Washout at Dawlish

[Coombe Barton]

Just read on Facebook that Cameron has visited Dawlish this morning. No doubt it was a "flying" visit since he couldn't reach it by train!!!

The Cameron vid from Dawlish. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26137306

[TheQ]

The Cameron vid from Dawlish. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26137306

A reasonable view of the works, Captain Kernow and crew, if only that person in the red jacket wasn't in the way!!

The Q

Edited February 11, 2014 by TheQ

[The Stationmaster]

The headline in the story was misleading, as the quote from Network Rail Route MD makes clear, the intention is that any alternative route is a diversionary line, and not to replace it.

I'm not even sure if it was a proper quote in context - as I said above I would much prefer to wait and see a full statement from NR before jumping to any conclusions because it is all too easy for reporters to get things wrong or not fully understand what has been said (and that's before they start writing their own headlines, not much sub-editing about nowadays).

[Joseph_Pestell]

A little unfair. The fact that NR is not yet giving the meejah all its thoughts on routes and options does not imply that it lacks imagination or is unable to procure engineering expertise. Strategic planning does not occur in the heat of battle, but in calm pavilions back at base. I am confident that options will emerge in due course and be assessed on a wide range of merits, including stakeholder and TOC long-term interests. NR's sensitive attitude to its neighbours at Dawlish indicates it already understands community relations when things are bad. In the meantime they are doing great things only days after the initial damage.

 

Unfair perhaps to the British engineers (and architects). The real problem is the weakness of politicians in not standing up to a small minority of NIMBYs but the engineering profession could have done much more lobbying over the years.

 

I was not suggesting that there should be rapid knee-jerk thinking now. We get far too many duff projects/laws from our politicians that way e.g. Dangerous Dogs Act. But if the GW was thinking about a new route in 1936 - nearly 80 years ago - why has nothing happened since? No strategic thinking in this country where infrastructure is concerned, not just the railways.

[Peter Bedding]

Here's one only a few miles away from me, on the other side of the Channel:-

http://structurae.info/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0002532

Interestingly, the deck seems to be supported by some sort of lattice.

 

Thank you Brian. I had not seen that particular structure before (or at least not from that angle), but it is exactly what I had in mind. There is an uncanny resemblance between the two structures, even allowing for the century separation. More importantly, it does show that modern design can be elegant.

[Ramblin Rich]

Picking up the comments about the local bus operator offering some financial assistance (in terms of what amounts to a reduced fare between Dawlish and Exeter) then they are acting exactly as I would expect a fellow public transport operator to do in a serious situation - they are offering such help as they can and actually taking a loss of income for doing so.

 

------

 

It is in everyone's interest to keep vehicle traffic to the lowest practicable level.  Exeter is an ancient city constrained by having few approach roads which jam up at the restricted river crossings.  The more rail passengers who switch to bus use the easier each trip will be for everyone.  And for those who are advancing arguments over climate change then remember buses are generally subject to strict exhaust emissions making then much cleaner per user than private cars as well as being efficient users of space.

 

Once the trains return most people will probably go back to using them.  There will be a massive hole (pun intended) in FGW's budget so it's also in their interests to restore service and regain custom as soon as possible.

 

I do agree - I was being a little cynical regarding Stagecoach! I use their services every day to get to & from work, but the bus routes to / from Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish & Teignmouth are much slower and more expensive than rail (although they do have the advantage of much higher frequency of service). The A379 to Dawlish & Teignmouth is crowded, slow & has several narrow sections,. Any efforts to improve bus ridership (and keep people out of cars) will obviously help the viabliity of the routes.

 

Exeter's road system is really quite poor, no dual carriageways get anywhere near the city centre, nor is there anything like a ring road. It's one reason the replacement buses are better starting from Tiverton than Exeter - it can take a good 30-40 minutes to get from St Davids out to the motorway / A38; by which time, a service from Tiverton can be well past the area! The "Dawlish cutoff" could possibly give a faster & more resiliant route (while still serving Torbay), but whether it wll make sense financially is another thing...

[The Stationmaster]

Why? There's a lot of commuting and local holiday traffic between Dawlish Warren, Dawlish, Teignmouth and Torbay. I suspect they would prefer the restoration of the existing coastal route, and remember guys, until there are any more facts or official pronouncements to the contrary, that remains the only game in town.

I quite agree on that but don't overlook the fact that the 1936 scheme was an enhancement of capacity alongside, but more resilient than, a retained coast route.  I have hardly been in touch with train performance on the Dawlish section for quite a lot of years but even before the number of trains rose to present levels we regularly had delays and regulations problems trying to run the stoppers among the fasts and that reacted into connectional delays at Exeter and often poor time keeping and cancellations for the stoppers.

 

It appears that there are still capacity problems on that stretch at certain times of the year although the matter of increasing passenger numbers could at least be dealt with by running longer trains thus avoiding the problems created by running more trains but if there were a good 'metro' style service along the coast it would ultimately, I think, demand frequency as well as capacity.

 

The adding of 'a suitable alternative route' goes way beyond the simple matter of looking at comparative civil engineering costs and there are a whole host of issues extending beyond even the size and availability of trainsets to such things as the continuing issues of protection from the sea at, for example, Dawlish and future population growth in South Devon and Torbay.

 

Some of us who have contributed to this thread have experience of railway operational and planning issues, or planning and operating emergency trainplans,some of us have experience of railway infrastructure development schemes and some are very much in the front line of what is currently happening at Dawlish.  Some others might have experience - for all I know - in local authority planning, high finance and govt funding, or even coastal erosion or stormy sea behaviour and so on.  Plus of course we all have our particular points of view and have spouted forth on them  in a succession of circular arguments which have addressed some issues so many times, with or without hard factual support or the benefit of experience.

 

Let's go back please to where Mod 6 pulled us up short and forget debating - for I think now the fourth time - which route offers which advantages and wait NR and other agencies to come out with their own statements of what they have in mind or can offer, not what 'the medja' might or might not have thought they said.

[Christopher125]

RailNews also reporting the clarification from Network Rail - Network Rail denies Dawlish Plan

 

...but the company has denied a BBC report which claimed that the former Southern main line through Dartmoor via Okehampton and Tavistock had been selected for reopening, providing an inland alternative between Exeter and Plymouth.

 

A Network Rail source commented to Railnews: "I think there have been a few assumptions here, and they are not true."

 

In a statement about the former Southern line, Network Rail said: "It was closed in the 1960s and the land was sold off and built on. It would require substantial engineering, including new bridges and viaducts, before a new line could be constructed.

 

"While it is right to look at the alternatives, our priority now is to resume rail services to Devon and Cornwall as soon as possible. We will take forward a professional study on this once the current situation is resolved, engaging business, local authorities, communities and the rail industry in the advantages and disadvantages of alternative routes.

 

"In addition, we plan to develop a strategy and scheme that will provide increased levels of resilience to marine erosion as part of the Western Route Climate Change Adaption Plan by 2019. Implementation is currently planned for 2019 to 2024."

Chris

[JohnR]

Well, if you cant rely on the Route MD of Network Rail as a source, what are journalists to do?

[Ramblin Rich]

Well, if you cant rely on the Route MD of Network Rail as a source, what are journalists to do?

 Yes, it wasn't as if it was a written quote, Mr Hallgate was talking on camera! I don't think the BBC can be blamed for the story (although an update of the story on their website would be a good idea...)

[10800]

Here's what to do. I'm sure if we all save our pocket money we can make this happen.

 

1) Rebuild the atmospheric railway as a local/tourist line on the coast route from Exeter to Newton Abbot. That will sort out any concerns about electrification.

 

2) In tandem, build the GWR avoiding line from Exminster to Bishopsteignton for through trains to Torbay, Plymouth and beyond.

 

3) Open Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton as a steam heritage railway but also serving local traffic.

 

4) Build a steam shed and half-roundhouse on the DMU depot site at Exeter St Davids (this would be moved to Newton Abbot). Commission the building of new Z class tanks for occasional demonstrations of banking up to Exeter Central.

 

5) Ban package holiday flights to the Med from Heathrow, Stansted and Gatwick and use the slots to fly a 30 minute interval service of A380s to expanded airports at Exeter, Plymouth and Newquay.

 

6) Build a bridge from Penzance to the Scilly Isles ...

 

OK that's quite enough excitement for one day - nurse! NURSE!

Edited February 11, 2014 by 10800

[Fat Controller]

There are some earlier washouts shown on the BBC site:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-26125244

[Oldddudders]

Yes, Rod, you really must keep up the medication. Mind you, we thought that when you and Re6/6 announced you were going to build a 4mm model of the Ouse Valley Viaduct, and we know you actually did that, so......

[brushman47544]

4) Build a steam shed and half-roundhouse on the DMU depot site at Exeter St Davids (this would be moved to Newton Abbot). Commission the building of new Z class tanks for occasional demonstrations of banking up to Exeter Central.

Haven't you heard, the NA depot site has already been earmarked for a new diesel hydraulic depot to service the new fleet of locos due to replace the current diesel electrics. FGW reckon on running more trains on flooded tracks that way.

 

hat, coat...

[trisonic]

Yes, Rod, you really must keep up the medication. Mind you, we thought that when you and Re6/6 announced you were going to build a 4mm model of the Ouse Valley Viaduct, and we know you actually did that, so......

It was all getting a bit repetitive until I read Rod's post...................................

The good Cap'n appeared on the front page comments section of RMWeb - he is a little weary of media reporting (and who can blame him).

 

Best, Pete.

[Captain Kernow]

He did it whilst astride a swaying marine sheet pile too.  

 

Extreme Finescale, it's the new thing.  

You daft bu*gers, you actually made me laugh out loud!!

[Mallard60022]

Thank you Rod. I think that just about wraps this up for me.

However, despite me being no supporter, the PM has just said that no expense will be spared to help folk that are in trouble due to flooding. That is decisive and I hope will be the case.

As for Dawlish, that wasn't a flood was it.....?

P

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Why do people keep talking as if this is still the bad old days of the 1980s...(70s, 60s...) - we have a system being invested in at a rate that many watchers (myself included) have never seen before in their lifetimes...

Hi GNSE,

 

That's a good point and by and large I agree, yet it's how the money is spent and where it is spent that is also important.

 

In addition, I am concerned about the loss of tacit knowledge within organisations (ie the loss of wisdom). It is true to say that new methods of working can augment PPM and asset management, yet often these days, we see change for change sake (and not always for the better) and babies being thrown out with the bathwater.

 

Kindest,

 

CME

[Jonboy]

Out of curiosity what is the cost of delay minutes to NR in this sort of situation. How much would they save if a cap on payments was written into the next GW franchise on the basis of an alternative route being available (e.g. a cap of 120 minutes and no payment due for trains sent via the alternative route).

 

(Just trying to get a fell really for how the finances would stack up if you treated Seawall and alternative route as one cost centre over the year, rather than two distinct routes.)

[Captain Kernow]

I've seen something similar done before and there's usually some kind of slip knot between the hook and the bulk bag straps. I very much doubt there's anyone in the container! If there is, I don't fancy that job either...

I can tell you now, and will post some photos later, that they were rubbing the handles of the dumpy bags on the edges of the holes in the tops of the containers. When the handles broke, the ballast (and bag) fell into the container. So no, there was definitely no person inside the container!!

[Coombe Barton]

I can tell you now, and will post some photos later, that they were rubbing the handles of the dumpy bags on the edges of the holes in the tops of the containers. When the handles broke, the ballast (and bag) fell into the container. So no, there was definitely no person inside the container!!

Pity - we could have nominated candidates 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Ain't hindsight wonderful, especially through rose tinted (beer?) glasses. Some of the opinions expressed appear to be from know(sod)alls.

 

I'll read CKs opinions and believe them anytime, because he and the rest of the poor sods are actually out there doing something, not sitting and expressing often dubious views.

 

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

 

I agree, hindsight is always 20/20.

 

Yet prevention is always better than cure, so CK and his team wouldnt have to got at it b@lls to the wall <erm, so to speak>

 

As an ex-blue collar, then office bod, there is no subsitute to actually getting out and about and getting ones hands dirty.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited February 11, 2014 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Pannier Tank]

Mr Cameron says "money no object"  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26131515

[PhilJ W]

Pity - we could have nominated candidates 

They haven't got enough containers.

[jamie92208]

I can tell you now, and will post some photos later, that they were rubbing the handles of the dumpy bags on the edges of the holes in the tops of the containers. When the handles broke, the ballast (and bag) fell into the container. So no, there was definitely no person inside the container!!

Thanks for that CK I can now remove my tongue from my cheek.  The mischevious side of me did wonder who had drawn the short straw, perhaps the guy who broke wind in the canteen too often.

 

Jamie