SOS Junction. If anything happens would someone wake me up please..

[colin penfold]

Phil in the picture the right hand PL13 is only halfway over. You need to make sure they are both fully over and on the same side (normal or reversed) as the point is set. You then need to test that they are working mechanically when you throw the switch and both are going fully over every time. If they dont work mechanically they wont be working electrically.

[Mallard60022]

Good Morning Phil

 

This is your Canadian Lurker calling.

 

When I started my DCC layout 8 years ago I was a total, absolute novice.......I dont claim to be an expert now.....ohms and amps are still a mystery to me.......I have numerous Multimeters which I still cant get to work.......but I am able to identify the, now happily, occasional fault using a rrampmeter

 

http://tonystrains.com/product-category/products/ddc-current-measuring-meters/

 

 Its made in the US but I believe there are UK suppliers. Its a brilliant tool for people like you (I suspect) and me. Dont worry about all the fancy information you can get......the key thing is the ability to get an instant read out enabling you by a process of elimination to quickly determine which feed is suspect.

 

While I am in preaching mode.......when you set up your DCC system will you be installing a circuit breaker? Its undoubtedly the best insurance policy I ever bought.

 

Kind Regards from a damp Vancouver

 

John

Hi John. Good to hear from you. The answer to CB is yes. I will have an NCE 'short indicator' (allows for six districts and is an array of bulbs) and I shall invest in an appropriate number of actual CBs having taken advice from Digitrains as to where I can shove them 

Despite my failure to comprehend the fault(s) I have at the moment I am looking forward to using my DCC stuff that was/is used on another small layout. I didn't build that, only extended it, hence my feeble grasp of trickery.

I do have a meter but it is so long since someone showed me how to use it that I have forgotten.

Suppose if I posted a pic on here someone would tell me what settings to use?

Philth.

[Mallard60022]

Phil in the picture the right hand PL13 is only halfway over. You need to make sure they are both fully over and on the same side (normal or reversed) as the point is set. You then need to test that they are working mechanically when you throw the switch and both are going fully over every time. If they dont work mechanically they wont be working electrically.

Sorry, the points aren't attached so the motors are possibly 'loose', but you having said that I should refit and operate the points whilst the board is inverted and check what you have said. I did do that with points attached before I fitted the pod and added the other track, but maybe I hadn't centered them correctly. Thanks for that.

P

[brianusa]

I realise this is no consolation Phil, but now you know why I went three rail!

 

Brian.

[john dew]

Hi Phil

 

I am so glad CBs are in the spec for SOS........I shudder to think how many dollars I have saved by avoiding puffs of blue smoke. I have 4 mounted where I can see them.....if a loco stops unexpectedly the CBs are first thing I look at.

 

I am sure analogue multimeters are brilliant for people who know what they are doing .......I just dont find them user friendly.....even with crocodile clips I find it difficult to set them up so I can read them quickly particularly as I need to sort out whether I have my bifocals or computor specs or whatever. They usually have some power saver system. So I take forever to set it up.....start looking for the fault (and my specs) by which time the power saver has kicked in......or the battery has died! 

 

The beauty of the Rrampmeter (no connection disclaimer) is that it has this big bright digital display which is super easy to spot out of the corner of your eye showing both power and usage.

 

Plug over......whatever you decide you should find some reliable measurement tool you are comfortable with to quickly locate the fault area

 

Cheers 

 

John

[Mallard60022]

I should have done this layout lark about 40 years ago but have never quite got around to doing a whole one. I have had two ex 'exhibition layouts' (still have the EM one) and have only ever extended those  in a simple way electrically, but I did build almost all my own 'extension' points for the EM one. 

If I'd still been working I would have got in some professional help, however I do like doing most of the other layout stuff. 

I've had some very kind offers of trickery help here at 36E but I am determined to crack this simple set of challenges myself as I need to know how to do it and sort it.

Anyway, enough of this as we are only talking about some model stuff and there are far more important things in life and I need to remember that.

Phil 

[Mallard60022]

Hi Phil

 

I am so glad CBs are in the spec for SOS........I shudder to think how many dollars I have saved by avoiding puffs of blue smoke. I have 4 mounted where I can see them.....if a loco stops unexpectedly the CBs are first thing I look at.

 

I am sure analogue multimeters are brilliant for people who know what they are doing .......I just dont find them user friendly.....even with crocodile clips I find it difficult to set them up so I can read them quickly particularly as I need to sort out whether I have my bifocals or computor specs or whatever. They usually have some power saver system. So I take forever to set it up.....start looking for the fault (and my specs) by which time the power saver has kicked in......or the battery has died! 

 

The beauty of the Rrampmeter (no connection disclaimer) is that it has this big bright digital display which is super easy to spot out of the corner of your eye showing both power and usage.

 

Plug over......whatever you decide you should find some reliable measurement tool you are comfortable with to quickly locate the fault area

 

Cheers 

 

John

I'm using one of these as an indicator for districts and I shall look at the essential breakers later as I'm using a Booster.

P

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Phil

 

I cannot see anything wrong there. As Colin says are the point motors and their switches going fully over mechanically?

 

If still no power at the frogs remove the sleeving on the frog wires and check the joints under it. 

[The Stationmaster]

Well I tried, I really did and it made b all difference. So I have taken some pics of the points and the motor wiring.

Checked:

no dry joints AFAICS;

power either side of the cross over;

point wiring as per Peco booklet (but that does not show a cross-over only a crossing;

motors actually work;

points actually work;

loco actually works.

Cant test the switches as I don't know how to do that.

 

So here are some pics of the points and the motor wiring. If anyone can spot a fatal blunder please tell me. If anyone can trace the point wiring and see what's wrong if anything, that would be great. The motors work, it's the three wires coming out of the switch that must be co*k eyed. 

Having taken the whole thing to bits I have done just one thing and that is to remove the dropper parts of the stock rail added 'bridge wires' as per Peco (and others) modification as they don't seem to make any difference at all. The bridge wires joining the stock rails are still in situ. The little Peco wires have been cut on both points so it's not that. Each point shows the feed wires at the end and the frog wire (green).

Also, having taken the whole unit/pod apart I am tempted, as I said before, to rethink the whole thing.

For example, if I left the points unmodified and just hand operated (there are only a couple of occasions where a cross-over is required) them would I still need to switch the polarity (and if I do I'd use a Juicer source)?

Apologies for again appearing to be totally lacking in any understanding and it's only a bl00dy cross-over FGS.

Phil

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Many thanks again.

 

's'cuse me guv but are you trying to feed both polarities to the crossing (frog) at the same as it looks to me like art of it is hard wired and part of it is switched.  If those two happen to connect (and there appears to be little or no insulation between them) something heading through the points when they are set to crossover will come to a juddering halt especially if the wheel tyre sort of bridges the insulating gap.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Mike

 

The points look Ok to me

 

[Andrew P]

Hi Mike

 

The points look Ok to me

 

POINTY DUCK.jpg

Have they been gapped underneath, (the two little wires)?

[NHY 581]

For some reason I saw that and thought of this........

[bigwordsmith]

Phil - looking at the points pics you have some soldered wires which are not original  between the fixed parts of the tie bars and the adjacent rails. I've not seen this on mine, but wonder if that could be causing the problem when you run the points back to back.

 

I'm afraid the only way to find out what is happening is to unwire something and see if the rest works and go through the whole set up bit by bit testing each part as you go - when you find it stops working then you'll see what went wrong - it's ball aching, but it is really how most of us learned how to wire.

[Clive Mortimore]

Phil - looking at the points pics you have some soldered wires which are not original  between the fixed parts of the tie bars and the adjacent rails. I've not seen this on mine, but wonder if that could be causing the problem when you run the points back to back.

 

I'm afraid the only way to find out what is happening is to unwire something and see if the rest works and go through the whole set up bit by bit testing each part as you go - when you find it stops working then you'll see what went wrong - it's ball aching, but it is really how most of us learned how to wire.

Hi Smifffy

 

Quite a few people add those connections, they power the closure rails without having to rely on the blades making 100% contact with the stock rails. They are positioned correctly as not to interfere with the polarity of the frog.

[bigwordsmith]

Thanks Clive - I've not seen that before - My solution involves cleaning the blades with a track cleaner or track magic - or both, and bending the blade slightly to ensure a tighter close

[Clive Mortimore]

Question for the Duckmaster

 

Phil do you get the trains running OK when the points are set for the red routes?

 

 

Is it when set for the yellow route they do not run?

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Clive - I've not seen that before - My solution involves cleaning the blades with a track cleaner or track magic - or both, and bending the blade slightly to ensure a tighter close

That's what I do, cos I am too lazy to add two bits of wire. Must do a feasibility study into how much time it takes to solder two wires compared to how much time I spend on cleaning the blades over a points life time. 

[Mallard60022]

Question for the Duckmaster

 

Phil do you get the trains running OK when the points are set for the red routes?

 

POINTY DUCK a.jpg

 

Is it when set for the yellow route they do not run?

 

POINTY DUCK b.jpg

Yes.

Yes.

Thanks

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Clive, it takes about five minutes to do the Peco modification if the soldering, tools and desk and wire is all ready and waiting.

P

 

Have they been gapped underneath, (the two little wires)?

Yes.

P

[The Stationmaster]

Yes.

Yes.

Thanks

Phil

 

Back then to check what I said Phil - looking at them in the underneath view you have the straight route rail coming out of the crossing hard wired to the switch rail while the curved route rail coming out of the crossing is fed from the green wire.  IF there is any sort of contact between the two when you set the points for the divergent route the loco will stop when at least one current collecting pair of wheels gets on to the crossing or the wheels themselves might bridge the small isolating gap/piece of plastic between the two rails.

 

So the situation you might have is one of the following -

 

1. It is as I've described above, or

2. The green wire is getting its feed from the wrong side at the switch (and thereby giving you the same polarity in both rails in the turnout route), or

3. The switch isn't making contact properly, or

4. There is a break within the green wire (unlikely), or

5. The green wire isn't making proper contact with the rail coming out of the crossing (dry joint), or

6. The great god electrickery doesn't like you (it happens, I've had past experience with the fellah)

 

Normal Peco wiring on 'live frog' points is to connect the relevant rail beyond the crossing to the appropriate switch rail and it seems to work  so I might be barking up the wrong tree - but still worth checking out I think.  As it happens I much prefer to wire the crossing so it only feeds (to both rails coming out of it) via a changeover switch although on an arrangement such as you have that would obviously require an extra ing rail joiner in the straight route beyond the crossing.

[Mallard60022]

's'cuse me guv but are you trying to feed both polarities to the crossing (frog) at the same as it looks to me like art of it is hard wired and part of it is switched.  If those two happen to connect (and there appears to be little or no insulation between them) something heading through the points when they are set to crossover will come to a juddering halt especially if the wheel tyre sort of bridges the insulating gap.

I have not done anything to the PECOBOO frog wiring other than attach, with a good soldered joint, a green wire to the provided PECOBOO bit of wire as it came.

Phil

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Stick to Insulfrog?

 

 

Hat, coat, going outside, may be sometime...

[Mallard60022]

Thanks all. I've given up at the moment but I shall look at the switch movement this afternoon and the switch wiring on one of the points.

Thank you. This is such a kind and generous thread section and I really appreciate your time. If I come across as a bit short at the moment it's because I am bl**dy annoyed. Sorry

Phil

[Andrew P]

I have not done anything to the PECOBOO frog wiring other than attach, with a good soldered joint, a green wire to the provided PECOBOO bit of wire as it came.

Phil

Phil this may be a rude, daft, silly question, but have you put insulating Fish Plates between the Points?

 

Please don't shout at me.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Andy, that was my first thought but Clive's post shows insulating fishplates present and correct....