Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[Simond]

This is almost certainly a dumb suggestion, but some wine bottles come with a cage or net of very fine brass or brass-effect wire over the cap - could that be useful, and enjoyable, for those very fine details? Not having a micrometer screw gauge to hand, as one doesn't these days (just like you rarely find motorists with a set of feeler gauges around their person, spark plugs for the setting of) I don't know the diameter but I reckon could be 0.1-0.2mm?

It's about 0.24 diameter, it is rather soft for our purposes (but gets thinner and work-hardens if stretched to straighten it) and you gets lots on every bottle...

 

Hth

Simon

[ChrisN]

I have been away over the weekend, so have not been on the forum much, so if I have not caught up with your thread/blog I apologise- I will get there eventually.  I have however managed to do some modelling before and after being away.  First up, I have finished the framing on the sides of the brake third, plus put the door panels in.

 

 

I have yet to take it off the glass, separate the two sides, see how much they distort and add backing plasticard to them.  They would not let me do it until they had had their picture taken, which I did earlier today, so maybe tonight.........

 

Time for coffee

 

 

When I did the first class coach I shaped ends for the roof with an old CD so I found one to do the shape of these ends.  Having marked out all four I checked the CD against the pieces of a coach that Andy G has kindly cut for me on his Silhouette cutter.  (This will come later, and I will give a blow by blow account but only after I have finished gluing the sides together.)  I found that the CD profile was too shallow and it was much more like, although not exactly, the shape of the lids of this coffee.  This has several advantages, well one really.  If I shape the roof to the coffee lid then I can use the jar to shape the roof.  The lids of these jars have multiple uses, one holds my Plastic Weld to stop it falling over, and others have bits stored in them, others just hang around looking useful waiting for something to do.  So I marked the roofs using the lid.

 

 

I scored down the sides but realised that there was no way I could score around the roofs and do it to the line.  (I cannot do it on the straight so I was on a hiding to nothing for the curve.)  I cut it straight across the top and then cut off the corners until it looked almost the right shaped and then filed it.  I then scored the planking with the back of a Stanley knife.  As I sit here now I wonder why I did not score it first before cutting as then all the planks on the ends would have been the same, all wrong, but at least the same.

 

 

Here are two ends scored.  You can see the markings of the CD and the coffee jar lid.  The ends are numbered so I could make two pairs that have the same profile exactly.  The profile is not perfect but it is the same for each pair.

 

While I was waiting to do the photo shoot, and for my brass wire I have had a go at the chassis.  (The brass wire I ordered today, quick off the mark as usual.  I went into a model shop near where I work to buy some brass rod and they had lots- "You will be lucky to get it smaller than 0.5mm" the man said.  Just bought online, 0.3 and 0.4mm.)

 

 

I have decided to use the chassis from a Ratio four wheel coach.  I have cut out a base and cut the chassis to fit, and drilled holes to fit it in.  I will put top hat bearings in, but not glue them on until I have built up the sides.  Any other thoughts on doing the chassis are welcomed, or all my coaches will be the same.  (Yes I know they are GWR with the wrong axle boxes.)

 

Last but not least, I received this yesterday.

 

 

 

This is a 3D print of a 4 wheel MSLR coach.  The print is from Shapeways, they had a free postage offer when I ordered, and has been designed and sold by Bedders, of this parish.  The detail is there but will probably need a grey undercoat to show it up.  I have one 6 wheel MSLR coach already cut and am working, very slowly, on another but I thought why not have one already half built.  It is the same length as two of the Ratio coaches so could use the Ratio chassis.  Again, any thoughts welcome.

 

I think that is it for now, if you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited August 31, 2016 by ChrisN

[aberdare]

Hi Chris

 

Long time no see. It's good to see you progressing with some coach building and I look forward to seeing the finished results, it's certainly looking good so far and it is definitely one of those things you can't rush. 

It must be great minds think alike though as I have been moving on with my coach build and maybe just a bit in front of you because mine has paint on.

 

Keep up the inspirational work and I must spend a little time later catching up with the good folk of Traeth Mawr.

 

Jim

[Mikkel]

Hi Chris, good to see progress on your coaches. The first time I have seen organic coffee employed in coach building 

 

The Shapeways print is also exciting. For those of us who haven't held a print in our hands yet it can be difficult to judge how much of a problem the rough surface issue is (before and after smoothing), so will be following this with interest. 

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris, good to see progress on your coaches. The first time I have seen organic coffee employed in coach building 

 

The Shapeways print is also exciting. For those of us who haven't held a print in our hands yet it can be difficult to judge how much of a problem the rough surface issue is (before and after smoothing), so will be following this with interest. 

Mikkel,

The coffee is Fairtrade as well!

 

The coach is a finer, and therefore more expensive material than the loco I bought and I am not sure I would like to, or need to smooth it with abrasive.  I keep feeling sharp bits but when I look under my magnifying glass they are hinges.  I really need to get some primer on it but am busy making handles out of brass at the moment.

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris

 

Long time no see. It's good to see you progressing with some coach building and I look forward to seeing the finished results, it's certainly looking good so far and it is definitely one of those things you can't rush. 

It must be great minds think alike though as I have been moving on with my coach build and maybe just a bit in front of you because mine has paint on.

 

Keep up the inspirational work and I must spend a little time later catching up with the good folk of Traeth Mawr.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

Thank you.  I am pleased that I inspire you although I am not sure I will ever reach your standards.  I feel I have got nowhere fast but I hope you enjoy the catch up.

[ChrisN]

This week I have been trying to make door handles out of 0.3mm bass wire.  They need to be 2- 3mm long with a prong into the door of maybe the same length.  I thought I could bend it to shape, and I still might try that but the way I did it at first was, lets just say, not very good.  Then I made little T sections using superglue to keep the parts together.  The man who supports his weight on the superglue advert is probably a little fanciful going by my experience with the T joins.  They fell apart when I touched them.  So all that was left was to solder them.  That is correct, I was going to solder them.  The idea was to tin some wire, cut some off, Flux the end of a long piece so I could hold it, put it and the iron next to the already tinned fragment and hey presto the solder would run onto the long bit and so there would be a join.  Did not quite happen like that and I had to tin both parts, which is a pain as the idea of brass was so that it could look like brass, but in the end I was nearly fairly good at it.  The material I bought to solder on, the name of which escapes me, is hardly damaged at all considering one piece had to sit on it while the iron was near it, and only once did I put the iron in the flux not the brush.  Those of you who are experienced solderers are probably either laughing or crying but I am willing to hear how I might do it better.  Here is a picture of what I achieved when they were sitting in a one portion jam jar waiting to be cleaned.  (I cleaned everything I had used to remove the flux.)

 

 

After I had cleaned them I showed my wife who could not see them without her glasses.  I should have put a finger or a 5p piece in there for size but the squares are an inch, or if you are reading this in Europe, 25mm.

 

After I had washed them I dried them.

 

 

There are 27 in the picture.  I counted 24 into the jar again.  This means that either I a) miscounted or b) I have lost some.  I thought 2 had fallen apart as I put them in but there are the parts of one in the picture.  I only need 20 for this build so I will take the best 20 or any that stay together.  Grab handles next which I have started on but felt the door handles should go in first.

(Just a note.  I model downstairs on the dining room table opposite where my wife sits as she works on her laptop, but I thought it diplomatic to do this while she was out.)

 

Now I have learn that texts, email and thread posts are usually better for only having one subject as however many sections there are only the first or last gets answered and the other gets ignored, but here goes.  I went outside today, as it was a nice sunny day, and took with me some sitting figures, plus  the 3D printed loco shown previously plus the MSLR coach.  The figures I sprayed with grey Halfords primer and was going to spray the prints with Halfords plastic primer.  However, as I started I wondered why it was not changing colour and realised it was white, not grey.  (I am sure it was grey last year!)  As the whole point, or one of the points of priming it was to show up detail I then sprayed with the ordinary primer.  So here is the coach.

 

 

 

You can now see the detail which is good.  You can also see the printing marks, which not so good.  The inside of this side is flatter, whereas on the other side the inside is like this and the outside if flatter.  The ends are similar.  They do not feel too rough but obviously they do show, even when they are not magnified as they are here.  I am not sure how I should deal with it as it needs to be rubbed down without taking the detail out.  Thoughts appreciated.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited September 10, 2016 by ChrisN

[Simond]

Chris

 

Thoughts, hopefully helpful...

 

I think it's unlikely that the superglue would work, so the T handles are likely to need to be soldered. You will need the faintest touch, with a water-based flux, and you might, just, be able to keep the brass looking like brass - I doubt you will effectively clean 0.3mm wire, but it might be worth a try... Stick some very fine grit (2000?) wet&dry to a bit of MDF, and rub. Very gently...

 

The coach - the fine texture - I'd be optimistic that when you've painted it with something a little glossy, it'll disappear. Of course, if it doesn't, your options are going to be rather more limited.

 

Best

Simon

[Mikkel]

Hello Chris, and thanks for a very entertaining read. I laughed out loud - not at the modelling but at your humour between the lines.

 

I can't imagine how you managed to do those door handles, it must have been very fiddly indeed.

 

Regarding the printing marks, I'm not sure what material it is and I know little about it. At the irsk of having misunderstood entirely what kind of a print you have, here are some links I have saved for myself: 

 

Here is a thread (and video at the end) on cleaning WSF: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112407-wsf-post-printing-advice/

 

...and here is a video on cleaning up FUD. The actual process begins at 3.30, and at around 8:10 he then begins a laborious job of filing down the material: 

[ChrisN]

Chris

 

Thoughts, hopefully helpful...

 

I think it's unlikely that the superglue would work, so the T handles are likely to need to be soldered. You will need the faintest touch, with a water-based flux, and you might, just, be able to keep the brass looking like brass - I doubt you will effectively clean 0.3mm wire, but it might be worth a try... Stick some very fine grit (2000?) wet&dry to a bit of MDF, and rub. Very gently...

 

The coach - the fine texture - I'd be optimistic that when you've painted it with something a little glossy, it'll disappear. Of course, if it doesn't, your options are going to be rather more limited.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

Thank you.  I think I used a water based flux but I was not convinced that I could hold wire, solder, iron and a tiny piece of wire so and get the solder on in a small dob so there is quite a bit of solder on them.  Thinking about it now, isn't hindsight wonderful, I could have used two long bits and then cut them once soldered although this may have only been slightly easier.  I may try the wet and dry.

[ChrisN]

Hello Chris, and thanks for a very entertaining read. I laughed out loud - not at the modelling but at your humour between the lines.

 

I can't imagine how you managed to do those door handles, it must have been very fiddly indeed.

 

Regarding the printing marks, I'm not sure what material it is and I know little about it. At the irsk of having misunderstood entirely what kind of a print you have, here are some links I have saved for myself: 

 

Here is a thread (and video at the end) on cleaning WSF: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112407-wsf-post-printing-advice/

 

...and here is a video on cleaning up FUD. The actual process begins at 3.30, and at around 8:10 he then begins a laborious job of filing down the material: 

 

Mikkel,

Thank you.  I am glad that you laughed.  It was indeed very fiddly and I wanted to convey that in a humorous way, as I thought I was fairly daft to attempt it in the first place.  (You can buy door handles, but the wrong company!  Now I have door hands that look like none that ever existed.   )

 

I have seen the SCC videos, or to be more precise I have watched the first one and was going to watch them through as I built my loco which is from SCC, so I have not seen this or knew it went on to talk about FUD which is what this coach is so thank you for flagging it up.  I will watch it with interest.  What I am thinking of at the moment is perhaps a small stick, maybe 2 x 2mm, and even this will be too big  for the panels above the windows and glue some of the fine wet and dry to it and rub very, very gently.

 

On a more positive note I sprayed 23 sitting people yesterday, Langleys and Stadden, plus I have some Aiden Campbell so it appears that the Cambrian will not be going bust due to lack of passengers, although the Twill Ddu will be a bit cross as some were destined to be in their workman's train.

 

Thank you for the tip about the Stadden's with moveable arms.  I regularly check his web site but had missed his link to his blog.  I will need some more sitting figures as well from him although I have a thing about repeating figures, but there are quite a number, Langleys, Stadden, Aiden Campbell and Preiser so being painted differently and inside coaches, even with removable roofs, it should be alright.  Now should I make them removable for when the coaches are in the sidings or is that a step too far? 

[ChrisN]

The other question about the MSLR coach is the chassis.  On most coaches the floor is above the level of the sides but you cannot do it with this one as the compartments go all the way to the bottom.  So I was proposing that I make the base/floor out of 10 thou plasticard which in other circumstances would be too thin, but given the number of compartments, which would strengthen it, plus seats, and maybe inserts of 10 thou inside the compartments I think it will work.

 

As I have said previously Ratio 4 wheel chassis will fit, (the all third and composite), and although they are GWR a little bit of filing the axle boxes will make them passable.

 

Any thoughts welcome.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[aberdare]

Simon,

Thank you.  I think I used a water based flux but I was not convinced that I could hold wire, solder, iron and a tiny piece of wire so and get the solder on in a small dob so there is quite a bit of solder on them.  Thinking about it now, isn't hindsight wonderful, I could have used two long bits and then cut them once soldered although this may have only been slightly easier.  I may try the wet and dry.

 

Hi Chris

 

When I saw your post this morning that was exactly my thought but I didn't have time to reply then, I also solder them on a bit of aluminum angle to hold one of the pieces still and then use a very fine point soldering bit.

 

All looking good so far and I shall eagerly await the next step, in your own time of course'

 

I like the comment about your wife though as it reminds me of mine who often says "Who's going to notice a tiny thing like that, I wouldn't bother".

 

 

Jim

[Simond]

I had to read the bit about soldering them on a piece of aluminium angle twice...

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris

 

When I saw your post this morning that was exactly my thought but I didn't have time to reply then, I also solder them on a bit of aluminum angle to hold one of the pieces still and then use a very fine point soldering bit.

 

All looking good so far and I shall eagerly await the next step, in your own time of course'

 

I like the comment about your wife though as it reminds me of mine who often says "Who's going to notice a tiny thing like that, I wouldn't bother".

 

 

Jim

 

Jim,

Angle iron, how clever, I should have thought of that.  I have some so next time I will use it.

[Quarryscapes]

 

 

Primed side.JPG

 

Primed end.JPG

 

You can now see the detail which is good.  You can also see the printing marks, which not so good.  The inside of this side is flatter, whereas on the other side the inside is like this and the outside if flatter.  The ends are similar.  They do not feel too rough but obviously they do show, even when they are not magnified as they are here.  I am not sure how I should deal with it as it needs to be rubbed down without taking the detail out.  Thoughts appreciated.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Now you see why I stopped doing the 3D printed coach bodies! What I have thought of though is a one piece 3D printed body with interior with smooth outsides onto which you could glue an etched side overlay for the panelling. It could have slots for glazing. 

[Edwardian]

Now you see why I stopped doing the 3D printed coach bodies! What I have thought of though is a one piece 3D printed body with interior with smooth outsides onto which you could glue an etched side overlay for the panelling. It could have slots for glazing. 

 

I agree.  I think 3D print could be great for hard to make/obtain stuff like pre-Grouping company coach and wagon fittings.  Coaches would benefit from printed roof fittings, buffer shanks, bogies and axle-box-spring assemblies.  Smooth sides of coaches that require rubbing down at the risk of fine detail are not the best uses of this material, IMHO.

 

One glaring market gap is an available range of pre-Grouping roof profiles, particularly trickier ones like semi-elliptical. A number of companies had distinctive roof profiles. Could this be a great use of 3D print? 

[ChrisN]

Now you see why I stopped doing the 3D printed coach bodies! What I have thought of though is a one piece 3D printed body with interior with smooth outsides onto which you could glue an etched side overlay for the panelling. It could have slots for glazing. 

 

That sounds like a good idea.  I will have to see how I progress with this one. 

[Simond]

In the Jenkinson Coach-Building book, he proposes profile-milled wooden roofs for his plasticard coach bodies - I managed to obtain some, quite a few years ago, for my Blacksmiths etched brass 0 gauge Toplights, but I do not believe they are still available. IIRC, it was a chap in Rhyl, or Colwyn Bay, who produced them. The roof profiles were made to fit within the edges of the coach body, and they are covered with cartridge paper, which provides the smooth top, visible surface.

 

If the 3D print is only providing the shape, but not the surface, I can imagine it working well, but, I can also imagine it being a tad pricy, particularly in 7mm.

 

On a related, but different thread, I saw a coach roof made from many layers of laser cut MDF, a bit like a sliced loaf, at Telford. Again, paper overlay to provide the smooth visible surface.

 

Food for thought.

Best

Simon

[uax6]

I use a bit of 2" steam pipe and styrene sheet to make my roofs. Most pre-grouping ones are arc profile, so this works well. Cove profiles (ie LNWR cove ones) are essentially arc form with a tight upstand at the edges, so I use and arc roof and then rase it on a sheet of 10 or 20thou and files to edge where they both meet.

Not tried elliptical one yet, I don't need any....

 

Anyway its almost rayburn season again, so more roofs will be made...

 

Andy G

Edited September 13, 2016 by uax6

[ChrisN]

In the Jenkinson Coach-Building book, he proposes profile-milled wooden roofs for his plasticard coach bodies - I managed to obtain some, quite a few years ago, for my Blacksmiths etched brass 0 gauge Toplights, but I do not believe they are still available. IIRC, it was a chap in Rhyl, or Colwyn Bay, who produced them. The roof profiles were made to fit within the edges of the coach body, and they are covered with cartridge paper, which provides the smooth top, visible surface.

 

If the 3D print is only providing the shape, but not the surface, I can imagine it working well, but, I can also imagine it being a tad pricy, particularly in 7mm.

 

On a related, but different thread, I saw a coach roof made from many layers of laser cut MDF, a bit like a sliced loaf, at Telford. Again, paper overlay to provide the smooth visible surface.

 

Food for thought.

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

I have the book but not had chance to read it yet.  It is a thought about covering prints with paper.  There is a thread, (and a book), about painting and lining using paper so in the right circumstancesthat would be quite interesting.  I agree though in 7mm it would be pricey.

[ChrisN]

I use a bit of 2" steam pipe and styrene sheet to make my roofs. Most pre-grouping ones are arc profile, so this works well. Cove profiles (ie LNWR cove ones) are essentially arc form with a tight upstand at the edges, so I use and arc roof and then rase it on a sheet of 10 or 20thou and files to edge where they both meet.

Not tried elliptical one yet, I don't need any....

 

Anyway its almost rayburn season again, so more roofs will be made...

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

My first thought was '2" is quite a small radius'.  I then measured my coffee pot and found it was 2¹/₂" so actually not much different.  We do not even have a chimney in our house so a 2" steam pipe from a Rayburn is just a dream.

[MikeOxon]

I use a bit of 2" steam pipe and styrene sheet to make my roofs. Most pre-grouping ones are arc profile, so this works well. Cove profiles (ie LNWR cove ones) are essentially arc form with a tight upstand at the edges, so I use and arc roof and then rase it on a sheet of 10 or 20thou and files to edge where they both meet.

Not tried elliptical one yet, I don't need any....

 

Anyway its almost rayburn season again, so more roofs will be made...

 

Andy G

Combining this with other ideas that have been mentioned - you could make a former by hand-shaping some brass sheet to the required profile.  Then strap styrene to the template and dunk in boiling water, or attach the assembly to the side of a coffee jug - a bit of thermal paste might help.

Edited September 14, 2016 by MikeOxon

[Penlan]

I'm sure somewhere in these nearly 100 pages of this topic, I've mentioned that......

Long ago the LSWR Circle use to sell pre-formed plastikard arc roofs to various radii, the person who did it for the circle had a number of formers made from wood and use to place the plastkard on the formers and place in a (electric?) oven at a gentle heat.

Unfortunately the stock I had ran out years ago, but they were stable and still are.

Otherwise, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a stack (OK, only about 10 left now) of Ratio LNWR arc roofs* in stock, you could at one time buy them as separate items from Ratio at shows.  The most useful one was for the centre brake coach as there is no gas lamp recess halfway along the roof.  I use them for 42' and shorter coaches.

 

* Unfortunately these are just slightly narrow, even for the Ratio LNWR 50' stock they are intended for, they need a 10 thou strip added as guttering each side, to look a more sensible width for the kits.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

To change the subject from roofs (something I admit I don't excel at), this is addressed mainly at Chris, but answers will be welocme from anyone.

I need a Cambrian style water tower for Sarn. Great Western Way says that the branch termini had timber ones on timber frames - as in fact did Kerry. However, I need mine to have a solid base to cover some out of scale point rodding. I have ben pointed to that at Barmouth as a possible prototype. Do you have any information about it please?

Jonathan