Washout at Dawlish

[Oldddudders]

 

 

There seems to be about £100-200 million floating about at the moment as a political "lubricant" to "ease the pain in the SW" - spending £5-10 million on such an assessment of Meldon  (perhaps covering any other structures on the route that could usefully be examined at small additional cost)  seems a good use

of some of the currently available time and money

While I share the view that re-opening of the route is unlikely, any study would indeed need to identify better-than-ballpark costs for so doing, just to enable a ranking of options. This will probably happen.

[cromptonnut]

I'm curious why "reversals" are considered a problem when the majority of passenger trains using that line are either units or HST's that can be driven from both ends with no need for run round etc.

 

Can someone enlighten me?

[Oldddudders]

I'm curious why "reversals" are considered a problem when the majority of passenger trains using that line are either units or HST's that can be driven from both ends with no need for run round etc.

 

Can someone enlighten me?

I think that has been covered several times already in this thread?

[The Stationmaster]

I'm curious why "reversals" are considered a problem when the majority of passenger trains using that line are either units or HST's that can be driven from both ends with no need for run round etc.

 

Can someone enlighten me?

 

If an HST is going to reverse there is a need to shutdown one cab and open the other plus you are talking about something considerably longer than a 2car dmu which means slightly more difficult communication all round for such minor inconveniences as changing the catering crew (and making sure they have changed of course) plus ideally the two Drivers involved need to talk to each other - or might have to talk because of any sort of problems with the set.  yes there are intercoms on the set but sometimes face-to-face communication is preferable.

 

So overall, even with (or more likely because of) a crew change, it is bound to take more time than a simple station stop - the last time I watched it being done it took c.5-6 minutes, with a Driver at each end.  Do it twice and your dwell time increase from, say, 4 minutes to around 10-12 minutes and if it is timetabled it would have to be given a reliable time, not just a 'quickie'.

[HillsideDepot]

And in the case of running via the LSWR you have to factor in the time to double-run Cowley Bridge to St David's and St Budeaux to North Road.

I know that changing to road transport is inconvenient and time consuming too, so there is a lot to be considered in any comparisons. 
 

[Pete 75C]

The "reliable" time that Mike mentions needs to be at least twice the "fastest possible" time. Radios need to be set up once you've changed ends and then there are all the little things that need to be addressed. Not least the height of the driver's seat. Don't laugh. If the train is to be met by a new driver to take it onwards, imagine if a vertically challenged driver was the last to use that cab and the seat is wound all the way up... any driver over say, 5'10", will be looking straight at the metal rim of the sun visor if he doesn't adjust the seat. Every little thing takes time. There are so many reasons why reversals should be avoided where possible, that is, assuming you don't want end to end journey times to go back to what they were 100 years ago...

Edited February 8, 2014 by Pete_S

[Coombe Barton]

Just thinking how lucky we are to have Mike (The Stationmaster) contributing to this thread.

[The Stationmaster]

Just thinking how lucky we are to have Mike (The Stationmaster) contributing to this thread.

 

Thanks, however over the years I have acquired many T shirts (and an amazing number of rail related ties) although admittedly one or two of them might well be from an earlier era.

[Rivercider]

If an HST is going to reverse there is a need to shutdown one cab and open the other plus you are talking about something considerably longer than a 2car dmu which means slightly more difficult communication all round for such minor inconveniences as changing the catering crew (and making sure they have changed of course) plus ideally the two Drivers involved need to talk to each other - or might have to talk because of any sort of problems with the set.  yes there are intercoms on the set but sometimes face-to-face communication is preferable.

 

So overall, even with (or more likely because of) a crew change, it is bound to take more time than a simple station stop - the last time I watched it being done it took c.5-6 minutes, with a Driver at each end.  Do it twice and your dwell time increase from, say, 4 minutes to around 10-12 minutes and if it is timetabled it would have to be given a reliable time, not just a 'quickie'.

The time penalty at the Exeter reversal would be quite heavy as most trains are only booked 2 minutes station time and trains have to retrace their path to Cowley Bridge.

At Plymouth the situation is somewhat different, there is a longer stretch of running where trains have to retrace their path. However set against that 5 out of 14 GW HSTs terminate at Plymouth anyway, and 13 out of 16 XC services terminate at Plymouth, and of those that go forward to Penzance one is booked 11 minutes station time.

 

edit

And of course there have been 10 planned HST reversals a day in each direction at Exeter since 18th Jan due to the planned Whiteball Blockade

cheers

Edited February 8, 2014 by Rivercider

[Fat Controller]

And Sod's Law means that when you've got to do a quick turnround, then you find the wipers don't work, the AWS/ATP doesn't function properly, the train fails the brake test or probably something else hasn't been noticed...  In the case of the trains I work with, then the train has to be fully closed before a brake-test can be carried out. From experience, I've found that more stock and crews (in our case about 50%) are required to maintain the same level of service if reversals have to be used. 

[yorkie_pudd]

A BIG THANKS too all those working for the rail industry for the extra information and pictures they have given us, that the media jungle would give blank cheques for this insight close up coverage.

 

 

warning humour alert:

 

so rail network temporary out of action - known & proved.

 

so if the clay traffic moves to road for temp measure, and rail coverage done by temp coaching and all other human movements done by road due to no rail links at moment. This leads to the though of will enough supplies get through by the temp road congestion for the production and nationwide delivery of the famous true Cornish pasty ? will they be a pasty shortness at over inflated black market prices.

 

(opens raincoat Cornish pasty £10 a pie)

 

At least being a yorkie theres plenty of growlers (pork pie) to keep me going

[griffgriff]

Trains from Waterloo didn't have to reverse at St Davids did they

 

Sorry I'm being a mischief maker

[Ravenser]

The time penalty at the Exeter reversal would be quite heavy as most trains are only booked 2 minutes station time and trains have to retrace their path to Cowley Bridge.

At Plymouth the situation is somewhat different, there is a longer stretch of running where trains have to retrace their path. However set against that 5 out of 14 GW HSTs terminate at Plymouth anyway, and 13 out of 16 XC services terminate at Plymouth, and of those that go forward to Penzance one is booked 11 minutes station time.

 

edit

And of course there have been 10 planned HST reversals a day in each direction at Exeter since 18th Jan due to the planned Whiteball Blockade

cheers

 

I did suggest earlier that you might terminate Paddington services at Plymouth (and presumably XC as well) , with passengers for destinations west of Plymouth changing to a Plymouth/Penzance shuttle. This would eliminate one of the reversals and the longer piece of double running: whether cross platform interchange would be possible at Plymouth in such circumstances I don't know?

 

This is on the basis that Plymouth is the main traffic objective west of Exeter anyway. Passengers for Newton Abbot and Paignton might be catered for by a shuttle from Plymouth.

 

What was running on the GW lines might then look very similar to what is being run at present - but with the crucial difference that it would be connecting at Plymouth into an hourly InterCity service to Exeter and Paddington running via Okehampton, and there would be rail access for stock movements in and out and return to maintenance depots (The same obviously would apply during any planned engineering blocades in South Devon)

Edited February 8, 2014 by Ravenser

[brianthesnail96]

The media, and thus that portion of society which reads the media, i.e. most of it, seems to want us to think that whenever anything goes wrong the British way is no longer to make do, muck in and get on with sorting it out, but instead to shout at the Government, various other agencies and management types, probably the banks as well for good measure. We blame them for not planning ahead, for not predicting the future well enough, for not investing enough money in the right places- oh, and we blame them for spending too much money, investing in the wrong things etc etc as well.

 

As such, it's been incredibly refreshing to read through this thread and, amongst the drivel, find a few gems from the good Cap'n and a few of his associates "on the ground", showing that there is a plan, there are people quietly and without fuss getting on with it and sorting it out, both short term and with some options lined up and being considered for the future, despite the decidedly adverse conditions and safety implications, and no doubt a certain amount of interference from the know- better brigade.

 

Fantastic stuff folks- I salute you, please keep up the good work!

 

Oh, and it's nice that at least a few folks have remembered that a.) Plymouth exists and b.) it ain't in damn Cornwall! Three happy years as a student there, and with my young lady being a year behind me I'm very grateful to the GW mainline for bring her up to Gloucestershire to see me at regular intervals for the year I left her down there Train was invariably busy too!

[Pete 75C]

A nice little media snippet further along the coast at Plymouth... According to Radio Plymouth 106.7, the owner of the Wet Wok Chinese Restaurant will be offering a 20% discount to anyone who doesn't take the mickey out of the name when the restaurant reopens after repairs...

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

Both lines east of Taunton now closed due to flooding and the SR West of England line blocked near Crewkerne by a landslip.

 

John

[Debs.]

Apologies if this link has been posted before. I've only just spotted this on the BBC News website:

How do you fix the Dawlish problem?

Seems to cover a lot of what has been discussed on here, but without the bluster and emotion.

 

Thank you for directing us to that article; it represents an interesting overview of the issues and history, for those like myself, whom don`t know the area.

[Guest Belgian]

There seems to be a sub-thread going on in this one about additional time caused by reversals and duplicate mileage for trains running via Okehampton to Plymouth. Isn't this a bit of a mare's nest? 

 

At the same time the consensus (bar a few individuals who seem determined not to listen to anyone else) seems to be that a through route via Okehampton would be used ONLY IN EXCEPTIONAL circumstances and that the Dawlish route would continue to be the principal route. So, would an extra 15 or even 30 minutes really matter if one was travelling on a train which had been diverted because the principal route was closed - even if it went on for 6 weeks or more - at least there would still be trains.

 

Nevertheless, I still don't think any of the alternatives will ever stack up financially and the Dawlish seawall will be repaired and that will be it. What proportion of its total lifetime has it actually been impossible for trains to run over it?

 

JE

 

EDIT: Whilst I was writing that I see that the line would be inaccessible from either line to Exeter anyway today! And Cowley Bridge Junction flooding cuts both the Bristol and Okehampton lines out of Exeter at the same time.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Belgian

[Oldddudders]

I've seen several reasons passing by in recent contributions as to why reversals are to be prohibited for a diversionary route, all of them have a validity of sorts. But, in those exceptional circumstances, I'd say that having to disembark on a platform in bad weather (the reason for the diversion in the first place), make your way to a bus, which by it's nature cannot be on the opposite platform and will be less spacious as your train seat, then go to another platform and repeat the performance in opposite direction won't have that much appeal over the alternative of 2 reversals that do take time, but overall much less then the bustitution saga, while you remain in your seat, dry and comfy. Besides, some reasons given are really getting dragged in by the hair kickin'n screamin', just to justify the opinion that reversals are bad. (bad radio, bad ATP, etc. Listen, if those were out of order, that set wouldn't even be allowed to leave the depot in the first place. Besides, if they'd break down on route, the TOC has contingency plans in place to allow the driver to continue and finish the journey, be it at a lower speed perhaps) I'm a driver, I know you can encounter all kinds of minor and sometimes major malfunctions of on-board technology, but that's no excuse to justify banning a double reversal on a diversionary route in case of major disruption on the line normally used.

So, Stationmaster, who has decades of experience on the very railway in question, Lifeboatman, who has considerable experience as a driver, and I who was once Operating Assistant for the South Eastern Division, not to mention sundry other duties in the Control, as a station manager and as Traffic Regulator in London Bridge Multi-Panel signalbox, know nothing. Ok.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

South West Trains have a "bad weather" timetable to ensure resilance of their core services, which means that Waterloo - Weymouth trains terminate at Bournemouth and the Poole semi-fasts are cancelled. Passengers for Poole/Weymouth changing into an hourly shuttle service from Bournemouth.

 

This appears to work well.

 

Presumably IF the SR route was resurrected (though to be honest I can't see it in my lifetime), then an emergency timetable would be in place that would see perhaps passengers for Cornwall changing at Plymouth after just the one reversal at Exeter.

 

But the WR line will always remain the principal route to the west.

[The Stationmaster]

I've seen several reasons passing by in recent contributions as to why reversals are to be prohibited for a diversionary route, all of them have a validity of sorts. But, in those exceptional circumstances, I'd say that having to disembark on a platform in bad weather (the reason for the diversion in the first place), make your way to a bus, which by it's nature cannot be on the opposite platform and will be less spacious as your train seat, then go to another platform and repeat the performance in opposite direction won't have that much appeal over the alternative of 2 reversals that do take time, but overall much less then the bustitution saga, while you remain in your seat, dry and comfy. Besides, some reasons given are really getting dragged in by the hair kickin'n screamin', just to justify the opinion that reversals are bad. (bad radio, bad ATP, etc. Listen, if those were out of order, that set wouldn't even be allowed to leave the depot in the first place. Besides, if they'd break down on route, the TOC has contingency plans in place to allow the driver to continue and finish the journey, be it at a lower speed perhaps) I'm a driver, I know you can encounter all kinds of minor and sometimes major malfunctions of on-board technology, but that's no excuse to justify banning a double reversal on a diversionary route in case of major disruption on the line normally used.

 

Don't overlook the simple fact that we too have done it in the past - and with the sort of trains we're talking about here.  The simple fact is that reversals can get complicated all too easily and they do chew up time, usually more than you expected when you wrote the plan - and passengers don't always like it  (maybe our passengers are more important than those in Holland - 'rail rage' isn't entirely unknown alas).

 

The big problem with building a service on this basis is that it can very easily go wrong - one train adrift and not only is your platforming thrown out but crew balances fall apart, followed by set balances and so on.  We can, I'm sure, still cope with such things but the margin of spare capacity - in just about everything from trainsets to catering crews - simply doesn't exist nowadays and delays begin to snowball until you have no choice but to cancel trains in order to rebalance things.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

A nice little media snippet further along the coast at Plymouth... According to Radio Plymouth 106.7, the owner of the Wet Wok Chinese Restaurant will be offering a 20% discount to anyone who doesn't take the mickey out of the name when the restaurant reopens after repairs...

 

wetwok.jpg

 

ewsjo and I ate there when visiting the Plymouth show with Embankment Road (Baby Laira)! Very good Chinese!

Cheers,

 

Jack

[Rivercider]

Don't overlook the simple fact that we too have done it in the past - and with the sort of trains we're talking about here.  The simple fact is that reversals can get complicated all too easily and they do chew up time, usually more than you expected when you wrote the plan - and passengers don't always like it  (maybe our passengers are more important than those in Holland - 'rail rage' isn't entirely unknown alas).

 

The big problem with building a service on this basis is that it can very easily go wrong - one train adrift and not only is your platforming thrown out but crew balances fall apart, followed by set balances and so on.  We can, I'm sure, still cope with such things but the margin of spare capacity - in just about everything from trainsets to catering crews - simply doesn't exist nowadays and delays begin to snowball until you have no choice but to cancel trains in order to rebalance things.

I don't think anyone is suggesting diversions and reversals are desirable, but in difficult circumstances it is good to have the option.

The Whiteball Blockade, which is due to finish this weekend, has been covered by a combination us bustitution and diversion, including reversals.

Ironically that blockade may so far have reduced the number of rail travellers disrupted by the Dawlish incident as leisure travellers, myself included,

have opted not to book a holiday during the last three weeks. (I will probably have to drive down though in two weeks time as I will not rely on the  buses)

 

cheers

Edited February 8, 2014 by Rivercider

[Pete 75C]

Dutch_Master, I'm not sure anyone suggested reversals should be "banned" or "prohibited"... unless I missed something? From an operating point of view they are just not a good idea. If indeed I do know nothing, that actually suits me fine as there are always people that know more than me. Mind you, twice nothing is still nothing, isn't it? I can't even remember who started all the chatter with regard to reversals now... it wasn't me, m'lud. Pete.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Pete_S

[Kris]

I see that the Southern Line into Exeter is now closed for a week due to a landslide. 

 

Is Taunton as far west as you can get a train now?