Traeth Mawr -Painting Season, (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Couple of interesting thoughts on the signalling. Knowing nothing about the Cambrian I'm going to have to ask some daft question in this reply! What I'm about to say is written with regard to conversations that I have had with a fellow signaller about his GNoSR layout, which is very similar to the above plan, but without the siding on the LHS.

Presumptions:

The timetable is sparse

The single line sections are long

The is a no rush mentality

The two sidings heading left are shunted by Ex Pwllheli trains, those on the right by ex Barmouth ones.

 

Dealing with the goods first.

The train gets the staff/token for the section from the Pwllheli end box and trundles to TM at a sedate pace. When it arrives it pulls up on the single line at the toe of the point on the LHS. (Running signal OFF) The wagons for the LHS siding are at the head of the train, so uncouple behind them and draw them into the station (leaving the remains of the train on the running line.) Token NOT surrended (thus protecting train outside home board). After wagon drawn forward Home board ON (to release the interlocking to allow the siding point to be swung). When Shunting complete, train is recoupled, and then either Home board OFF or drawn forward with a flag. When train inside the Home board, token surrended and put back into the machine.

 

Passenger

I would have thought that they will run into the correct platforms, the rule on the railway being that the more moves you make, the more chance there is that something will fail/break or fall off. Also don't forget that signalling was expensive (even more so these days!), so most places had few signals. But also, much more use was made of moves being signalled with flags. (My friend has made Bobbies that pivot on a bar and so stick their arms out the box windows with a flag on them to authorise such movements.)

 

As for signals, I wonder if the brackets would exist, and they would be single signals just for the straight ahead (platform lines) only. Mind you I know b*gger all about Cambrian signalling!

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

I need again to go back and look at period pictures.  The only one I actually remember is on a halt where on one post are two signals, one facing each way.  They are both OFF.  Any passenger wanting to board a train had to put the relevant signal ON to stop the train they require.

 

Goods trains

I think it would be quiet easy for a goods train to shunt either siding, and although we both know, and so does the driver and the guard that the relevant wagons should be at the front or the back, when the train arrives they are it positions, 1, 3,5,6 out f seven.  I also think they would be behind a home signal for protection.  There is a famous Cambrian accident where the Station Master insisted on unloading horses on the wrong sided platform as it was easier and did not move the horse box even when told that the next passenger train had left the previous stop.  Even though the signal was against him the driver, who was known for his reckless driving, failed to stop as it was foggy and he did not see it.  I think lessons would have been learned. 

 

To complicate things there were still two trains a day in 1895 that had coaches tacked on the end, and they had to be put in a safe siding before shunting began.  Yes, and I am talking about coaches on the end of and unfitted pick up goods.

 

Passenger trains

I took Jonathan's point about passenger trains needing proper signals not hand signals which is why I put the brackets on.  I will need a bracket signal for the starters for the bay and the Up line.  If there were ground signals then I would use those, but they had these point indicators.  I am struggling to find a picture that is not copyright as I know you will not have the books but they are like the one of the right of the two on this page.  I could always use flags, as it would be easier, and cheaper, but whichever way I look at it without a lot of shunting I am going to end up with a Down train in the Up platform.

[corneliuslundie]

There was indeed a raised point indicator at Kerry like that shown in your link, illustrated in the Oakwood Press book. I intend building a model for Sarn.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Just had a quick look through Cambrian Album 1 and as I thought the bracket with a shunting signal is there for much the same situation.  Comments still welcome though.

Edited July 12, 2016 by ChrisN

[Quarryscapes]

Yes, as a joint venture with the WRRC.

The third supplier I am thinking of is Furness Wagons which I believe intends/intended to produce Cambrian transfers in 7mm - though that may be out of date.

I am not sure whether Chris Basten is still producing transfers. He was running down his stock.

Jonathan

 

You forgot mine, which I believe are, at the moment anyway, the only ones you can actually buy.  

[Simond]

Chris Basten (Dragon models) had some transfers at Reading last year, not many IIRC.

 

Best

Simon

[ChrisN]

I have had a brief look at C.C. Green Vol 1 and there are a profusion of shunting signals, which is what I had thought.  I need to check the dates of the photographs but given that 1895 was at a time of general safety improvements on the railways I would be surprised if they were not established by then.

 

 

 

Here is my final diagram although the actual shapes of the signals I will need to look at against a plethora of actual signals.  The two on the right are advanced home and advanced starter signals.  I have removed the shunting arm as no passengers will be taken down that siding and of course off scene is the exchange siding for the narrow gauge exchange siding.  They will probably be off scene, but are there to protect the shunting and save waking up the signalman in the next box, or get him back from his fishing.

 

The next signal is the home for the down platform and two shunting signals, one for the Up platform and one for the bay.  The third should be on the end of the platform between the Bay and the Up platform and are the starters.  I have put no shunting signals here as I think I will not need to have coaches with passengers going that way and all shunts will be hand signalled.

 

The fourth one is the Down starter, with the shunt signals for both the Up and the Down Platform.  The next is the Up home with shunting signals for both Up and Down Roads.  Finally the two on the left mirror the two on the right.  They may or may not be modelled.

 

There we have it.  I have been 'checking things out' to see that it works and all is ok.  Comments, thoughts always welcome.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[ChrisN]

I have done some modelling, but not a lot, adding ventilators to the one coach and a couple of frames to the second, but have not managed to take any photos so I will post the progress once I have a few which will be a while now, life is getting busy.

 

However, I saw one of these on Blue Lightening's thread a while ago. 

 

 

Aggh, I hear you say, its Southern!

 

 

Well, I think it is about the right era and it found its way into Wales full of stuff before it went back with jars of pickled herrings.  It is made by Dapol and is from Simply Southern who also do a number of PO wagons as well.  Although they assured me the PO wagons could be for 1895 and got all over the place I had heard/ read somewhere that Dapol wagons, along with some other R-T-R wagons had the right liveries for pre-grouping but were completely the wrong design, so I decided to give them a miss.

 

Following on from discussions on Edwardian's Castle Aching thread I will have to think about my wagons and how to back date them.  At present I have 15 wagons of various sorts, all R-T-R and only the above of the right time period.  It is very obvious from the short number of running sessions I have done that 15 is hardly enough to make up two trains let alone the four for one day, and for consecutive days nowhere near enough.  I have a number of kits to make but these will only add a few.  Still, this is a while off as I want to concentrate on coaches at least until I have a fair number.

 

The exception might be to make some brake vans, but that is a discussion for another day.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[BlueLightning]

Who needs an excuse to run a nice van, eh Chris?

 

Looking forward to seeing the work you've done on your coach.

 

Gary

[Northroader]

The only thing really is losing the ventilators on the end, and it would fit in quite nicely.

[Edwardian]

I have done some modelling, but not a lot, adding ventilators to the one coach and a couple of frames to the second, but have not managed to take any photos so I will post the progress once I have a few which will be a while now, life is getting busy.

 

However, I saw one of these on Blue Lightening's thread a while ago. 

 

LBSC 2.JPG

 

Aggh, I hear you say, its Southern!

 

LBSC 1.JPG

 

Well, I think it is about the right era and it found its way into Wales full of stuff before it went back with jars of pickled herrings.  It is made by Dapol and is from Simply Southern who also do a number of PO wagons as well.  Although they assured me the PO wagons could be for 1895 and got all over the place I had heard/ read somewhere that Dapol wagons, along with some other R-T-R wagons had the right liveries for pre-grouping but were completely the wrong design, so I decided to give them a miss.

 

Following on from discussions on Edwardian's Castle Aching thread I will have to think about my wagons and how to back date them.  At present I have 15 wagons of various sorts, all R-T-R and only the above of the right time period.  It is very obvious from the short number of running sessions I have done that 15 is hardly enough to make up two trains let alone the four for one day, and for consecutive days nowhere near enough.  I have a number of kits to make but these will only add a few.  Still, this is a while off as I want to concentrate on coaches at least until I have a fair number.

 

The exception might be to make some brake vans, but that is a discussion for another day.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Well Chris, if you can find a second-hand Coopercraft GW O5 4-plank, you can easily back-date this to an un-diagrammed open from the 1880s.  The main change would be to replace the brake lever with a conventional one.  Since most wagons at your period (1895) would have brakes on one side only, any other wagon kit is likely to yield a spare brake lever. 

 

And wouldn't it be splendid to have the odd GW red wagon along with those light grey Cambrian?

[ChrisN]

The only thing really is losing the ventilators on the end, and it would fit in quite nicely.

 

Are you saying that the van in 1895 would not have had ventilators?

[ChrisN]

Well Chris, if you can find a second-hand Coopercraft GW O5 4-plank, you can easily back-date this to an un-diagrammed open from the 1880s.  The main change would be to replace the brake lever with a conventional one.  Since most wagons at your period (1895) would have brakes on one side only, any other wagon kit is likely to yield a spare brake lever. 

 

And wouldn't it be splendid to have the odd GW red wagon along with those light grey Cambrian?

 

Thank you.  I have a couple of ABS GWR Minks which are the right time frame.  I have seen and not bought or bid on as they are too late for me but now I know I can back date them then I will probably need at least a couple as the Cambrian had an end on junction with the GWR at Dolgelley and I would think GWR wagons would be seen quite often.

 

I have looked at wagons, and even started a few but the real push  to research and build will be after I have got as far as I can with all the coaches that I have up and running, not finished completely as I never do that but at least so they can be dragged behind an engine.

[Alister_G]

Hi Chris,

 

I haven't looked in on your thread for a while, so I've just been catching up.

 

Really like the look of your coach build, now i have a cutter it's something I may try myself in the future.

 

Great work!

 

Al.

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

 

I haven't looked in on your thread for a while, so I've just been catching up.

 

Really like the look of your coach build, now i have a cutter it's something I may try myself in the future.

 

Great work!

 

Al.

 

Al,

Thank you.  These particular type of coaches I felt were better made by hand.  The framing is 1mm thick and that would be 4 x 10 thou.  It should look a chunky coach and seemed quite straightforward.  In fact it is not too bad and as I expected the framing covers up any bad cutting out of the windows, which to my mind is fairly poor- it becomes obvious as you put the framing in.  The final effect will be, I think alright.

 

However, for other coaches a Silhouette will be invaluable.  I have followed Jason's and Andy G's threads on their coach building, I believe there are others.  I have the use of a cutter; Andy G says he will cut files I have made.  The important thing is to have a good drawing to work from.  The one I have already drawn from was fine but had its quirks.  The next one I am looking at has a drawing that appears fine until you try and use it, the windows all appear to be a different size, as are the panels.  Whatever you do you need to be patient and fairly pedantic as to what it finally looks like.  When it has been cut I will build and afterwards put up n the thread.  The advantage of a cutter of course is that you can make prototypes that are not otherwise available.

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but the LBSC lettering on Brighton wagons was brought in in 1910 or thereabouts. Before that it was LBSCR (Southern Style Part 2 page 60). But that style of van roof came from the SECR, not the Brighton, the first to diagram 1426 (SR designation) apparently being built from 1915 if I read the table on page 87 of An illustrated history of Southern wagons. Volume three: SECR (Bixley et al) correctly. So it is also too modern for your layout (and mine).

Jonathan

[Northroader]

Sorry for slow reply, I was off child caring. Looking at the van, the most obvious anachronism that you see are the large sheet metal vent hoods on the ends. This is the SR version, drawing off the SECR van, the rest of the big four usually went for a single central hood. Pregroup lines did have ventilated vans, more as a specialist item, and the arrangements were usually less prominent, lower hoods or flush louvres. Really it's how far you want to go, change the upper half of the ends to plain sheeting, redo the roof profile to a single radius from elliptical, trim off the diagonal braces on the side, reletter as in the previous post. This would bring it to an approximation of what you want?

[Penlan]

Probably old news, I've missed it etc., but I see the latest 'Back Track' has an article on the Sharp Stewart Cambrian Loco's.

[Donw]

Probably old news, I've missed it etc., but I see the latest 'Back Track' has an article on the Sharp Stewart Cambrian Loco's.

 

Useful info to me except we have no newsagent round here. Is the article any good? I do have the Model Railways Illustrated issue with Mike Lloyds article on the 0-6-0 Sharpies and Drawing.

Don

[Penlan]

Useful info to me except we have no newsagent round here. Is the article any good?

I didn't buy it, just glanced at a copy in Smith's.

The worth of the contents is in the eye of the reader...

[ChrisN]

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but the LBSC lettering on Brighton wagons was brought in in 1910 or thereabouts. Before that it was LBSCR (Southern Style Part 2 page 60). But that style of van roof came from the SECR, not the Brighton, the first to diagram 1426 (SR designation) apparently being built from 1915 if I read the table on page 87 of An illustrated history of Southern wagons. Volume three: SECR (Bixley et al) correctly. So it is also too modern for your layout (and mine).

Jonathan

 

 

Sorry for slow reply, I was off child caring. Looking at the van, the most obvious anachronism that you see are the large sheet metal vent hoods on the ends. This is the SR version, drawing off the SECR van, the rest of the big four usually went for a single central hood. Pregroup lines did have ventilated vans, more as a specialist item, and the arrangements were usually less prominent, lower hoods or flush louvres. Really it's how far you want to go, change the upper half of the ends to plain sheeting, redo the roof profile to a single radius from elliptical, trim off the diagonal braces on the side, reletter as in the previous post. This would bring it to an approximation of what you want?

 

Thank you both.  I am sorry for my even slower reply but I have been away and had no internet access.  I did think it was too good to be true to have an R-T-R van that ran in 1895 even though the company assured me that they did.  I did not buy any PO wagons as I had read that although sold as pre 1923 they were in fact post 1923 RCH diagrams.  I will run it when no cameras are around and it will be replaced with all my other stock as I make my fleet of wagons, which is just a little way off yet.

[ChrisN]

Probably old news, I've missed it etc., but I see the latest 'Back Track' has an article on the Sharp Stewart Cambrian Loco's.

 

Penlan,

Thank you.  I am not sure that I knew that so I will look for it when I go shopping later today.

[NCB]

Good article in Back Track. Gives the overall history and details such as withdrawal dates for each engine. This is just part one, covering engines ordered up to 1863.

[ChrisN]

Good article in Back Track. Gives the overall history and details such as withdrawal dates for each engine. This is just part one, covering engines ordered up to 1863.

 

Thanks, I have found a copy and it seems well written and interesting.  It stated that the numbers of one locomotive were 19 and 19A.  The A suffix was when the locomotive was put on the reserve list but it did not show this for any of the Volunteer class which 'Absorbed Engines of the GWR' says were put on the reserve list before being finally withdrawn.  Do we know which is right?  It is not too serious a point as it only means if I do make a scratch built/ modified loco of a Volunteer I will not know whether to put an 'A' after the number.

 

On another note I saw this NB wagon on another thread.  I had hoped that Oxford Diecast would put some information about their wagons but it seems that only locos are exciting enough to get explanations so I have no idea what it is meant to model.  I am assuming the chassis is probably wrong but does it try and portray a late Victorian wagon?

 

Modelling updates will be resumed as soon as possible.  (When I have had time to do some!)

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Quarryscapes]

Thanks, I have found a copy and it seems well written and interesting.  It stated that the numbers of one locomotive were 19 and 19A.  The A suffix was when the locomotive was put on the reserve list but it did not show this for any of the Volunteer class which 'Absorbed Engines of the GWR' says were put on the reserve list before being finally withdrawn.  Do we know which is right?  It is not too serious a point as it only means if I do make a scratch built/ modified loco of a Volunteer I will not know whether to put an 'A' after the number.

 

On another note I saw this NB wagon on another thread.  I had hoped that Oxford Diecast would put some information about their wagons but it seems that only locos are exciting enough to get explanations so I have no idea what it is meant to model.  I am assuming the chassis is probably wrong but does it try and portray a late Victorian wagon?

 

Modelling updates will be resumed as soon as possible.  (When I have had time to do some!)

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

You mean this?

 

North British by Alan Jones, on Flickr

 

Mine's sat betwixt Cambrian Lime Wagon and Cambrian 4 plank as we speak. Just in time for you Chris, the build date on the printed works plate reads 1893. One was at Portmadoc in 1936 still carrying NB livery, whose to say one didn't make it earlier?

[Penlan]

Jubilee wagons, Queen Victoria's Jubilee was 1887.....