Washout at Dawlish

[ThaneofFife]

I feel a nice HST train trip coming up once this line is back to normal services.........

[Peter Bedding]

I hope the following (factual) information may help understanding. My drawing is based on a survey undertaken by SR at the end of WW2; it shows the size of the gap (the Okement Gorge) which would have to be crossed.

 

In engineering terms it is small beer compared with modern road viaducts in Europe. In cost terms, we are frequently told that we have a world-class economy. So a new viaduct is not impossible.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well, I don't believe our economy is world-class when it comes to infrastructure investment. Not even close.

 

But agreed, referring to that drawing, that a new viaduct at Meldon would not be a hugely difficult engineering task.

[Fat Controller]

I hope the following (factual) information may help understanding. My drawing is based on a survey undertaken by SR at the end of WW2; it shows the size of the gap (the Okement Gorge) which would have to be crossed.

 

In engineering terms it is small beer compared with modern road viaducts in Europe. In cost terms, we are frequently told that we have a world-class economy. So a new viaduct is not impossible.

 

scan0054.jpg

Here's one only a few miles away from me, on the other side of the Channel:-

http://structurae.info/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0002532

Interestingly, the deck seems to be supported by some sort of lattice.

[bike2steam]

I can remember way back in 1988, standing on Swanage station talking to the, then, main man behind ( cant remember his name, Mervyn someone, or someone Mervyn ??) the old 'Heritage Steam Railway' newspaper/magazine ( I say newspaper as in those days that's how it came). We were talking about the latest bouts of winter storms, and their after effects, when the conversation got round to Dawlish, and he mentioned there had been a high level discussion on the issue - I presume nothing came of it 'cause we still got the same problem, I wonder if the latest events will produce anything ????

[Oldddudders]

I know nothing of the internal workings of Network Rail, but it seems likely that Mr Hallgate will be required to "sponsor" the assembly and rigorous appraisal of options, which will then be reviewed at Board level by NR, in close consultation with the DfT, acting on behalf of HM Treasury. I anticipate that some of this will be rather public, having regard to the potential need for CPOs etc. A Public Enquiry cannot be ruled out, I suspect, not least because nimby interests will quickly surface, in conflict with local politicians, who fortunately seem to be determined to get a good result out of this distressing event. Whatever, it is essential that processes and decisions are put in place quickly, if weather patterns continue as now.

 

I have travelled over most of the existing railways in the SW in the last couple of years, and believe elevating their profile is a good thing. As others have said, rolling stock is in short supply and not of the best, and a new focus might just move the region up a couple of rungs in the National priorities.

[The Stationmaster]

I can remember way back in 1988, standing on Swanage station talking to the, then, main man behind ( cant remember his name, Mervyn someone, or someone Mervyn ??) the old 'Heritage Steam Railway' newspaper/magazine ( I say newspaper as in those days that's how it came). We were talking about the latest bouts of winter storms, and their after effects, when the conversation got round to Dawlish, and he mentioned there had been a high level discussion on the issue - I presume nothing came of it 'cause we still got the same problem, I wonder if the latest events will produce anything ????

I will be interested to see what NR themselves say rather than what it is attributed to them in reports in the media although it might mean they are moving towards establishing an order of costs.  No doubt the good Captain will keep us informed.  

 

However at present I suspect Mr Hallgate's attention will be elsewhere as in addition to the problems in the west the line is already closed due to flooding between Didcot and Oxford and is teetering on the brink of major problems between Maidenhead and Twyford due to surface water coming into the cutting east of Ruscombe and knocking out track circuits.

Edited February 10, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Etched Pixels]

The BBC report as well as covering diversions also says

 

"Damage to the track at Dawlish means that the line between Exeter St Davids and Newton Abbot is not expected to reopen until mid April at the earliest, and in the meantime buses are replacing trains."

 

but it's not clear if that is also from Patrick Halligate or elsewhere.

 

Alan

[trisonic]

.  

However at present I suspect Mr Hallgate's attention will be elsewhere as in addition to the problems in the west the line is already closed due to flooding between Didcot and Oxford and is teetering on the brink of major problems between Maidenhead and Twyford due to surface water coming into the cutting east of Ruscombe and knocking out track circuits.

Nail on head there, Mike!

 

Best, Pete.

[Fat Controller]

The BBC report as well as covering diversions also says

 

"Damage to the track at Dawlish means that the line between Exeter St Davids and Newton Abbot is not expected to reopen until mid April at the earliest, and in the meantime buses are replacing trains."

 

but it's not clear if that is also from Patrick Halligate or elsewhere.

 

Alan

That seems to have been taken from the National Rail Enquiries site; it makes for grim reading this morning, with yet more flooding and problems with earthworks.

[PaulRhB]

The Whitebal blockade was handed back just over 3 hours early this morning, at 0151 hrs, with the Athelney route open. 2M01, the 0600 Exeter to Taunton local service ran through OK and got to Taunton on time - followed by 1A75 0636 Exeter to Paddington HST.

And I have to say your reports enabled me to pass on info that all was well with the job and it was very likely to open as planned, you know how the rumours run at local levels in the industry

Having seen the work done to keep the damage to a minimum on the West of England, MOM's S&T, Structures and Pway soaked and caked in mud for hours, I think there's a lot of pride in the job showing wherever the storms have hit

[Xerces Fobe2]

FiGW offering a 25% discount on all terrain journeys to Cornwall that are affecting by flooding and bus substitution. A pure common sense business decision by FGW for it's shareholders that also benefits the customer in these difficult conditions where no one is a winner!

 

XF

Edited February 10, 2014 by Xerces Fobe2

[Bomag]

FiGW offering a 25% discount on all terrain journeys to Cornwall ...

XF

 

So the option of going up and down the hills is presumably odds on

[Glorious NSE]

FiGW offering a 25% discount on all terrain journeys to Cornwall that are affecting by flooding and bus substitution. A pure common sense business decision by FGW for it's shareholders that also benefits the customer in these difficult conditions where no one is a winner

 

This came out of accusations of profiteering - when FGW cancelled all trains via Dawlish the morning after the breach they also wiped out all the cheap advance tickets via Dawlish linked to those specific trains...(which is perfectly logical, you can't really sell somebody a cheap ticket on a train that won't run!)

 

Various stakeholders including our local MP saw that as "putting prices up in response" - so FGW were under pressure to be seen to be doing something...

 

I suspect that the issue of availability of cheap tickets probably wasn't the biggest issue in their mind at the time they first announced it (IIRC the day after the breach) as they were still coming to terms with trying to run some kind of service at that point, but respect to them for trying to do something about it quickly!

[Glorious NSE]

I know nothing of the internal workings of Network Rail, but it seems likely that Mr Hallgate will be required to "sponsor" the assembly and rigorous appraisal of options, which will then be reviewed at Board level by NR, in close consultation with the DfT, acting on behalf of HM Treasury. I anticipate that some of this will be rather public, having regard to the potential need for CPOs etc. A Public Enquiry cannot be ruled out, I suspect, not least because nimby interests will quickly surface, in conflict with local politicians, who fortunately seem to be determined to get a good result out of this distressing event. Whatever, it is essential that processes and decisions are put in place quickly, if weather patterns continue as now.

 

I have travelled over most of the existing railways in the SW in the last couple of years, and believe elevating their profile is a good thing. As others have said, rolling stock is in short supply and not of the best, and a new focus might just move the region up a couple of rungs in the National priorities.

 

Sounds rather like a call to get any prospective stakeholders "on message" to me. Good that the National Park seems positive about it, as they would have the clout to put a rather large spanner in the works if they wanted to...

 

I think the rolling stock supply issue should ease (though i'm certainly not holding my breath for anything "shiny and new") with the multitude of electrification schemes, I doubt they can get anything done in under a couple of years at an *absolute minimum*, and the various bits of new wiring should be cascading a steady supply of 15x/16x by then.

[Ramblin Rich]

I'm fairly sure I saw Mr Hallgate interviewed on the BBC local news this morning, where he stated the Dartmoor route was the preferred scheme - however, it was 7am, the coffee hadn't started working & I can't look to see if it's available on iPlayer at the moment, so unverifiable for now.... However, it was recorded in daylight, so must have been done yesterday (at least). EDIT - or very early today! 2nd EDIT - no, it was still dark outside when i saw it, must have been yesterday ....

On ticketing, it's interesting that Stagecoach run the local buses to Dawlish from Exeter & they have extended their Exeter 'Dayrider' area to include Dawlish for the duration of the rail blockage, meaning it's possible to get cheaper day tickets on the routes. Presumably they are trying to get & retain new customers, as the bus fares (once outside the Exeter area) are considerably more than the rail fares; the journey times are rather longer too!

Edited February 10, 2014 by Ramblin Rich

[Glorious NSE]

Yes, noticeable that the buses, coaches and airlines have all been quick to "show their willingness to help folk out" / "dive in to scoop up as much business as they can get".

 

(delete as applicable)

 

 

Hadn't heard they had extended that ticket, might have to have a wander out as that'll presumably be "free" on my monthly ticket...

[Ramblin Rich]

The press release is here

 

Quote:

The operator hopes that that move will help ease travel problems for local residents commuting between Dawlish and Exeter by encouraging people not to resort to their cars on the busy A379 route.

 

 

So nothing to do with scooping as much business as possible

[Gerald Henriksen]

BBC carries this item this morning:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26110559

 

So now the politics can begin.

 

Regardless of the personal feelings of the Chairman of the Dartmoor National Park Authority, there are 22 people on the board who will be making the decision.  Given that some of them are appointed by Devon County (6), Teignbridge (2) and South Hams (1) it could be a very interesting debate depending on what exactly the plans are that Network Rail is talking about.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi,

 

I am slowly working my way through this - thought provoking - and lengthy Thread.

 

I will try not to be too controversial LOL!

 

I had some involvement with DSW in the 1990's.

 

I was privileged to work with some very skilled and knowledgable engineers (DSW and RA Bridge et al.) and what they didnt know about DSW could be written on the back of a postage stamp. I am not sure (and I suspect not) if such tacit, specific, local area/subject matter related knowledge is still in place.

 

As a commercial/procurement bod with an engineering bias, I was always taught that Planned Preventative Maintenance (PPM) is always the most cost effective route when maintaining assets such DSW. Capital investement for a 'new' DSW, in these, so we are told, austere times, would be a no no (I suspect) - whatever the politicians say so as to 'calm the revolt' (ie Boris and his pre-election promises to LUL/TFL staff being a case in point). It's the same for ditching and dredging (my father could tell chapter and verse on such after a career in farming/plant hire etc  - it was only a matter of time until major floods hit) et al. The Dutch cant believe that our authorities have been so slow to avoid (preempt) or resolve the Somerset flood issue.

 

After interim/remedial works a feasibility study for works on DSW and/or inland routes/options should be on the cards now - if common sense prevails (yet 'sense' isnt always common). BTW I dont remember the old SR route, or any other, being discussed, or considered, as an option, in my time with WR/RTGW (but that could be due to my failing memory - LOL!!)

 

I had also heard that, at the end of last summer, the Met Office et al had warned that the 'Jet Stream' was likely to throw a wobbly this winter (2013/2014) - so I would have thought that Network Rail should have been aware or alerted to such for the whole of the UK. Then, in the case of DSW, addtional/new/temporary, Groins, Gabions - or even loaded Containters - could have been placed at the weak points/high risk areas - thus helping to berm the wall etc.

 

I remember that DSW and RA Bridge were given a - relatively - high priority - for all of the obvious reasons - in terms of budget and maintenance, also in terms of emergencey repairs, new methods of working/maintenance and Financial/Procurement 'sign offs' at a local (Area Contracts Manager [ACM]) level. I wonder if such is still the case?

 

I did see a documentry whereby helicopters were being used for surveying DSW and other railway assets and helicopters have their place but there is no substiute for a close up inspection with an experienced (engineers') MK1 eyeball (IMHO).

 

I dare say that Brunel didnt expect DSW to last as long as it has, but when I joined WR then RTGW Zone, in one of my first meetings I heard the phrase 'maintenance holiday' mentioned, an almost self explantory phrase of course, yet I quieried such, so as to be sure that I was on the right wavelength. I then discovered that, back in WR/BR days, even on long lasting infrastructure such as bridges, due to budget cuts, even the bearings werent being maintained. Infrastruture is expensive to install or replace and as the UK invented railways we have some of the oldest in the world and it needs maintaining. I find it amazing that priorities such as our communications links and other key areas are being ignored whilst money is thrown at other, less needy - and IMHO, less honourable - causes by succesive governements. Govts, who love to quote the likes of Adam Smith - yet Smith mentioned maintaining lighthouses and communications links etc. for the good/wealth of the nation.

 

Whilst I am great supporter of charity and charitable acts, the UK needs to adopt the 'charity begins at home' ethos a little more so that we manage, such things as railway infrastructure and our waterways, all the more effectivley etc.

 

My heart goes out to all of those flooded, injured, inconvienenced by the weather. IMHO though these poor people have been impacted on, as far as I can see, because of poor asset management, poor asset maintenance (waterways et al.) and poor preemptive damage prevention, which has further compounded the impact of the awful weather we have all experienced of late.

 

There is the thorny subject of consultant led risk assessment and risk assessment training - not the good type, I hasten to add. Their form of risk assessment is the type which 'helps' an organisation by saving cash - through cut backs - using various skewed statistics, designed as far as I can tell, to please their pay-masters ie the board of directors and shareholders (more profits gained by spending less). Then said consultants often roll such out throughout the organisation in question, thus perpetuating the myth. Often the 'stats' dont take all into account of course and so the risk being managed is then mismanaged. Examples of this are the likes of, sadly, Ladbroke Grove and Southall et al. According to the consultants and their stats such rail accidents would never have happened in the way that they did (according to 2-4 day courses I was made to attend - yet left early, as I had heard/understood enough, then disagreed with the content/stats, so as to get on with some real/factual work - back in the early to mid 1990's).

 

Life - and the weather - is contingent and we have to do our best to cater for and manage it all as effectlvely as we can.

 

I shall go back to reading now LOL.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME.

Edited February 10, 2014 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Garry Morris]

The whole idea of the LSWR line being put back just doesn't add up on any level financially. Politically the debate has to be had to keep the media happy. If money is to be spent then it should go on making the journey time from Tiverton Parkway to Plymouth faster than the bus. At the moment we have potentially faster journey times to Paddington! Bus replacement is a regular event in this part of the world anyway so a few more weeks wont do any harm in the long run. If there was a need to run freight by rail in this part of the world then there may be some justification to reopening but unless we acknowledge climate change and insist on 'green' conveyance of freight this need will never emerge. We have very few companies that choose rail to move goods in the Westcountry because economically they are discouraged to do so. It's cheaper by road as is the case for most passenger journeys.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Mod6
OT text removed

[PaulRhB]

One of the problems is every bit of work you do has the consequences somewhere else, there's a lot of issues with run off from new housing and roads near railways now. Bits of the WoE that were crippled last year have stood up well in the latest storms so that money was well spent but you always worry about where the defences stop as that's the weak point. Saturated ground and some phenomenal gusts are bringing down perfectly healthy trees too which skews the figures on preventative maintenance on this particular problem. I spent three hours on Thursday watching trains past a tree that was leaning and had to shut down the line briefly a couple of times when the wind really hammered in, then our contractor did an amazing job in cutting it apart without blocking the line completely. A few minutes at caution on each train is much easier to recover than one big delay. Like standing under a shower head and I drowned my phone!

[Glorious NSE]

Why do people keep talking as if this is still the bad old days of the 1980s...(70s, 60s...) - we have a system being invested in at a rate that many watchers (myself included) have never seen before in their lifetimes...

[jamie92208]

To get back to topic can I say what a superb jog NR and their staff are doing at Dawlish as well as at Crewkerne, where the easy decison would have tbeen to close the line until repairs were complete.  This displays a real can do attitude and also real professional risk assessment in its proper form by competent staff whose decisions have been acted on.  I hope that the people concerned get some recognition.  I particularly like the way that they are looking after the residents at Dawlish in the midst of getting a cracking job done.  Congratulations to CK and ll his colleagues.

 

Jamie

Edited February 10, 2014 by Mod6
Off topic text removed

[Bernard Lamb]

Interesting points raised by CME.

In my job we carried out PPM even when all concerned considered it was not needed. It did at least focus the collective mind.

The problem is that in this country we do not do as they do in Holland.

We do not invest in alternatives and do not plan for very rare events. We build infrastructure to survive the worst case in 50 years scenario.

I know nothing about the sea and waves but did have to consult wind speed charts when building structures.

In the Home Counties structures would be built for around 75mph for example while on Orkney the maximum to be considered would be over 150mph.

I do not see the need or the political will for any change. It certainly would not go down well with the public when the costs became known.

Of course the increasing frequency of such events that many predict will alter the criteria over time.

Until then I see no viable alternative to filling in the hole and getting the trains running again ASAP.

Bernard