Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris

 

It's been quite a while since my last visit so it is good to see that progress is being made no matter how slowly and I am impressed by all the research that you do to get things right.

 

I can't help much with Cambrian knowledge but I find it interesting as I can use that information to have a few foreign wagons on my own layout, some slate wagons delivering goods to the Culm and Exe valleys at the turn of the century sounds perfectly feasible to me.

 

On the subject of the Cambrian I do have a GWR Rules & Regulations poster from the 1920s which was apparently from one of the stations on the line, It had been used as a general notice board later in its life as the rear has the remains of chalked notices referring to Penychain where the old Butlins camp was.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

Thank you.  I think most of the research has been done by others to be honest.  I am not a rivet counter but I do find looking at the history very interesting.  The two books I bought for 1p each are full of diagrams of houses.  The problem being that I will only have room for one on the layout probably.  What the final result will be is anybody's guess.  Hopefully the atmosphere will be right and the 1907 gunpowder van will run when there is not a camera around.

 

There is a thread I think in Pre-Grouping that talks about how many foreign wagons were around, and Mikkel's thread and blog discusses it as well.  I am sure you could have all sorts of things delivered from time to time, as well as slates from Blaneau Festiniog.

[Donw]

Chris looking at Green's coast lines vol 2 at Barmouth Junction Station there appears to be little difference in the platform surface between Cambrian days and later. Some photos do seem to show some evidence of paving but most seem to show a gritty sort of finish (Ashpalt?) with stone edgings.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Chris looking at Green's coast lines vol 2 at Barmouth Junction Station there appears to be little difference in the platform surface between Cambrian days and later. Some photos do seem to show some evidence of paving but most seem to show a gritty sort of finish (Ashpalt?) with stone edgings.

 

Don

 

Don,

That is useful.  The photo you showed of Barmouth showed that it seemed to be paved almost all over.  However I will now go and trawl through Vol 2to see what other stations were like and assume that they had not changed.

[Mikkel]

I looked at the ABS GWR medium cattle wagon, this and the mink were the only ones off the list he had, and it said on it as per 1905 condition.  Shame as I will need cattle wagons although I am not quite sure where the cattle pens will go. 

 

Hi Chris, backdating this kit shouldn't be too difficult I think. If I remember correctly what makes it "post-1905" are the oil axleboxes, the locking mechanism on the doors and the partition locking bar. The axle boxes could be replaced with grease axleboxes and W irons from MJT, the locking mechanism is done with brass wire anyway so you can just fashion it differently, and the locking bar can simply be left off.  For what it's worth, I did the post-1905 build if you want to see whether the kit is of interest to you.

[ChrisN]

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I will look at that kit again.  I would like some cattle trucks and if it is that easy then it should be no problem to back date.  I am trying to keep it simple at the moment as it seems I have a lot of irons in the fire, at least potentially.

 

I remember reading that post but was a little confused, who has to wear the corset to make it work? 

Edited May 20, 2015 by ChrisN

[MikeOxon]

......... I did the post-1905 build if you want to see whether the kit is of interest to you.

 

One link leads to another ... In a reply to the fascinating post about Mikkel's cattle truck, Ian Smith showed a photo of Bath Goods Shed http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/52902-bath-goods-shed/

 

It's always worth looking around photos like that for interesting snippets.  Are those a couple of the camera-shy Provender Wagons on the left of the image?  And what is in the wagon in the foreground?  Could they be some seal skins, as mentioned in a list of items needing to be transferred at Gloucester? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74168-pre-grouping-general-discussion/?p=1752490

 

More intriguingly, and I hope this is just my vivid imagination, there is what looks a bit like a human head at the far left corner of the same wagon (enlarge image to see).  I hope I haven't stumbled on an old murder mystery!!! (shades of 'The Ladykillers')

Edited May 20, 2015 by MikeOxon

[MarkAustin]

So far as I am aware the LNWr locos did not go further than Afon Wen but even if they did I would expect it would only be to Pwllheli or Portmadoc. In pregrouping days in particular the originating company tried to arrange things to give themselves the lions share of the proceeds so the LNWR would do better if the traffic was handed to the Cambrian at Afon Wen for anywhere from BArmouth north while the Cambrian would do better if it went by Welshpool.  I believe empties were returned by the same route they went.  So I imagine that Cambrian 3 plankers loaded with slate would go via Welshpool unless for local use.

 

Don

Not sure about this. The RCH established shortest route paths fairly early in its career, and revenue was shared based on that. Unless the routes were about the same length, and alternatives, I don't think it would make any financial difference.

 

having said that, various companies got up to shenanigans to maximise their revenue. The GWRencouraged traffic to London, in particular to the docks, to go to Brentford Docks, where is was shipped by a company allied with the GWR.

[mike morley]

I'm with Don on this one.  The final say about route was with the customer, not the RCH, and the more in-depth histories of most railways mention head offices urging station agents and masters to persuade customers to send their wares by routes that would bring most profit to the company.

[ChrisN]

One link leads to another ... In a reply to the fascinating post about Mikkel's cattle truck, Ian Smith showed a photo of Bath Goods Shed http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/52902-bath-goods-shed/

 

It's always worth looking around photos like that for interesting snippets.  Are those a couple of the camera-shy Provender Wagons on the left of the image?  And what is in the wagon in the foreground?  Could they be some seal skins, as mentioned in a list of items needing to be transferred at Gloucester? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74168-pre-grouping-general-discussion/?p=1752490

 

More intriguingly, and I hope this is just my vivid imagination, there is what looks a bit like a human head at the far left corner of the same wagon (enlarge image to see).  I hope I haven't stumbled on an old murder mystery!!! (shades of 'The Ladykillers')

 

Mike,

Would the seal skins not have been wrapped?  I cannot see a head in the wagon, although I can see where you mean.

[MikeOxon]

Mike,

Would the seal skins not have been wrapped?  I cannot see a head in the wagon, although I can see where you mean.

good - just my vivid imagination :)

[corneliuslundie]

On routes for goods traffic, when the Cambrian opened its Wrexham and Ellesmere branch it sent out circulars to its agents (stationmasters) instructing them to persuade their customers to specify this route when possible for coal from the Wrexham area. Presumably the Cambrian got a bigger share of the proceeds that way, though it was not the shortest route. They are in Mike Lloyd's book on PO wagons.

 

Jonathan

[Mikkel]

Mike,

Would the seal skins not have been wrapped?  I cannot see a head in the wagon, although I can see where you mean.

 

I think maybe they are also a little rough for seal skin? Whatever it is, it does look like a very time consuming way to carry goods if those are individual items just piled in. Unless they are fragile items wrapped in protective covers of some kind?

 

Mike I see what you mean about the head. Looks scary but just a trick of light and shadow I hope!

[Donw]

I believe the work the RCH did was agreeing exchange points between railways then agreeing the mileages charged to avoid disputes, the railways could choose which route they adopted so the key thing was to get the customer to give the job to them and not their rivals. Similarly there was encouragement for passenger to choose the route they took. Similarly to go from London to Portmadoc you had a choice of four routes two LNWR and Cambrian, two GWR and Cambrian Freight could also use the routes.

 

Don

[Penlan]

I don't know if there was much afforestation around Barmouth........

...... but one of the traffics on the Central Wales Line, mainly around Bucknell, was bark.  

When the trees were stripped of their bark, it was transported by cart to Bucknell and then piled up into large (hay) ricks, which was then loaded into open wagons, once there was a decent train load to be moved.
Again, somewhere I have some photo's of this traffic, but where..........  

The bark was used in the tanning industry.

[Penlan]

Re. RCH, though off track a bit - there's plenty of more important things to do in the modelling world -  but there's a book on the RCH.
'The Railway Clearing House (in the British Economy 1842 - 1922) by Richard Bagwell.  

Published in 1968 by Geoerge Allen & Unwin (or my copy was).  SBN 04 331037 0.  Priced at 60s (shillings).

[ChrisN]

I have at last completed the spacings with ballast test.  This is the first time I have done ballasting of any sort so it was also a learning experience for me, plus the test of a new product.  I took two old lengths of settrack and used PVA to stick them to two pieces of cardboard.  When I was at ExpoEM last week I was told about 'Ballast Magic' made by Deluxe products.  The idea is that you mix it with the ballast and then just wet it and it fixes the ballast.  The advantage apparently is that it is not as solid with the baseboard as PVA is and so does not undo the sound deadening qualities of the cork.  Well, it sounded convincing at the time but I am not sure that I have explained it that well.

 

I began to feel a little uneasy as if it does not stick down as firmly would it fall out when I lifted my boards?  How much does ballast stuck with PVA or Copydex fall out under those conditions. The mix was best at 1:7, which is not 7% as I was told.  I used a plastic 15ml measure used for making bread, it was ok, 1) my wife was out but would not have cared anyway I think, and 2) I use metal measures when I make bread.  I mixed it in an old plastic tub that had once contained dishwasher tablets.  (Come on, don't tell me you do not collect containers that might just come in useful one day.  These had survived a house move as well.)  I used Carrs 2mm ballast and mixed it with this white powder.  Now, if you have two granular substances of different sizes the smaller one will always sink to the bottom.  Well, for about 20 minutes while my grandson played 'Legos', (a Lego train of course), I stirred it, shook it from side to side, put the lid on and tipped it upside down, took the lid off and tipped it and mixed it some more all the time inhaling probably white powder.  At the end of the time it looked like this:-

 

 

However, the ballast itself did look paler as if it was being coated with the stuff.  In the end I decided that it would never mix and if I was going to do it I should just get on with it.  I tipped out the ballast onto the track and of course it appeared out of the side.  I was surprised but I had cut away the sleeper connectors so I should not have been.  I the levelled it out with a paint brush and realised just how useful Westerham Station's patent ballaster with added toothbrush would be.

 

I wanted the ballast to come to the top of the sleepers as on photographs even up to 1906 it seems it was that  deep.  I was able to tip up the cardboard and brush excess ballast off into my container.  I then spayed it liberally with water using and old anti bacterial spray container which is used to spray the ironing when needed.   Everywhere was quite damp.  I should have said I was doing this on the dining table but that has a plastic type cloth on, and I put two sheets of newspaper plus a cutting board onto which I put the card and track.  I mopped up the water on the board and realised I should have mopped the cardboard first as it had all soaked in.  When dry it looked like this:-

 

 

I have put them either side of a point whose spacings will not be altered as Anotheran suggested this, well almost but I did not want to ballast a point as well.  I then picked them up and turned them over and this was the result.

 

 

I have lost whole chunks of the stuff but I think this was where there was concentrated 'Magic' and not much ballast.  The contrast seems better at the bottom so I took another set of pictures the other way round.

 

 

Looking at them again I think the better contrast is to do with where it is on my screen as just rotating the pictures gave better contrast every time at the bottom.

 

There are now two questions.  1) Will I use Ballast Magic when it comes to the actual ballasting, and 2) which spacing will I use?

 

The answer to the first one is easy.  I am not sure.  It appealed to me as there have been various comments about PVA causing clumping, and Copydex really only working with thin sleepers.  I think I am right in wanting it up to the top of the sleepers.  Where it has worked it seems to have worked well.  If I do use it I will have to make sure I mix it some more and apply it differently so that I do not end up with whole areas just of magic.  Maybe mixing to 1:5 and transferring it to a patent ballaster so that only the mixed stuff goes in which will be nearer 1:7.

 

As to the spacings, what does everyone else think?  I will let you know what the spacings are when I have some opinions as I do not want to sway the result.  I also think the ballast should be paler, but that is a discussion to be had later.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[emt_911]

Chris. It's interesting to find out that the info given was different to reality. Apart from the colour it does look good.

 

As for the sleeper spacing, I honestly don't know which one you should use. However, for accurate spacing Brian's Hawthorn Town has a cracking idea http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89435-hawthorn-town-mk-2-working-title/page-13&do=findComment&comment=1895669

 

Hope some of this helps

[ChrisN]

Chris. It's interesting to find out that the info given was different to reality. Apart from the colour it does look good.

 

As for the sleeper spacing, I honestly don't know which one you should use. However, for accurate spacing Brian's Hawthorn Town has a cracking idea http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89435-hawthorn-town-mk-2-working-title/page-13&do=findComment&comment=1895669

 

Hope some of this helps

 

Duncan,

Thanks.  I think to be fair it does do what it says it does, it is just the mixing that is the problem.

 

I notice that Brian's one does both sides at once which is a great advantage, you will notice mine still looks a little like crazy track.  (Old 009 track that had deliberately wonky sleepers.)

[mike morley]

Ballasting is One of Those Jobs and I'm afraid there is no alternative to having your brains trickle out through your ears as the task erodes your will to live.

 

Some recommend the Little and Often approach.

Others go for get-into-a-rhythm-and-keep-at-it endurance approach.

I personally prefer the latter, but the best approach is whichever suits you.

 

Another thing to which there is no alternative is having a lot of your first (and probably the second, and - if you are unlucky - a fair bit of the third) attempt fall off when you up-end the baseboards.  When that happens, you resist the urge to slash your wrists (I find alcohol helps) and start again.

 

The key word here, I think, is perseverance.

[ChrisN]

Ballasting is One of Those Jobs and I'm afraid there is no alternative to having your brains trickle out through your ears as the task erodes your will to live.

 

Some recommend the Little and Often approach.

Others go for get-into-a-rhythm-and-keep-at-it endurance approach.

I personally prefer the latter, but the best approach is whichever suits you.

 

Another thing to which there is no alternative is having a lot of your first (and probably the second, and - if you are unlucky - a fair bit of the third) attempt fall off when you up-end the baseboards.  When that happens, you resist the urge to slash your wrists (I find alcohol helps) and start again.

 

The key word here, I think, is perseverance.

 

Mike,

Thanks.  If I am expecting a fair bit to come off then I will feel happier when it does.  Not having to move it would of course help, but that is not a possibility.  To be honest there is not a lot to do but I shall definitely make a ballaster.  Also, I want to make sure everything is running properly before I get to ballasting.

[aberdare]

Hi Chris

 

I prefer the closer sleeper spacing of the two samples shown.

 

As for ballasting I do a little at the end of a modelling session and leave it overnight, the ballast is stuck down with PVA which I feed in between the sleepers from a bottle with a long nozzle that fits quite nicely between them and when it has sread and levelled a bit I sprinkle the ballast on. A light brush smooths it out without pulling clumps out, the excess is vacuumed up in the morning, the few gaps I end up with are then filled.

I also do a few small sections (4 or 5 spaces) here and there to check alignment first, once happy I then do all the centres and then the edges, it's just what works for me as we all have our methods.

 

It takes a while but I don't get bored and the end result is something I am happy with.

 

Jim

[Simond]

Chris

 

FWIW I think I prefer the smaller spacing.

 

I have done the PVA + water + Fairy Liquid route, and it's a PITA but it does allow you to get a ballast shoulder.

 

Where I can use thinner sleepers, Copydex sounds like the preferred plan, but I haven't tried it yet.

 

Best

Simon

[mike morley]

I use Copydex.

If you either make a hash of it or later decide to change the alignment of that piece of track, it is possible to lift it and re-lay it without destroying it.  It also results in quieter running than PVA.

[ChrisN]

Chris

 

FWIW I think I prefer the smaller spacing.

 

I have done the PVA + water + Fairy Liquid route, and it's a PITA but it does allow you to get a ballast shoulder.

 

Where I can use thinner sleepers, Copydex sounds like the preferred plan, but I haven't tried it yet.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

Have you had problems with clumping as this is what is reported as the main problem with it?  I will have to do a trial on the boards when the track is down.  To be fair to 'Magic' a lot of it looks fine and one section has come away because the card had bowed.  Yes, I can see a ballasted fiddle yard.

[ChrisN]

I use Copydex.

If you either make a hash of it or later decide to change the alignment of that piece of track, it is possible to lift it and re-lay it without destroying it.  It also results in quieter running than PVA.

 

Mike,

I assume that is for both track and ballast?  Would Copydex hold on the tight curves that I have?  How thin are your sleepers and do you need to do more than one layer to get the thickness you want?