Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Anotheran]

I made a comment on Neil's thread that the page above appears to show that there were in 1905 already a limited number of Breweries supplying the pubs in Wales.  Allsops of Burton was one which could have become Bass, and apart from other more local ones there was City Brewery Litchfield.  Thinking about it some more there were quite a number of 'Free' houses which I suppose could indicate that there was a market for the really local small brewer. 

Barley, hops, and malting coal would have come in but I doubt that the local brewery would have had its own van for beer going out.

The City Brewery, Litchfield (now Lichfield of course) was indeed taken over by Bass in the 1920s, while Allsop's, having gone through receivership, merged with Ind Coope in the 30s which merged subsequently into Allied Brewers in the 70s. I suspect you're right about local brewers being unlikely to have their own van as I would have thought that the small local brewers were likely to have most of their deliveries by cart rather than over the greater distances for which the trains may have been used by the larger breweries. But where they existed the ingredients would have needed to come in... so more potential traffic if we can find those small local brewers.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[Simond]

At one time Norfolk brely was shipped all over the place including Dublin to make guiness. The trade diminished with the coming of the railway so I assume it was moved around in wagons.

Don

Don

 

I guess barley going around the country, would have been in sailing coasters - surely so before the rails got there. Your comment about the trade diminishing in Norfolk with the coming of the railway suggests that either it started from somewhere else, as a result of the "railwayfication" of the countryside, or as a result of other processing changing. Apparently it became the practice to make the malt, and ship that, rather than the barley, around the country. See second paragraph under "Malt houses in The UK"

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malt_house

 

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

The City Brewery, Litchfield (now Lichfield of course) was indeed taken over by Bass in the 1920s, while Allsop's, having gone through receivership, merged with Ind Coope in the 30s which merged subsequently into Allied Brewers in the 70s. I suspect you're right about local brewers being unlikely to have their own van as I would have thought that the small local brewers were likely to have most of their deliveries by cart rather than over the greater distances for which the trains may have been used by the larger breweries. But where they existed the ingredients would have needed to come in... so more potential traffic if we can find those small local brewers.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

What is interesting is that everything that a town needed, unless it was produced locally came through the railway, so finding where it might have come from in whose vans will add interest.  It appears that I can have a North British and a Great Eastern van among others.

 

Have you seen Mikkel's thread?  The link to his blog is in his signature.  It is very interesting in terms of packing, and the blog has more as well.  The goods shed should have, boxes, barrels and sacks plus all the carts to take them away.  If there is a parade down Station Road, I can see that there will be a number of carts waiting to get out of the yard at Traeth Mawr.

[Anotheran]

Thank you for that link Chris. Mikkel's thread is now on my watch list! I particularly like his crates!

 

One of the things I'm looking forward to most on NE is the filling of the goods area (and indeed the station platform as I have a photo of that with dozens of rabbit crates!)

[ChrisN]

Thank you for that link Chris. Mikkel's thread is now on my watch list! I particularly like his crates!

 

One of the things I'm looking forward to most on NE is the filling of the goods area (and indeed the station platform as I have a photo of that with dozens of rabbit crates!)

 

Neil,

Rabbits!  What did they put the crates in?  A van, the guards van?

 

On Mikkel's blog he makes sacks and talks about barrels, and how crates were ubiquitous before cardboard boxes.  Just another world.

[Penlan]

I have a Ransomes (Ipswich) plough on a GE flat wagon..... making an occasional appearance near Swansea on my Layout.....

Presumably 'Traeth Mawr' is to small to have it's own Cambrian Rlys Delivery Wagon.....

I think I was pushing it a bit for my small station of 'Penlan'...

No, it's not hand lettered, the paper cover (glued to a thin brass sheet former), is printed off.

I used Excel, because I knew what I was doing with that, and you can use page set to scale the size for printing, I think this came off at 17% of the actual drawing size, with photo's etc., for the Barnum's Poster.

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

No help to you at all, but the ballast I use is Malvern Granite, as I use to live in Malvern. It's a sort of mid brown, which seems to look OK to me, slightly weathered, not that bright grey stuff people seem to use.
I still have, from my days working on the M5 construction in the late 1960's, a set of brass sieves (Soil Mechanics was another string to my bow)..

I use to collect Granite particles in buckets from the Malvern hills and then sieve down to the size(s) I required.

I'm of the school that lays the ballast, then with some form of pipette, or more likely a syringe, ease dilute PVA (including Fairy Liquid) in to the edges of the ballast and let it permeate it's way in to the centre of the track -

By implication, I've stuck the track down (long) before this happens..

[Penlan]

.... and other traffic.... I know I had some delivery notes, which are now probably with the Welsh Railways Research Circle, for Hen Houses, I think there were a dozen.  These are the type of around 15ft long with small cast iron wheels on them so the farmer can move them around the fields, yard or whatever.  

They came from Carmarthen and were delivered to Knighton (Radnorshire).
Presumably there were some chickens around Traeth Mawr ?
They were delivered on GWR flats, much to the chagrin of the local Camarthen LNWR Goods Agent.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

... and another bit of variety,

Furniture containers, these I think were the Dapol ones you could, and possibly still can, buy as separate items.

Yes, I know I've got the North Staffs wagon in grey, it was based on B&W photo some 45+ years ago.  
The  'J.Harrison' unit is based on one in a North Staffs Railway Album.

The 'G.C.Waithmans' lettering is based on a furniture van body I found on an allotment in LLandrindod Wells.
I was interested in this one as I lived in Malvern Link at the time.
Much the same as I now have one from a west Cornwall Firm....

There were of course some bigger units that had their own wheels fixed on etc., and required 'Lowmac' equivalents.....
Yes, those are meant to be signal wire posts in the foreground, on the track side there are pullys/runners..

Edited May 24, 2015 by Penlan

[Donw]

Don

 

I guess barley going around the country, would have been in sailing coasters - surely so before the rails got there. Your comment about the trade diminishing in Norfolk with the coming of the railway suggests that either it started from somewhere else, as a result of the "railwayfication" of the countryside, or as a result of other processing changing. Apparently it became the practice to make the malt, and ship that, rather than the barley, around the country. See second paragraph under "Malt houses in The UK"

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malt_house

 

Best

Simon

 

Barely was malted and shipped from Wells Next the Sea. The shipping tended to fade with the coming of the railways . The coal would have previously arrived by ship probably now came by rail and the malt went out that way. Norfolk Barley was regarded as some of the finest for malting. I suspect a lot went to the London Breweries. My comments were really to show that ingredients could come from miles away during victorian times. There would be a fair amount of foreign wagons carrying goods inwards to an area.

Don

[Simond]

Had a holiday near Wells next the Sea years ago - very pleasant couple of weeks. Went to a nearby pub one evening and on the stroll back to the digs, did my good deed of the year, by disturbing some rather surprised clergy from their dinner to tell them that their lounge was on fire! Happily, only a little, and it was easily extinguished.

 

I do agree with your thoughts regarding the "foreign" wagons

 

Best

Simon

[corneliuslundie]

You can tell how much barley must have been exported from East Anglia by the number of large maltings there were (and some still exist). At least I assume they were not all chronic drunkards in the area.

 

The comment about everything coming in by rail is true and useful. but do not despair of modelling everything as the majority of loads would have come in foreign sheeted open wagons. Vans were not at all common in the 1890s except for specific traffics (butter being one, as it had to be kept cool).

 

Sorry about setting  a hare running about gunpowder vans. If we ever meet up I'll buy it from you, but probably not worth the postage and I don't get to your neck of the woods these days.

 

Apart from coal, a lot of finished engineering goods would have come from the West Midlands/Black Country/Staffordshire probably in LNWR, Midland, GWR or North Staffs wagons. More locally, lime might have come from Porthywaen, though I am not sure when it started and if it went west or only east (see Mike Lloyd's book for inspiration). Anew car for the doctor or the vicar?

 

But most small loads would have come and gone in a van on a goods train which was unloaded/loaded at each station and probably, if it was like the GWR, ran to a regular schedule. All sorts of packages  from tea and biscuits to imported luxuries and unwapped items (these newfangled bicycles, perhaps?) in all shapes and sizes, many to be delivered by the most junior member of station staff on a hand barrow. Also apparently young animals in guards' vans. And if Traeth Mawr had pretensions as a holiday resort, then at certain times of year luggage in advance - large trunks in those days.

 

I'm sure others will come up with other suggestions.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

I have a Ransomes (Ipswich) plough on a GE flat wagon..... making an occasional appearance near Swansea on my Layout.....

Presumably 'Traeth Mawr' is to small to have it's own Cambrian Rlys Delivery Wagon.....

I think I was pushing it a bit for my small station of 'Penlan'...

No, it's not hand lettered, the paper cover (glued to a thin brass sheet former), is printed off.

I used Excel, because I knew what I was doing with that, and you can use page set to scale the size for printing, I think this came off at 17% of the actual drawing size, with photo's etc., for the Barnum's Poster.

 

LNWRDeliveryB.jpg

 

Penlan,

If the Rural Life Museum in Reading they have a whole wall full, hung up that is, of different types of plough from different parts of the country.  Different I presume as they were developed for different types of soil and soil conditions.  I assume that by the end of the Victorian period a certain amount of 'globalisation' was occurring.  Not that there would be I think a lot of call for ploughs around Traeth Mawr.

 

Delivery Van:  The narrow gauge railway has one even if its main job is to collect from the Cambrian and take it half a mile up to its own station.  The Cambrian, or more particularly, the Cambrian Station Master, Mostyn Price feels their position acutely and does not wish to feel inferior to the 'Toy Train' that runs up the valley.  When he arrived in 1890 he started petitioning his bosses to have one and now a year after through coaches and the Dolgelley trains began to stop at Traeth Mawr he thinks he has finally convinced them.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ChrisN

[Simond]

Tried to find Penlan's long, wheeled chicken coops as I fancied building a couple as loads, but could only find this one.

 

http://curbstonevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/farmersandcottagers6.jpg

 

Anyone got a picture?

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

No help to you at all, but the ballast I use is Malvern Granite, as I use to live in Malvern. It's a sort of mid brown, which seems to look OK to me, slightly weathered, not that bright grey stuff people seem to use.

I still have, from my days working on the M5 construction in the late 1960's, a set of brass sieves (Soil Mechanics was another string to my bow)..

I use to collect Granite particles in buckets from the Malvern hills and then sieve down to the size(s) I required.

I'm of the school that lays the ballast, then with some form of pipette, or more likely a syringe, ease dilute PVA (including Fairy Liquid) in to the edges of the ballast and let it permeate it's way in to the centre of the track -

By implication, I've stuck the track down (long) before this happens..

 

Penlan,

Thank you.  I have four lines on my Fiddle yard, now I have four methods to trial. 

[ChrisN]

.... and other traffic.... I know I had some delivery notes, which are now probably with the Welsh Railways Research Circle, for Hen Houses, I think there were a dozen.  These are the type of around 15ft long with small cast iron wheels on them so the farmer can move them around the fields, yard or whatever.  

They came from Carmarthen and were delivered to Knighton (Radnorshire).

Presumably there were some chickens around Traeth Mawr ?

They were delivered on GWR flats, much to the chagrin of the local Camarthen LNWR Goods Agent.

 

Penlan, 

Another couple of interesting posts.  Lots of people had chickens.   Evan Lewis the narrow gauge Station  Master is already scratching his head about getting a 15ft chicken coup up his line.

 

Moving Vans:  I had decided against these, for some reason, but I have been looking at the Barmouth census of 1901.  Why?  Well, the 1891 census is not available.     I have nt been through it all yet but it confirms what the history of Barmouth says that the railway change the makeup of the population.  Alongside the people born in Barmouth, or surrounding areas who only speak Welsh there is the same group who speak both languages plus quite a number from further afield who only speak English, so moving vans from anywhere would be appropriate.

[Penlan]

..... Vans were not at all common in the 1890s except for specific traffics (butter being one, as it had to be kept cool)......

Kerry Gold....

A LNWR Dia.19 Irish Butter Van (D&S Kit)

.. and a Page 277 (1898 Dia Book) 25ft Bullion Van NPCS. It was a special commission one off etched zinc sides/ends body by Trevor Charlton.  It's mounted on a D&S 25' Chassis.

This combo has run for many years on 'Penlan', though the Butter Van has only a hand brake and no through pipe.

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Barely was malted and shipped from Wells Next the Sea. The shipping tended to fade with the coming of the railways . The coal would have previously arrived by ship probably now came by rail and the malt went out that way. Norfolk Barley was regarded as some of the finest for malting. I suspect a lot went to the London Breweries. My comments were really to show that ingredients could come from miles away during victorian times. There would be a fair amount of foreign wagons carrying goods inwards to an area.

Don

 

Don,

Another fact that I did not know.  I am not sure who the Norfolk Brewery is but I can think of three still existing breweries going south plus one which I know has closed so plenty of traffic that way.  I assume that it would go along the joint line to the Midlands and thence to Wales.

 

So NBR vans delivering barley for animal feed or going through, a GE van delivering malt, and a coal wagon going through taking malting coal to wherever the barley was going to.  I have not found evidence of a brewery up that way then but maybe I am mistaken.

[coachmann]

On Sundays, me paw drank draft Guinness and I drank draft Cider. By the time we sat down for tea there were drafts everywhere. I blame the arsenick....

[ChrisN]

You can tell how much barley must have been exported from East Anglia by the number of large maltings there were (and some still exist). At least I assume they were not all chronic drunkards in the area.

 

The comment about everything coming in by rail is true and useful. but do not despair of modelling everything as the majority of loads would have come in foreign sheeted open wagons. Vans were not at all common in the 1890s except for specific traffics (butter being one, as it had to be kept cool).

 

Sorry about setting  a hare running about gunpowder vans. If we ever meet up I'll buy it from you, but probably not worth the postage and I don't get to your neck of the woods these days.

 

Apart from coal, a lot of finished engineering goods would have come from the West Midlands/Black Country/Staffordshire probably in LNWR, Midland, GWR or North Staffs wagons. More locally, lime might have come from Porthywaen, though I am not sure when it started and if it went west or only east (see Mike Lloyd's book for inspiration). Anew car for the doctor or the vicar?

 

But most small loads would have come and gone in a van on a goods train which was unloaded/loaded at each station and probably, if it was like the GWR, ran to a regular schedule. All sorts of packages  from tea and biscuits to imported luxuries and unwapped items (these newfangled bicycles, perhaps?) in all shapes and sizes, many to be delivered by the most junior member of station staff on a hand barrow. Also apparently young animals in guards' vans. And if Traeth Mawr had pretensions as a holiday resort, then at certain times of year luggage in advance - large trunks in those days.

 

I'm sure others will come up with other suggestions.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I thought I had bought enough Cambrian 2 plank wagons but perhaps not, we shall see.  I assume that you have seen Mikkel's blog.  I will be making boxes, bags and barrels, or maybe buying some of them.  Plenty of scope for open wagons from other companies.

 

Where would butter have come from?  I am not sure where the nearest diary region is/was.  I will look but maybe not today.

 

Not to worry about the Gunpowder van,  I had already bought it before you said.  I always when I bid on EBay put a bid in that is my maximum price and if it gets beaten then that is not a problem, I will wait for it to come round again, so I will not have paid too much for it.

 

Finished engineering goods:  Last week at ExpoEM Bill Bedford commented that there was a lot of ship building along the coast.  In fact Barmouth was famous for it, although maybe not in 1901 as I have not seen any ship builders in the census as far as I can remember, so there would have been deliveries of say propellers or other things.  Up from the foundries of the south via the GWR, the North via LNWR, or the Midlands via both?

 

Definitely a tourist resort, definitely lots of luggage.

[Penlan]

..... Last week at ExpoEM Bill Bedford commented that there was a lot of ship building along the coast.  In fact Barmouth was famous for it, although maybe not in 1901 

Ships ? perhaps boats, and living near Newlyn I'm always surprised how small propellers are relative to the boats they propel, 

.

Meanwhile, have you tried a period Directory, though I admit Kelly's are thin on the ground for your area, and at £21, this Slater's one on a CD seems a little steep, perhaps you may know a cheaper source..   It depends how bogged down you want to get in the research. . http://www.parishchest.com/north_mid_wales_directory_1895_slater_s__P9392

Edited May 24, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Tried to find Penlan's long, wheeled chicken coops as I fancied building a couple as loads, but could only find this one.

 

http://curbstonevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/farmersandcottagers6.jpg

 

Anyone got a picture?

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

You did better than I did finding a picture.  I am sure I know what they look like but cannot find the evidence.

[ChrisN]

Ships ? perhaps boats, and living near Newlyn I'm always surprised how small propellers are relative to the boats they propel, 

.

Meanwhile, have you tried a period Directory, though I admit Kelly's are thin on the ground for your area, and at £21, this Slater's one on a CD seems a little steep, perhaps you may know a cheaper source..   It depends how bogged down you want to get in the research. . http://www.parishchest.com/north_mid_wales_directory_1895_slater_s__P9392

 

Penlan,

Ships?  Yes I meant boats.

 

That book looks very interesting but I think I would prefer to spend the money on the railway and see what I can find on the internet.

[Simond]

propellors - yes, water is quite thick stuff....  we have a boat,  it is astonishing that the full power output of a 306 hp truck engine is absorbed by something only a little larger than a desk fan.

 

And in my yoof, I worked in Cammell Lairds - I remember the first time they started the engines on the ship I was working on - this was a 17500 hp, 5 cylinder engine, best part of four decks high, cylinders about 750mm x 2m stroke, crankshaft that weighed over 90 tons.  The prop on that was about 5 or 6 metres diameter, the ship was a StaT55, of 55,000t capacity. 

 

best

Simon

[corneliuslundie]

I don;'t know about Barmouth but west of Machynlleth the railway killed the boat building business - partly but I think not only because the railway cut off the wharves from the village. There is quite a bit in Rick Green's volume 1 on the coast lines, including information on the sizes of boats being built. I suspect the sizes were similar further north.

 

I suspect butter vans only served major centres, though possibly there might have been traffic from Traeth Mawr to Wolverhampton or somewhere similar in a LNWR van. There would have been plenty of locally produced butter for local consumption.

 

And I DON'T think you can justify a bullion van! I'd like to know how Penlan wrote his into the script for Penlan.

 

Jonathan