Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Yes, get ABS/Fourmost kits at Expo EM while you can. He very rarely attends shows, has no website of e-mail address and no other traders seems to stock them these days. Lots of useful wagons and usually easy to make and pretty accurate.

 

I also rate 51L kits along with David Geen's (soke of the ex Great Western Wagons). And watch out for remainders of some of the cast wagon kits by Woodham Wagon Works and 5 & 9 Models, neither of which seem to be easily available now but whose range includes some delightful, quirky little dumb buffered coal wagons ideal for a coal merchant in 1895.

 

I have one of the ABS GWR brake vans already built. I must see what is needed to convert it to the one that ran on the Kerry branch - essential really for Sarn. (By the way, just to confuse things I discovered reading "Rails to Talerddig" that Carno was original,ly called Sarn.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I will make ABS my first port of call.  I will try and plan out what I want to buy, probably tomorrow night, so that when I get there I know where to go and limit myself to what will be immediately useful.  I can hear my wallet screaming even now.  ABS, whitemetal, what more could I ask?  If you have any suggestions of what to get please let me know.

 

Was it you that told me 5&9 were available through eBay?  He has his own shop on there and sells kits as and when available.  He is selling figures at the moment but they are going quickly.  Woodham Wagon Works I will look out for as well.

[ChrisN]

As the thread has gone down several different tracks recently, and all around the houses, (literally on both counts), I thought it was about time I put up some modelling.

 

Firstly the range.

 

 

As I have said previously this cottage did not have a fireplace big enough for the range so it must have been in the kitchen.  This one seems small enough to go against the end wall.  I am not sure why I have made this already as it will be almost the last thing in place except that I wanted to.

 

Here is the first attempt.

 

 

This is from 20 thou plasticard and I thought I would attach plaststrut legs.  I thought better of it and redid it in 10 thou plasticard, fashioning the legs in one piece.  Unpainted it looked like this.

 

 

The oven door and the fire door are rectangles of 10 thou plasticard.  The door hinges are thin rod,  The one under the fire was glued and then cut, the oven hinges could not be done like this so they were cut, Plastic Weld put on next to the door, they were picked up by licking my finger and touching them and then putting them on the range and sliding my finger away.  The top one had a little to much glue so the rod sank in slightly. 

 

The fire grate door was great fun as it needs to be bent.  The grate was cut out and had two lines scored so it could be bent, a piece of plasticard was glued underneath to hold it in place, and then it was glued on using Plastic Weld.  Finally a piece of rod was glued to it and it was left to dry.  The rod was then placed on a small pair of pliers to act as a base and it was cut.

 

 

It was painted matt black but the hinges were picked out in grey or they would completely disappear.

 

 

 

At another angle.  This shows I have put grey in the grate, well it could be ash, to show that it is not flat.  This also shows the ledge under the oven door.  All it needs now is a chimney but inspiration has left me but I do not need to do anything about that until it is fitted in the kitchen.

 

Secondly, what I have been working on two strands a day and leaving to dry.  The main supports are 0.75mm square and the cross pieces are from an assortment pack so I have no idea but are smaller.  This is the fire grate.

 

 

I have painted it in Humbrol RC401 Dirty Black although I am sure the lady of the house will be most annoyed.

 

 

I intend to dry brush it with grey to make it look as though there is ash on it but I am not sure how well I could do that as it is so tiny.  The pictures do show up that the inside of the house needs some more work.

 

 

Finally, the grate in position.

 

All the living room pieces need sticking down and I am thinking either Hob-e-tac or Copydex but I am not sure which.

 

Is this all you have done I hear you ask?  No, I have been trying to make hats for 4mm people, which is incredibly difficult, plus starting some more chairs and a desk.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[corneliuslundie]

Chris, I have been through my ABS catalogue, dated 2013, and checked on building dates. Many of the wagons are too recent for you. However, the following could possibly have been seen at Traeth Mawr in 1895.

 

There are a lot of wagons listed in the catalogue but with no prices which means they were not available when the catalogue was prepared, either hopefully to come or withdrawn. Most of those below seem to have been available at the time.

 

I am pretty sure all the ex MAJ LYR wagons are too modern for you

 

F272    GWR pre-diagram O/F brake van (depending on whether the GWR ran its own trains that far, or only to Barmouith Junction)

F292    GWR W2 short cattle wagon (like mine, I think)

F295    GWR V6 Iron Mink

F296    GWR J8/9 Mite pair or Macaw/Match truck (ie timber wagons)

 

F441    GNR 10T 4-plank wagon (should have 9ft 6in wheelbase if it is the right period)

F444    GNR 8T O/F box van piped

F468    GNR 6T 16ft box van

 

F660    MR D 389 8T single bolster pair

 

F671    LNWR D21 cattle wagon early (I think the other version is post 1895 but Mr Swain may know)

F673    LNWR 8T 16ft 9ft wheelbase van (probably)

F679    LNWR gunpowder van (probably)

 

F886    LSWR D1309 5-plank open round end

 

Also ideal for you though they have no prices in my list so probably not available:

F850    LCDR open

F851    SER open

 

Both 51L and David Geen have good websites where you can check information before you buy and usually give dates. If not with David Geen’s kits it is on the packaging or visible on the instructions without opening the pack. And David knows his stuff.

 

Another range, mostly etched if you fancy trying one, is Mousa Models (Bill Bedford). He has an interesting range of earlier wagons and is extremely helpful.

 

My only comment about the above is that I am not sure some of the wagons would have been seen at Traeth Mawr even on through trains. Timber would have been going out on Cambrian wagons. There was regular gunpowder traffic to Penrhyn but I don’t know where it came from. I have omitted specialised wagons such as butter vans.

 

Which may lead to our next discussion: traffic passing through rather than arriving or departing Traeth Mawr.

 

Jonathan

[mike morley]

 

 There was regular gunpowder traffic to Penrhyn but I don’t know where it came from.

 

Gunpowder traffic originated from Penrhyndeudraeth.

Edited May 11, 2015 by mike morley

[Donw]

Er... I said agree to Mike because the factory at Penrhyndeudraeth did ship out Gunpowder but a little nagging thought at the back of my head made me check. The factory was opened during ww1 prviously Cooke's explosives (part of ICI) were in Durham. So at that time Gunpowder would be inward traffic.

 

Don

[mike morley]

I've done a bit of Googling and in 1872 a factory was set up in Penrhyndeudraeth to make guncotton (nitrocellulose; an explosive mixture of nitric acid and cotton) which Cookes took over and changed to manufacturing gunpowder during the Great War.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that explosives traffic originated from Penrhydeudraeth?

[Penlan]

I looked for a online ABS catalogue, for LNWR wagons etc., Obviously my search facilities are not good enough to find any.
The LNWR Societies Model Kits page doesn't list ABS as a provider either - other than the D43A Gunpowder Van. http://lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmWagons.php 

 

The D21 Medium Cattle Wagon was introduced in 1868.

The D22 Long Cattle wagon was introduced in  1869.

The fitted or through pipped versions were introduced in 1919 - both Medium and Long..

I don't think anybody still produces the Medium kit's now, D&S on Ebay etc., or Expo.... are the likely places to find kits.
The Long Cattle Wagon has never been available as a kit as far as I know.

The D33 7T Van (7, not 8 tons) with roof door and doors BOTH sides was another D&S kit which I believe is no longer available.  Introduced in 1894.

Prior to this the D32 Van had a roof door and a side door on ONE side only.

 

The ABS Dia 43A Gunpowder Van was introduced in 1906.  

The D43 was smaller - Not in the style of a Iron Mink. No kit available.

BTW - The London Road Models D438 Horse Box was introduced in 1883.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Penlan

[Penlan]

It doesn't seem to a very good marketing ploy, not to advertise somewhere that can be accessed by the internet.
I'm thinking things like the S4 Society etc., 

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the corrections Mike and Penlan. So it has to be Cambrian gunpowder vans, whatever they looked like. While many companies adopted the GWR iron mink style for their gunpowder vans there are references to earlier vans being wooden bodied. Fortunately they look the same whether loaded or empty.

 

I was interested that Penlan consulted a website for information on ABS. I was under the impression that Mr Swain felt the same about the internet as Wild Swan. I have always dealt with him by post. Any chance of a link? My apologies if I gave duff information. It is a bit difficult to know which items to list as at any one time a lot seem to be unobtainable - the catalogue has long lists only a few of which have prices. And is it sometimes hard from the books to find out building dates. The three Southern company wagon books are good on this as are the GWR ones but not all the others.

 

Anyway, Chris, I am sure you will be able to make a dent in your wallet on Saturday even if not by passing a lot of money to Mr Swain.

 

And D&S, yes. I wonder what kind of prices they go for on e-Bay? And I am never sure which kits he has retained, which were passed on to others and have reappeared and which were passed on to others but have disappeared.

 

Still on through goods traffic, I have been looking at Mike Lloyd's book for PO owners north of Barmouth. A few are listed but there doesn't seem to be much information on their liveries, and not always on the periods they operated (the one from Barmouth which is illustrated is far too modern). There are a few clues about collieries providing coal to the area though.

 

Jonathan

[mike morley]

There used to be a website called Keykits that was shared by IKB and (I think) ABS, but when Kay Butler of IKB retired the site closed.

[Penlan]

If one has to have PO's that actually existed, then yes it can be a problem...

When I was looking at the likes of Hollywell Town (LNWR) I used an old Kelly's Directory and picked out a Coal Merchant who had a number of outlets, plus making up a livery in the period style.
I ended up with two liveries, one either side of a wagon....
Jones and Llewllyn Jones. Not sure why, probably not paying attention.

The J.B.Deggwood wagon is a tribute to John Degg & Bill Wood, excellent modellers up Stafford way.

Bettall Co-Op is from a joint venture layout  BETTison and croALL - We were going to build a layout together some 25 years ago.  Then I moved out of the Malvern area to the west country.

 

I think the wheels are old PC P4 ones, they certainly have very thin tyres on them.
Yes, there should be a runner wagon under the overhanging planks, but these are quick photos for this reply.....

 

Yes, they are all hand lettered by me.  The red plank was 'fashion' around 1900.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Chris, I have been through my ABS catalogue, dated 2013, and checked on building dates. Many of the wagons are too recent for you. However, the following could possibly have been seen at Traeth Mawr in 1895.

 

There are a lot of wagons listed in the catalogue but with no prices which means they were not available when the catalogue was prepared, either hopefully to come or withdrawn. Most of those below seem to have been available at the time.

 

I am pretty sure all the ex MAJ LYR wagons are too modern for you

 

F272    GWR pre-diagram O/F brake van (depending on whether the GWR ran its own trains that far, or only to Barmouith Junction)

F292    GWR W2 short cattle wagon (like mine, I think)

F295    GWR V6 Iron Mink

F296    GWR J8/9 Mite pair or Macaw/Match truck (ie timber wagons)

 

F441    GNR 10T 4-plank wagon (should have 9ft 6in wheelbase if it is the right period)

F444    GNR 8T O/F box van piped

F468    GNR 6T 16ft box van

 

F660    MR D 389 8T single bolster pair

 

F671    LNWR D21 cattle wagon early (I think the other version is post 1895 but Mr Swain may know)

F673    LNWR 8T 16ft 9ft wheelbase van (probably)

F679    LNWR gunpowder van (probably)

 

F886    LSWR D1309 5-plank open round end

 

Also ideal for you though they have no prices in my list so probably not available:

F850    LCDR open

F851    SER open

 

Both 51L and David Geen have good websites where you can check information before you buy and usually give dates. If not with David Geen’s kits it is on the packaging or visible on the instructions without opening the pack. And David knows his stuff.

 

Another range, mostly etched if you fancy trying one, is Mousa Models (Bill Bedford). He has an interesting range of earlier wagons and is extremely helpful.

 

My only comment about the above is that I am not sure some of the wagons would have been seen at Traeth Mawr even on through trains. Timber would have been going out on Cambrian wagons. There was regular gunpowder traffic to Penrhyn but I don’t know where it came from. I have omitted specialised wagons such as butter vans.

 

Which may lead to our next discussion: traffic passing through rather than arriving or departing Traeth Mawr.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I get the impression that you like your railway wagons.     This sort of list is very helpful, thank you very much.  Believe it or not when it is too late to be modelling I do trawl through various web sites and try and find out what is available for the correct time period, but not always with any sense that I have achieved something or am any the wiser.  LCDR wagons would be interesting as they would go with my LCDR beer wagons.  (The Englishman who lived in Ty Mawr u the valley was partial to Bishop's Finger although I am not sure I can justify 3 covered vans. 

 

I assume that the traffic would not have been anything special along the coast, except for slate.  Also, how much would have come from Machynlleth  or Dolgellau and how much from Afon Wen on the LNWR.  I did wonder about getting a Bachmann Coal Tank which could bring down goods or excursions until such time as I have a proper Cambrian fleet, which could be a long time, but it does not appeal for some reason although the J15 did.

 

 

Thanks for the corrections Mike and Penlan. So it has to be Cambrian gunpowder vans, whatever they looked like. While many companies adopted the GWR iron mink style for their gunpowder vans there are references to earlier vans being wooden bodied. Fortunately they look the same whether loaded or empty.

 

I was interested that Penlan consulted a website for information on ABS. I was under the impression that Mr Swain felt the same about the internet as Wild Swan. I have always dealt with him by post. Any chance of a link? My apologies if I gave duff information. It is a bit difficult to know which items to list as at any one time a lot seem to be unobtainable - the catalogue has long lists only a few of which have prices. And is it sometimes hard from the books to find out building dates. The three Southern company wagon books are good on this as are the GWR ones but not all the others.

 

Anyway, Chris, I am sure you will be able to make a dent in your wallet on Saturday even if not by passing a lot of money to Mr Swain.

 

And D&S, yes. I wonder what kind of prices they go for on e-Bay? And I am never sure which kits he has retained, which were passed on to others and have reappeared and which were passed on to others but have disappeared.

 

Still on through goods traffic, I have been looking at Mike Lloyd's book for PO owners north of Barmouth. A few are listed but there doesn't seem to be much information on their liveries, and not always on the periods they operated (the one from Barmouth which is illustrated is far too modern). There are a few clues about collieries providing coal to the area though.

 

Jonathan

 

 

D&S coach kits seem to go for a fair amount and I have never bid on one, mainly LCDR coaches, and won.  Perhaps I should do a search just for D&S.

[ChrisN]

Gunpowder traffic originated from Penrhyndeudraeth.

 

 

Er... I said agree to Mike because the factory at Penrhyndeudraeth did ship out Gunpowder but a little nagging thought at the back of my head made me check. The factory was opened during ww1 prviously Cooke's explosives (part of ICI) were in Durham. So at that time Gunpowder would be inward traffic.

 

Don

 

 

I've done a bit of Googling and in 1872 a factory was set up in Penrhyndeudraeth to make guncotton (nitrocellulose; an explosive mixture of nitric acid and cotton) which Cookes took over and changed to manufacturing gunpowder during the Great War.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that explosives traffic originated from Penrhydeudraeth?

 

Don & Mike,

Thank you.  I assume that as gun cotton was manufactured at Penryndeudraeth then no other explosive was needed at Blaneau or other mines in the area so all the traffic was out?

 

I bought a Bachmann Gunpowder van but should have checked the number as it was built in 1906, or something like that.  I have not seen many pictures of these vans.

[Penlan]

Have we mentioned beer in Midland wagons from Burton-on-Trent.
There was few vans that went regularly to Swansea from Burton-On-Trent.

[ChrisN]

I looked for a online ABS catalogue, for LNWR wagons etc., Obviously my search facilities are not good enough to find any.

The LNWR Societies Model Kits page doesn't list ABS as a provider either - other than the D43A Gunpowder Van. http://lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmWagons.php 

 

The D21 Medium Cattle Wagon was introduced in 1868.

The D22 Long Cattle wagon was introduced in  1869.

The fitted or through pipped versions were introduced in 1919 - both Medium and Long..

I don't think anybody still produces the Medium kit's now, D&S on Ebay etc., or Expo.... are the likely places to find kits.

The Long Cattle Wagon has never been available as a kit as far as I know.

 

The D33 7T Van (7, not 8 tons) with roof door and doors BOTH sides was another D&S kit which I believe is no longer available.  Introduced in 1894.

Prior to this the D32 Van had a roof door and a side door on ONE side only.

 

The ABS Dia 43A Gunpowder Van was introduced in 1906.  

The D43 was smaller - Not in the style of a Iron Mink. No kit available.

 

BTW - The London Road Models D438 Horse Box was introduced in 1883.

 

Penaln,

Thank you.  I have been through the list of wagons and coaches but have stumbled over when the different wagons were actually produced and have left it until I had more time.  I will definitely have to have a search out for D&S kits.

 

The Ratio LNWR bogie coaches state that they were built from 1891 but the LNWR site seems to say it was much later.  Is that correct?

 

If one has to have PO's that actually existed, then yes it can be a problem...

When I was looking at the likes of Hollywell Town (LNWR) I used an old Kelly's Directory and picked out a Coal Merchant who had a number of outlets, plus making up a livery in the period style.

I ended up with two liveries, one either side of a wagon....

Jones and Llewllyn Jones. Not sure why, probably not paying attention.

The J.B.Deggwood wagon is a tribute to John Degg & Bill Wood, excellent modellers up Stafford way.

Bettall Co-Op is from a joint venture layout  BETTison and croALL - We were going to build a layout together some 25 years ago.  Then I moved out of the Malvern area to the west country.

 

I think the wheels are old PC P4 ones, they certainly have very thin tyres on them.

Yes, there should be a runner wagon under the overhanging planks, but these are quick photos for this reply.....

 

Yes, they are all hand lettered by me.  The red plank was 'fashion' around 1900.

 

E.J.Jones.jpg

 

Llewllyn Jones.jpg

 

I never fail to be impressed by your work.  Keep posting them on here as someone might think it is mine!     (Rest assured if there was a mistake I would point it out that they were yours.)

 

The local coal merchant is yet to be named and buy a wagon, but I am not sure who else would have their own wagons.

[Donw]

I am not convinced the Gun Cotton was carried in Gunpowder wagons there are references to it be transported in bags or tins and kept damp when it was quite safe.

 

There were wagons for the Pwllheli Granite Co I think the Sloping Lettered ones (mine are from Dragon) were the later one the horizontal lettering may be earlier. There were quarries at Minfford and Gimlet Rock.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

I am not convinced the Gun Cotton was carried in Gunpowder wagons there are references to it be transported in bags or tins and kept damp when it was quite safe.

 

There were wagons for the Pwllheli Granite Co I think the Sloping Lettered ones (mine are from Dragon) were the later one the horizontal lettering may be earlier. There were quarries at Minfford and Gimlet Rock.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thanks, I will need to do some more research, or re-read and remember what I have already looked at.

[Penlan]

The Ratio LNWR bogie coaches state that they were built from 1891 but the LNWR site seems to say it was much later.  Is that correct?

They were built 1897 - 1903.

[ChrisN]

They were built 1897 - 1903.

 

Penlan,

Thank you for that clarification.  Can I take the building date as being the same as the diagram date, or rather the diagram date as the first build date?  I get the impression sometimes that they redrew the diagrams so some things were built before the diagram was drawn.

[Penlan]

Penlan,

Thank you for that clarification.  Can I take the building date as being the same as the diagram date, or rather the diagram date as the first build date?  I get the impression sometimes that they redrew the diagrams so some things were built before the diagram was drawn.

I can't find any 50' Corridor Arc roofed coaches like the Ratio kits being built before 1897 for either the LNWR or for WCJS, or at least anything that might have got into your area.  

Again not likely to have reached west Wales, but you can cut down the all third to a 42ft Arc roofed non corridor coach on either a Radial or Bogie underframe, but needs two 'all 3rd compt'. sides and new ends.  There was a time when you could buy spare mouldings from Ratio, I bought a few, for the roof I used the one from the Brake Compo - there's no recess halfway along for a toilet gas lamp(s).  But of course the rain strip doesn't come down far enough at the ends, can always be sanded off and micro-strip added.

I'm fairly certain I widedened the roof by adding 10thou (or more) square section strips along the edges, I did that for all my Ratio roofs.  At least you have the correct curvature on the roof.

 

 

 

The Radial underframe in this instance is a Red Rose product from 40 years ago,

but London Road Models do one now I believe.

Again, my painting and lining.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

Your comment about traffic coming via Avon Wen is apposite. I was chatting to tanatvalley the other day and he mentioned that the Wigan Cola & Iron Co traffic to Portmadoc probably came via that route as it was shorter than via Oswestry. I suspect some other traffic did too, though coal from Staffordshire and the North Wales coalfield would have come via Dolgelley.

 

However, I don't know if LNWR locos ever got beyond the junction onto the Cambrian proper at Avon Wen. According to my 1915 RCH Junction Diagmams book the LNWR had running powers over the whole of the Cambrian but they were at that time oxercised only at Avon Wen station and between Buttington Junction and Welshpool. Of course there were through workings but not many to Barmouth, as we has already been discussed.

 

Other may know more about the situation in 1905.

[Donw]

So far as I am aware the LNWr locos did not go further than Afon Wen but even if they did I would expect it would only be to Pwllheli or Portmadoc. In pregrouping days in particular the originating company tried to arrange things to give themselves the lions share of the proceeds so the LNWR would do better if the traffic was handed to the Cambrian at Afon Wen for anywhere from BArmouth north while the Cambrian would do better if it went by Welshpool.  I believe empties were returned by the same route they went.  So I imagine that Cambrian 3 plankers loaded with slate would go via Welshpool unless for local use.

 

Don

[mike morley]

Wasnt there an occasion when the LNWR North Coast line was blocked (landslip?) and so many of their trains had to be re-routed via Afon Wen and the Cambrian that LNWR engines had to work right through because Oswestry simply didnt have enough engines?  It might have been a one-off, isolated incident but it provides a great excuse for modellers licence.

[Anotheran]

... the Wigan Cola & Iron Co traffic to ...

 

I'm sorry... I know I shouldn't... but the above just jumped out at me an made me think of green father Christmases turning red and Pepsi trying to complete with Coke!

[ChrisN]

 

I can't find any 50' Corridor Arc roofed coaches like the Ratio kits being built before 1897 for either the LNWR or for WCJS, or at least anything that might have got into your area.  

Again not likely to have reached west Wales, but you can cut down the all third to a 42ft Arc roofed non corridor coach on either a Radial or Bogie underframe, but needs two 'all 3rd compt'. sides and new ends.  There was a time when you could buy spare mouldings from Ratio, I bought a few, for the roof I used the one from the Brake Compo - there's no recess halfway along for a toilet gas lamp(s).  But of course the rain strip doesn't come down far enough at the ends, can always be sanded off and micro-strip added.
I'm fairly certain I widedened the roof by adding 10thou (or more) square section strips along the edges, I did that for all my Ratio roofs.  At least you have the correct curvature on the roof.

 

42ft all 3rd.jpg

 

The Radial underframe in this instance is a Red Rose product from 40 years ago,

but London Road Models do one now I believe.

Again, my painting and lining.

 

 

Penlan,

I seem to ask a question and am rewarded by another picture of one of your superb models. 

 

I was hoping with the Ratio kit that I had found an easy way to build a through LNWR coach and that I had misunderstood the information I had read.  That is certainly not the case from your answer.

 

I will eventually have to get to grips with the LNWR coaching and goods stock as along with the GWR they should supply the majority of my 'foreign' stock.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ChrisN