Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

A small clue. In "Rails through Talerddig" it is mentioned that work on Machynlleth gasworks started in 1863. I couldn't find anything about a Barmouth Gas Co when I searched on the net. I don't know whether the gas industry museum still exists. I think it used to be in east London or Essex.

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I have managed to find a Dolgellau history web site that states that Dolgellau had a gas works in the mid 19th century, and there is a line in Cambrian Railways Vol 2 about someone asking permission to lay a gas main in 1875 on or next to the railway.  Also when the houses were built around Tywyn station they had to get permission to lay a sewer under the line.  This points to gas and main drainage being available to Welsh towns in 1895.  I just need to decide whether Traeth Mawr has its own gas works which may or may not affect my layout with the transportation of coal for coking, but either way the houses and station will be gas lit, well the houses anyway.

[Donw]

Jonathan,

I have managed to find a Dolgellau history web site that states that Dolgellau had a gas works in the mid 19th century, and there is a line in Cambrian Railways Vol 2 about someone asking permission to lay a gas main in 1875 on or next to the railway.  Also when the houses were built around Tywyn station they had to get permission to lay a sewer under the line.  This points to gas and main drainage being available to Welsh towns in 1895.  I just need to decide whether Traeth Mawr has its own gas works which may or may not affect my layout with the transportation of coal for coking, but either way the houses and station will be gas lit, well the houses anyway.

 

Can we have a link Chris to save time searching.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

The link to the web site is here.  You will need to do a Ctrl F and put 'gas' in the search.  There is one line about it.  If you do a Google search for Gas History then there are several sites all starting with the fact that the first gas was burnt to make light in 1812!  London had it by 1815 or so.  Much, much earlier than I would have thought.

 

Page 63 and 64 of C.C. Green's Cambrian Railways Vol 2 has about the gas supply in Aberdovey.  The man who owned the gas works suggested that the new station be lit by gas, well he would, wouldn't he?

[tanatvalley]

Gas production was listed in "The Gas World Year Book". I have some data on photocopied sheets for 1933 which list the annual make in millions of cubic feet for each gas works as well as the manager. I will use Barmouth as an example, the make was 16 million cubic feet. Approx.each ton of coal produces 10,000 cubic feet, so Barmouth would need approx. 1600 tons. So 160 10 ton wagons per annum although the quiet period was between March and August. This would mean 3 to 4 wagons per week. All this assumes my calculations are correct!

[RSLR]

Don,

The link to the web site is here.  You will need to do a Ctrl F and put 'gas' in the search.  There is one line about it.  If you do a Google search for Gas History then there are several sites all starting with the fact that the first gas was burnt to make light in 1812!  London had it by 1815 or so.  Much, much earlier than I would have thought.

 

Page 63 and 64 of C.C. Green's Cambrian Railways Vol 2 has about the gas supply in Aberdovey.  The man who owned the gas works suggested that the new station be lit by gas, well he would, wouldn't he?

Pretty sure there was a job relating to the subject, a dude that used to go around lighting the street lamps at night time with a long stick. I have a feeling I read some where it was part of the porters job to light the lamps at stations... would have thought gas would only be applicable to towns etc places that have a gas works, I'm sure rural halts and stations had oil lamps until the very end.

I remember one of the teachers at school telling me that when she was a little girl the gas holder would go down in the evenings because everyone was cooking at tea time.  

 

Always reminds me of Ivor the Engine with Grumbly Gas Works  

[Simond]

I wandered out into Wikipedia where there are several articles about "coal gas", "water gas" and "town gas", but I couldn't find any numbers to confirm the figures in Tanatvalley's post above. I did note that by 1826 there were only two towns of over 10,000 inhabitants that did not have gas lighting in the UK.

 

What is rather obvious from reading a bit about our industrial heritage is the by-products from gas manufacture - coke, of course, tar, and ammonia, all of which were valuable to industries, and which presumably would have been shipped out by rail, if they were not used locally. More traffic!

 

It would be good to get some ratios between population, coal wagons in, and coke wagons, tar wagons, etc, out.

 

Interesting article - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_gas

 

Best

Simon

[Donw]

Don,

The link to the web site is here.  You will need to do a Ctrl F and put 'gas' in the search.  There is one line about it.  If you do a Google search for Gas History then there are several sites all starting with the fact that the first gas was burnt to make light in 1812!  London had it by 1815 or so.  Much, much earlier than I would have thought.

 

Page 63 and 64 of C.C. Green's Cambrian Railways Vol 2 has about the gas supply in Aberdovey.  The man who owned the gas works suggested that the new station be lit by gas, well he would, wouldn't he?

 

Thanks Chris. That is one extra traffic for Dolgelley. I assume it would be unloaded in the station yard and carted to the works.

 

Don

[Simond]

Government statistics....

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/338731/gas_since_1882.xls

 

Connects coal consumption to gas production. Not in nice easy units, like wagon loads, unfortunately

 

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

Gas production was listed in "The Gas World Year Book". I have some data on photocopied sheets for 1933 which list the annual make in millions of cubic feet for each gas works as well as the manager. I will use Barmouth as an example, the make was 16 million cubic feet. Approx.each ton of coal produces 10,000 cubic feet, so Barmouth would need approx. 1600 tons. So 160 10 ton wagons per annum although the quiet period was between March and August. This would mean 3 to 4 wagons per week. All this assumes my calculations are correct!

 

Tanatvalley,

Thank you!  That is an amazing piece of information.  It gives such a clear idea of how much traffic there would have been.  I have looked on the old map website to try and find out where the gas works were.  In the 1889 map it has the words 'Gas Works' but there is no building near the words.  It is near a siding which ends in cattle pens so I am not sure if they unloaded coal there.  The 1901 map appears to be no different but does not have these words.

 

I seemed to remember that I read somewhere that the population of Barmouth did not increase from the 1900s to 1960 so I thought that I ought to check.  Could not find that statement anywhere on the internet but it may have been in a book of course.  I did find this, it is a web site with populations etc. on it and it shows that the population of Barmouth was at its maximum in 1930 at 3500 while in 1910 and earlier it was around 2200, which is what it is today.  I would therefore assume, that the gas consumption was about two thirds of the 1930's consumption.  (I can hear sharp intakes of breath, yes I know it is a big assumption, and includes things like there are no gas fires in 1930, and that gas lighting is still in place.)  We therefore might be looking at 2 or 3 10 ton wagons a week or whatever the equivalent was for the size of wagon.

Edited April 29, 2015 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Pretty sure there was a job relating to the subject, a dude that used to go around lighting the street lamps at night time with a long stick. I have a feeling I read some where it was part of the porters job to light the lamps at stations... would have thought gas would only be applicable to towns etc places that have a gas works, I'm sure rural halts and stations had oil lamps until the very end.

I remember one of the teachers at school telling me that when she was a little girl the gas holder would go down in the evenings because everyone was cooking at tea time.  

 

Always reminds me of Ivor the Engine with Grumbly Gas Works

 

Reece,

You are right, there were men who were employed as lamp lighters and I know I have seen an old film of one, but I cannot find it at the moment; if I do I will post a link. 

 

I never thought of asking my mum about lighting as they lived at the end of a village in the 1920s but I am sure it was candles or oil lamps.

 

Oh yes Grumbly Gas Works, only one wagon of coal so we can work out how big the town was.     Big enough for a choral society though.  "It is not many choral societies have a locomotive as first base, even in Wales."

[ChrisN]

I wandered out into Wikipedia where there are several articles about "coal gas", "water gas" and "town gas", but I couldn't find any numbers to confirm the figures in Tanatvalley's post above. I did note that by 1826 there were only two towns of over 10,000 inhabitants that did not have gas lighting in the UK.

 

What is rather obvious from reading a bit about our industrial heritage is the by-products from gas manufacture - coke, of course, tar, and ammonia, all of which were valuable to industries, and which presumably would have been shipped out by rail, if they were not used locally. More traffic!

 

It would be good to get some ratios between population, coal wagons in, and coke wagons, tar wagons, etc, out.

 

Interesting article - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_gas

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

Thank you, I must spend time looking at those pages although the gas consumption one states it is from 1882 but starts at 1920.  I found a dearth of information about gas works, cannot imagine why. 

 

It is a good point about the outgoing traffic, and worth a thought of how it was packaged and moved.

[ChrisN]

Thanks Chris. That is one extra traffic for Dolgelley. I assume it would be unloaded in the station yard and carted to the works.

 

Don

 

Don,

Would it have been coal in and coke out?  If it was unloaded at the station what would it have been transported in to the works?  Then as Simon said there is the other traffic as well.

 

The Gas Works in Barmouth appears to be on the Traeth Mawr side so maybe the two towns were supplied by the one works.  I will think about that one.

[tanatvalley]

The GWR and maybe others of the 'Big Four' published 'Traffic dealt with at at stations' statistics. I know Brunel University has a such a book in its Clinker Collection. I photocopied a few pages some years ago including Barmouth. In 1933 Barmouth received 2940 tons of coal and coke that was "Charged", it forwarded 238 tons of coal and coke that was "Charged", it also had 1520 tons of coal and coke that was "Not Charged" (Forwarded and Received). The GWR in its 'Traffic dealt with at stations' statistics did not distinguish between coal and coke. I have never yet found an explanation about "Charged" and "Non Charged" . My belief is that "Charged" was coal delivered to a local merchant in his own wagons and "Non Charged" was coal sent out by a colliery and charged by the colliery or centrally to businesses (gasworks?) but this is guesswork on my part.

 

Alan

[corneliuslundie]

Presumably for Dolgelley, Barmouth and Traeth Mawr gas coal would have come from the North Wales coalfield via Llangollen. If I can find any references I will make a note of which of the collieries in that area mined gas coal.

 

I am trying to think where coke and other byproducts would have gone. Again the most likely area is North East Wales around Ruabon and Brymbo where there was a lot of heavy industry, so out the same way as the coal came in.

 

On the other hand coal for domestic purposes would have come from different mines. Not sure where but might have been either from the North Wales coalfield or from Staffordshire via Machynlleth. Any thoughts anyone?

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

The GWR and maybe others of the 'Big Four' published 'Traffic dealt with at at stations' statistics. I know Brunel University has a such a book in its Clinker Collection. I photocopied a few pages some years ago including Barmouth. In 1933 Barmouth received 2940 tons of coal and coke that was "Charged", it forwarded 238 tons of coal and coke that was "Charged", it also had 1520 tons of coal and coke that was "Not Charged" (Forwarded and Received). The GWR in its 'Traffic dealt with at stations' statistics did not distinguish between coal and coke. I have never yet found an explanation about "Charged" and "Non Charged" . My belief is that "Charged" was coal delivered to a local merchant in his own wagons and "Non Charged" was coal sent out by a colliery and charged by the colliery or centrally to businesses (gasworks?) but this is guesswork on my part.

 

Alan

 

Alan,

Thank you.  I knew Brunel had some papers from the list in WRRC but have never got there to look at them so this is useful. As I know from your figures how much went to the Gas Works I can work out what was for personal consumption, if you see what I mean, as there was no heavy industry in Barmouth.  In our house my mum would order a ton of coal in the autumn, and if it was a cold winter would order another 10 cwt in February so that gives what a house would use as a rule of thumb.  We only had one fire though, although it heated water in a tank plus, oh modern convenience, a radiators in two bedrooms.  (Toast toasted on an open fire while watching Doctor Who od Thunderbirds, magic!)

 

Would 'Charged' be coal that was carried and invoiced to whoever for the privilege, and 'Not Charged' be for loco coal, although it seems to be quite a lot for Barmouth?

[ChrisN]

Presumably for Dolgelley, Barmouth and Traeth Mawr gas coal would have come from the North Wales coalfield via Llangollen. If I can find any references I will make a note of which of the collieries in that area mined gas coal.

 

I am trying to think where coke and other byproducts would have gone. Again the most likely area is North East Wales around Ruabon and Brymbo where there was a lot of heavy industry, so out the same way as the coal came in.

 

On the other hand coal for domestic purposes would have come from different mines. Not sure where but might have been either from the North Wales coalfield or from Staffordshire via Machynlleth. Any thoughts anyone?

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I made a comment on Don's thread that Christensen & Miller Vol 2 stated that coal for local delivery was mined in Wrexham.  I omitted to put the page number in.  I will look for it again tomorrow, to see if 'local' only meant Dolgellau.  There is probably a snippet of information in one of the C.C. Green books, or in a 'New History' that will solve everything.  The problem with both books is that there is what appears to be quite random information so unless you are reading them with a view to finding out that information you probably will not retain it.

 

I assume, as I have not even looked or checked, that coke wagons in the 1890s were different from coal wagons which was the case in the 1950s and 60s.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

Fascinating and very useful. Thanks to all who have contributed their memories.

 

I have obviously been spoiled. Council houses until I was 11 and then a 1930s semi, so all mod cons for the time.

 

The only actual earth closets I remember were at a youth hostel in Brittany in the 1960s (it literally fell down the following year) and more recently newly constructed at a campsite in Kosova - actually pretty luxurious compared with the Turkish style toilets at Gjakova bus station.

 

The houses here in Newtown, mid Wales, mostly date from the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th century. The back to backs and most of the courts have gone but none of them had bathrooms originally and the only facilities were in an outhouse (probably a scullery) and at the end of the garden in the communal washhouses I have already mentioned. It is difficult now to work out what the original sculleries were like as most have been replaced by more recent extensions. The other thing is ceiling and door heights. In our house the doorways are just over 6 ft (a bit less than me!) but in the Textile museum round the corner which is in a row of old textile workers houses they are even lower and the ceilings are not high enough for me to stand up except between the beams. This is good for a model as the houses come out less dominating.

 

Our house has quarry tiles in the original back downstairs room which we think are probably original.

 

We also have a coal cellar under the front room with access from the street to tip the coal down. It was leaking like a sieve when we bought the house but now it has been dealt with the cellar is reasonably dry though much of the floor is either cobbles or bricks with coal dust ground firmly into the surface.

 

And we understand that even when they were built there was a drain running down the road under the cellars into which they drained (and from which rats could get into the cellars). Our cellar no longer has such a drain - perhaps it is where I poured some spare levelling compound. Mind you we have heard rats in the drains twice though i don't think they can get out into the house. Any scope for modelling here?

 

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

I have only just seen this post, so not sure if it was me or the Forum.  I have put my experiences of houses up so ours appear to be similar.  The information about the house you are in now is very interesting.  Barmouth was expanded after the railway arrived, and so was Traeth Mawr.  Barmouth and Towyn and Criccieth from memory seem to go for three storey houses.  I assume that when they were built it was with the idea to attract richer people to the town, and the character of Barmouth certainly changed as in 1850 or so most people spoke only Welsh and by 1900 it was much more varied with some people only speaking English.  I would assume that these houses had some sort of attached toilet even if like the house I rented it was entered from the outside.

 

I can definitely have something in the front of the house to show where the coal hole is.  I seem to remember that my house had a round metal cover, but I remember it as being a foot across, which it obviously was not.  What is the cover for yours or have you got wooden trap doors?

 

The cottage I am building at the moment is from pictures so the size should be as it is but it is something to be considered if I go freelance, or copy something I cannot size.  I have a friend who is probably 5ft 4", or maybe shorter and he tells me that there are some buildings he goes in when he goes back to Cornwall that he is almost too tall for, but thinking about it they may be Tudor ones.  However, it is a fact that with better nutrition people are growing taller, something which A C Stadden has taken into account with his figures.  I suppose I ought to ask the people I know that have welsh farmhouses what height their doors and ceilings are.

[Donw]

Lots of interesting stuff coming out.

 

The cottage we had in the Forest of Dean built in the 1850s had doorways that were mostly 70-72 inches.

 

Barmouth GAsworks had a siding to serve it it was at the north end of the station on the landward side. That would make it easier not only to supply the coal but also take away other things such as Tar. I discussed the GAsworks with Mike Lloyd but he had no information on who supplied the coal or what wagons went there.

 

www.welshcoalmines.co.uk list among others Vauxhall Colliery Ruabon producing House and Steam Coal, Ruabon Coal and Coke Co Hafod colliery producing House,Manufacturing Steam and Gas Coal. Slaters produce a Vauxhall Colliery wagon I have several to build.

Robbies Rolling Stock list both Vauxhall and Ruabon wagons.

Tower list the Dapol Ruabon wagons (I hadn't noticed that must see if any are available)

 

Where the Gas works is not directly rail served I cannot imagine that the Tar would be collected in wagons perhaps it was sent out in barrels.

 

I have not seen photos of a lot of coal being brought up the mid wales line. I presume there was a gas works at Aberystwyth that would have needed quite a bit of coal. Although some could come from the Swansea area via the old M&M line.

 

Don

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry but all the proprietary wagons are far, far too modern for Traeth Mawr - and most of the ready to run ones are just plain wrong with 10 ft wheelbase instead of 9 ft, brakes both sides and are on 17ft 6in underframes. (There are honourable exceptions as to design but not as to date.)

 

There is really not much even in kit form suitable for 1895..  Some of the Slaters kits are just about early enough but that is only any use if Gloucester sold wagons in that part of the country. Other may be able to make suggestions of suitable PO wagon kits. Coal wagons in 1895 would normally be 15ft 6in long or thereabouts, with brakes one side. In some parts of the country they had bottom or end doors if they were going to ports or industrial users with suitable facilities but most coal merchants still had 8 ton wagons with just side doors - and some were only 5-plank right up until the end of PO wagons.

 

Some gas works had their own wagons and bought coal direct but most seem to have used coal factors, in which case the coal would arrive either in the factor's wagons or those of the colliery.

 

Jonathan

 

Coke wagons - often standard coal wagons with removable coal rails. There is a details spec of such rails in Turton vol 13 which I can put on here if anyone wants it. Other wagons had fixed coke rails. The essential point was that coke was much lighter than coal so you could get more in a wagon. But for a small gasworks such as Barmouth or Traeth Mawr it might not have been worth using coke wagons for the small amount of coke shipped.

[ChrisN]

Lots of interesting stuff coming out.

 

The cottage we had in the Forest of Dean built in the 1850s had doorways that were mostly 70-72 inches.

 

Barmouth GAsworks had a siding to serve it it was at the north end of the station on the landward side. That would make it easier not only to supply the coal but also take away other things such as Tar. I discussed the GAsworks with Mike Lloyd but he had no information on who supplied the coal or what wagons went there.

 

www.welshcoalmines.co.uk list among others Vauxhall Colliery Ruabon producing House and Steam Coal, Ruabon Coal and Coke Co Hafod colliery producing House,Manufacturing Steam and Gas Coal. Slaters produce a Vauxhall Colliery wagon I have several to build.

Robbies Rolling Stock list both Vauxhall and Ruabon wagons.

Tower list the Dapol Ruabon wagons (I hadn't noticed that must see if any are available)

 

Where the Gas works is not directly rail served I cannot imagine that the Tar would be collected in wagons perhaps it was sent out in barrels.

 

I have not seen photos of a lot of coal being brought up the mid wales line. I presume there was a gas works at Aberystwyth that would have needed quite a bit of coal. Although some could come from the Swansea area via the old M&M line.

 

Don

 

Don,

What an interesting web site.  If Christiansen & Miller are right and coal came from Wrexham there was a Colliery called Plas Power run by Broughton & Plas Power Coal Co. which produced gas coal.  Unless someone has the invoices from either the Colliery or the Gas Works we will never know.

 

I saw the line to the Gas Works on a map from 'Old Maps UK' but as I said although the words 'Gas Works' were on it there did not appear to be a building to go with it.  Any gas works siding for me will be off scene but the coal trucks may go through.

 

One final comment on height.  At the Battle of Worcester in the Civil War when the Scots attacked the controlling Parliamentary forces, the Scots had a man called Big Archie Mcphail, he was 6ft 4".  Given that this was in the middle of the 17th century this is probably why he was noted along with his size.

[ChrisN]

Sorry but all the proprietary wagons are far, far too modern for Traeth Mawr - and most of the ready to run ones are just plain wrong with 10 ft wheelbase instead of 9 ft, brakes both sides and are on 17ft 6in underframes. (There are honourable exceptions as to design but not as to date.)

 

There is really not much even in kit form suitable for 1895..  Some of the Slaters kits are just about early enough but that is only any use if Gloucester sold wagons in that part of the country. Other may be able to make suggestions of suitable PO wagon kits. Coal wagons in 1895 would normally be 15ft 6in long or thereabouts, with brakes one side. In some parts of the country they had bottom or end doors if they were going to ports or industrial users with suitable facilities but most coal merchants still had 8 ton wagons with just side doors - and some were only 5-plank right up until the end of PO wagons.

 

Some gas works had their own wagons and bought coal direct but most seem to have used coal factors, in which case the coal would arrive either in the factor's wagons or those of the colliery.

 

Jonathan

 

Coke wagons - often standard coal wagons with removable coal rails. There is a details spec of such rails in Turton vol 13 which I can put on here if anyone wants it. Other wagons had fixed coke rails. The essential point was that coke was much lighter than coal so you could get more in a wagon. But for a small gasworks such as Barmouth or Traeth Mawr it might not have been worth using coke wagons for the small amount of coke shipped.

 

Jonathan,

Thank you for the information on coke wagons.  If they did not use coke rails but standard coal wagons then perhaps I will have them going in with a load and coming out with a load.  I know coke and coal look different but maybe not at 4mm scale.

 

I have looked through many sites for early wagons and as you indicate there seems to be a lack of early ones.  When I get a bit further on I will search more thoroughly.  My coal merchant has his eye on an old LB&SCR coal wagon that you pointed him to, he is just waiting for one to come up.

[Donw]

Jonathan

I had forgotten the issues with 00 rtr. The Slaters Vauxhall kit uses the 1907 Charles Roberts 7 plank wagon but as they had been building to that basic design from the early 1900s it is suitable for my use. Any one know if Ellis or Attocks axleboxes are more likely.

In 1895 I would expect more grease axleboxes some 8ton wagons probably a few dumb buffered. Naturally most will have single sided brakes. Not a difficult job.

 

POW sides list a number for Ruabon Wrexham way

 

Black Park Ruabon

W Y Graig Ruabon

Wrexham collieries

I have checked dates or details for these, some are on 5 plank wagons.

 

I know you are rather a wagon enthusiast. Personally I will accept some in suitable liveries even if all the details are not 100% With a large layout to build I may have to cut a corner or two you can always replace wagons with better ones unlike some things.

Don

[ChrisN]

Jonathan

I had forgotten the issues with 00 rtr. The Slaters Vauxhall kit uses the 1907 Charles Roberts 7 plank wagon but as they had been building to that basic design from the early 1900s it is suitable for my use. Any one know if Ellis or Attocks axleboxes are more likely.

In 1895 I would expect more grease axleboxes some 8ton wagons probably a few dumb buffered. Naturally most will have single sided brakes. Not a difficult job.

 

POW sides list a number for Ruabon Wrexham way

 

Black Park Ruabon

W Y Graig Ruabon

Wrexham collieries

I have checked dates or details for these, some are on 5 plank wagons.

 

I know you are rather a wagon enthusiast. Personally I will accept some in suitable liveries even if all the details are not 100% With a large layout to build I may have to cut a corner or two you can always replace wagons with better ones unlike some things.

Don

 

Don,

Thank you for the list of sides, I must view their listings.  As for axleboxes, Quarryscapes of this parish is in the process of producing some Cambrian ones to sell on Shapeways.  He is also doing an underframe fret.  I will need to make a list of what I need and then go from there.

[Trains&armour]

Hi Chris

 

On the off chance you haven't yet heard of this publication:

 

 

Lots of information on wagons, colours, lettering, dimensions, dates, loads etcetera.

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris

 

On the off chance you haven't yet heard of this publication:

 

Scan-cambrian.jpg

 

Lots of information on wagons, colours, lettering, dimensions, dates, loads etcetera.

 

Thanks Sierd,

I know it exists and watched a copy on eBay but I have not actively sought one as funds are going elsewhere at the moment.  However, Christmas is only just under 8 months away.