Clearly a colourised picture but hopefully one that gives a reasonable rendition of the original colours used.

Cheers,

John.

 

John,

This is not proof but here are two 'Georges' working on the Cambrian, and this group from Barmouth in 1885.  I get the impression that they were earlier mainly than the 1890s, I have not added such beards to my figures mainly because the beard is often worn without a moustache and my figures always have one with a beard.

[Edwardian]

Not sure I can do links, but it's www.peoplescollection.wales

[ChrisN]

Your welcome, and DHL, surely that's 'Donkey Haulage Logistics'.

 

Penlan,

I could say, that 'Logistics' was not such a commonly used word in 1895, (no proof, just guessing), but I will not as it would open up another avenue of conversation.

[corneliuslundie]

I just discovered this site today at the National Eisteddfod. It looks really interesting.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Pre 1907 (IIRC) all the coaches would have had a pale upper half GW Cream and Chocolate LNWR Spilt Milk and Plum Cambrian Off White and Bronze Green.

Don

 

Don,

Yes I think you are right which is why I was so surprised as they appeared to be all over one colour.  It now comes down to 'spot the coach'.  We could probably play, 'Which train is it' as well, although not the date.

 

(In the 009 mag a few years ago there was a photo of the Lynton & Barnstable engine sheds with surrounding houses.  Someone worked out from the engine shed details the year, that as everyone had their washing out it was a Monday, from the angle of the sun they narrowed it down to two days in the year and then with some other information decided it was the second date in October.  Not sure we can get that close.)

Not sure I can do links, but it's www.peoplescollection.wales

 

Thank you, it works.

[mike morley]

Not sure I can do links,

 

Glad it's not just me who struggles!

[Penlan]

ChrisN, it's taken me years to understand what Logistics means!!! and I think my mind (to a degree) is post Edwardian..

[MikeOxon]

.. it's taken me years to understand what Logistics means!!! and I think my mind (to a degree) is post Edwardian..

I first came across the term in Army usage. The Royal Logistic Corps (RLC) was formed on Monday, 5 April 1993 and is now the largest Corps in the Army! ("Loggies")  I think the civvy world caught on soon after that, so that every haulage contractor changed its name to 'XXX Logistics'.  Definitely post-Edwardian

[Edwardian]

And when I know precisely what is meant by "commissariat"....

 

1875 - Commissariat and Transport Department,  1880 - Commissariat and Transport Staff and Commissariat and Transport Corps, 1888 - Army Service Corps.

 

After that, no change I nomenclature until post-Nationalisation (so of absolutely no interest!)

[MikeOxon]

The BoT report on the Abermule collision in 1921 lists the carriages on each of the two trains involved.  May be of interest.

 

see http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Abermule1921.pdf

[Penlan]

Edwardian Costumes again.  Day trippers...

These are taken at Morecambe - Euston Road Station.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Different answer now..

Cattle, there were cattle in Wales, The Welsh Black..

However I found trying to get a black paint job to look good in 4mm scale difficult,

though looking at some images I notice there is a dark brown incursion sometimes....,

 

 

I've avoided this by having Hereford Cattle in one of my fields, this is a part view of Devynock (Sennybridge) Fair Day with Hereford Cattle.   Note there's a policeman about....

P.S. I also have loads of sheep on the layout.. but that's another issue.

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

PS - And if your going to tell me Hereford's don't have horns....

They did, and do..  I admit those at Devynock look a bit scrawny, perhaps they are weanies ( < 1 year old).

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Model animals - The most difficult thing I've found with models is to get a sensible collection of sheep, cattle etc., together for a modest sum that seem to represent a proper scene.

Sheep, most sheep in a field are grazing, occasionally one will be looking up, another might be lying down, but basically you need about 90% of your herd grazing... can you buy typical packs like that.. No.

 

Cattle, they seem to be a packs of 1 grazing, 1 head up and 1 lying down, well normally they are 90% grazing, or 90% looking at you over the fence or something or lying down waiting for it to rain.  

They are certainly not running around with their tails up, and if their tails are up for the purpose of ejecting matter,

they have arched backs and their feet together.
I've seen cattle pens on layouts where all the cattle enclosed are seemingly doing 100yd sprints around the inside of the pens.   They don't do that.  (echo's of Joyce Grenfell).

In the pens it's normally feet together (as in standing still) and looking at the scenery.

 

A couple of years ago at an exhibition, one of the traders was selling white metal sheep loose, so I was able to buy around 40 grazers, I feel they look much more plausible in the field, together with a few other 'head up' or 'lying down' sheep. 
I tried after the exhibition to remember who sold them to me, but contacting all the likely traders at the exhibition drew a blank, though a couple did say, why not visit our stand at xyz exhibition.  As I live in west Cornwall and these exhibitions where off the M62 route.... I thought "is it worth it?"

Edited August 2, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

The BoT report on the Abermule collision in 1921 lists the carriages on each of the two trains involved.  May be of interest.

 

see http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Abermule1921.pdf

 

Mike,

Thank you again.  I will study this later and post a proper reply.  I think I know what the actual train is on the bridge and I am, when I have time, study your picture again and have a stab at what the coaches are.

[mike morley]

 

A couple of years ago at an exhibition, one of the traders was selling white metal sheep loose, so I was able to buy around 40 grazers

I tried after the exhibition to remember who sold them to me, but contacting all the likely traders at the exhibition drew a blank

 

Probably MRD

[ChrisN]

Edwardian Costumes again.  Day trippers...

These are taken at Morecambe - Euston Road Station.

 

Morcombe - Euston Road Day Trippers #1.jpg

 

Morcombe - Euston Road Day Trippers #2.jpg

 

Morcombe - Euston Road Day Trippers #3.jpg

 

Penlan,

It is noticeable how the boys are not in short trousers, which makes backdating boys quite difficult, and not many companies that do Edwardian/Victorian children, although there are more girl figures available.

[ChrisN]

Model animals - The most difficult thing I've found with models is to get a sensible collection of sheep, cattle etc., together for a modest sum that seem to represent a proper scene.

Sheep, most sheep in a field are grazing, occasionally one will be looking up, another might be lying down, but basically you need about 90% of your herd grazing... can you buy typical packs like that.. No.

 

Cattle, they seem to be a packs of 1 grazing, 1 head up and 1 lying down, well normally they are 90% grazing, or 90% looking at you over the fence or something or lying down waiting for it to rain.  

They are certainly not running around with their tails up, and if their tails are up for the purpose of ejecting matter,

they have arched backs and their feet together.

I've seen cattle pens on layouts where all the cattle enclosed are seemingly doing 100yd sprints around the inside of the pens.   They don't do that.  (echo's of Joyce Grenfell).

In the pens it's normally feet together (as in standing still) and looking at the scenery.

 

A couple of years ago at an exhibition, one of the traders was selling white metal sheep loose, so I was able to buy around 40 grazers, I feel they look much more plausible in the field, together with a few other 'head up' or 'lying down' sheep. 

I tried after the exhibition to remember who sold them to me, but contacting all the likely traders at the exhibition drew a blank, though a couple did say, why not visit our stand at xyz exhibition.  As I live in west Cornwall and these exhibitions where off the M62 route.... I thought "is it worth it?"

 

Penlan,

Mike beat me to it, it is MRD. 

 

On my layout there will be sheep but I had not thought about cattle.  I have researched Welsh sheep but after I had done that I found that my daughter-in-law's uncle grows Llanwenogs, so I will probably have those.  I think to all intents and purposes there are two types of sheep in 4mm.  There are South Downs, and similar, short face, fat body, and the others, long face thin body.  You also have to be careful about horns, not that they might skewer you, but do they have them or are they polled. 

 

(The above is simplistic and from a 'Townie'.  I know those who know sheep would say differently.  Little story.

 

Townie Teacher changes jobs and goes to a rural primary school.  On the first day she draws a sheep on the board.

"Ok class, what is that?"

Complete silence.  Thirty children looking perplexed.

"Come on, you must know what this is!"

Still no response.

Baffled teacher, "Surely someone must know?"

A little boy gingerly puts his hand up.

"Yes Johnny?" {All little  boys in stories are called Johnny.}

"Is it a Leicestershire Cross Miss?")

[corneliuslundie]

I have been researching sheep for mid Wales in the 1930s (as one does!). There have been quite rapid changes in fashions in sheep. I have settled for Kerry Hill (very local) and Improved Welsh Mountain. For the former I have some 4mm models being painted and for the latter some 3mm ones, as they were pretty small. Improved Welsh Mountain have almost disappeared now. I think the models I have are roughly the right shape, though as you say mountain sheep tend to be more scrawny. But they also look very different before and after shearing.

 

There were lots of local west Wales breeds but they have mostly disappeared, pushed out by foreigners not all of which have done well.

 

It seems that sheep are very dependent on the geology and vegetation so a sheep that thrives in Cardigan may bomb in Barmouth, or even Aberystwyth.

 

Chris, I should check on the history of the LLanwenog breed.They don't seem to have got as far north as Barmouth by the end of the 19th century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanwenog_(sheep)and http://llanwenog-sheep.co.uk/ But they look ideal for Newcastle Emlyn.

 

They do look fairly normal in shape, so some of he commercial models should be OK..

 

One book which is worth a look (but not buying) is "Counting sheep" by Philip Walling (Profile Books) though he is a northerner and doesn't really understand southern or Welsh sheep. I have looked at other books but do not now have the titles to hand.

 

Jonathan

[Penlan]

Mike beat me to it, it is MRD. 

Many thanks ChrisN and Mike, 

Now why couldn't I find that > Because I was thinking from the wrong exhibition - It must have been Southampton I was at, so many exhibitions so little memory.

At 90p each, I must have had a discount for 40 sheep - Bulk buy.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Penlan