SOS Junction. If anything happens would someone wake me up please..

[cromptonnut]

Right, I am really pi$$ed off now as my sodding trailing crossover doesn't cross over. My boasting about the point motors working was OK, but pride deffo comes before a huge tumble.  I've spent ages this afternoon, checking that the Pecoboo PL10s + PL13 switches for the frogs are wired correctly. The main lines run OK, however the cross over bit doesn't seem to work.

I have the double IRJs between the points. The frogs appear to be 'dead' for the cross over.

Can I ask, is this because I am testing it with a DC Controller and DC loco and should I instead be fitting out this section with my DCC power set up and then test it (with a DCC loco obviously). My brain hurts and I can't fathom it out. Please, do not refer me to the on line diagrams as I've got no idea what they are on about most of the time.

Thanks

P

 

It's not something really stupid like a missing insulating fishplate?

[bigwordsmith]

Ref the study discussion - we now in the UK have situation where around 60% of people who do what is called 'knowledge work' spend less than half their time in an office - as a result working at home has become very popular. 

 

As I'm self-employed I've done this off and on for around 30 years. I do also have an office in Brighton, but because I used it so rarely we rented it out.

[Oldddudders]

Ducky - I cannot imagine any wiring that would not work equally well with both DC & DCC. Indeed, the classic way of converting a layout is simply to unplug the DC kit and plug in the DCC setup, turning all section switches to 'on'. I'm sorry you feel you have a blind-spot about wiring, which most of us find tedious but at least logical. I certainly endorse talking to Digitrains, but do make an exact copy of your wiring in the affected zone so they have real facts to look at.

[bigwordsmith]

Phil, I found that electrofrog double slips totally did my head in, but I've still fitted about six around the layout - four still to be wired up. I face that prospect with the same enthusiasm as visiting the hygienist, just the knowledge that while it will be uncomfortable, I'll feel better when it's over!

 

Part of your problem is you are using a single PL13 when you need double pole changing - Peco do a double switch, I think it is a PL15

 

The key to getting the whole polarity switching thing is to think in terms of the electricity as a colour - you need blue for the left side of the engine and red for the right. IT doesn't matter if its DCC or analog, a short circuit is a short circuit.

 

So to get the hang of it in your mind you need to draw yourself a little diagram - It's a good thing to do yourself because it helps you understand how the dratted thing works.

 

Here's one I pinched off the interweb. It shows the switchable pets - the frogs - in green and the bits that get no power at all in black

 

Ignore all the bits about "to Track Autoreverser" and so on because you're using a PL13  or to be more precise 2 x PL 13s

 

 

SO now imagine you have a train going  top right to bottom left- it needs the diagram to look like this...

 

 

When you run trains the other way the polarity needs to flip - which means both switches need to throw at the same time - with a PL10 point motor this doesn't work, so you need the PL15. 

 

I know nothing about DCC, so don't know how a frog juicer would work, but suspect you will need one for each end of the crossover

 

Hope that helps

 

Peter

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Thanks for all that. Maybe I should just go to Lincoln with the bit of layout? 

This is a cross over not my crossings that I didn't even contemplate other than using a juicer.

It isn't a missing IRJ. It is my power supply or my wiring.

This one

Two motors, through one switch, that work. Straight on on both mains work. The crossover manoeuvre does not work....yet, as I have yet to feed all the tracks in the area with DCC power today sometime.

My head hurt yesterday so I probably wasn't thinking straight.

Thanks for advice so far. At least there are no arguments on here (not that I've noticed)..

Phil

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Mallard60022

[Clive Mortimore]

I have just tried to read the Bus Question thread...........oh my!!! I am confused. Power Bus must not run near control bus?????? I thought with DCC it all went down the same two wires. One lives and learns.

 

And all the talk of twisting the bus wires to reduce the impedance. OK in theory but running physically and electronically in parallel with the wires are two (or more) much larger LIVE metal conductors which cannot be twisted which will cause more impedance than untwisted wires. From want I have learned on the Peekaboo Bullied Track thread they may be called "rails".

[Clive Mortimore]

Right, I am really pi$$ed off now as my sodding trailing crossover doesn't cross over. My boasting about the point motors working was OK, but pride deffo comes before a huge tumble.  I've spent ages this afternoon, checking that the Pecoboo PL10s + PL13 switches for the frogs are wired correctly. The main lines run OK, however the cross over bit doesn't seem to work.

I have the double IRJs between the points. The frogs appear to be 'dead' for the cross over.

Can I ask, is this because I am testing it with a DC Controller and DC loco and should I instead be fitting out this section with my DCC power set up and then test it (with a DCC loco obviously). My brain hurts and I can't fathom it out. Please, do not refer me to the on line diagrams as I've got no idea what they are on about most of the time.

Thanks

P

Sorry Phil, but what is a IRJ ?

 

With a cross over all you have is two points. Treat each one as a separate point with respect to the frog (sorry crossing vee) polarity.

 

From what you have described the points are switching over together, so your point power/control wiring seems OK. It is the frog polarity or power supply that is not working, am I correct? 

 

You have the plastic insulating rail joiners, that is good.

 

Is the track power feed to each point at the switch end?

 

Irrespective of the type of device used for switching the points from one way to the other the wiring for the frog (sorry crossing vee) is the same. One wire from each track to the switch or frog juicer and one to the frog. The important thing is to ensure that the two wires from the track go to the correct side of the switch (or frog juicer) so when the point is reversed the polarity of the frog changes. 

 

Assembly inspector head on, physically check each solder joint, look to see if you have a dry joint, the solder looks grey not silver, is so apply some heat so that the solder runs and forms a joint. Dry joints do not transmit electricity. Give each joint a tug and if any come apart re-solder them. Again joints that are not properly soldered, i.e. weak with not conduct the electrickery very well, if at all.

[bigwordsmith]

Ah sorry Phil I thought you meant a crossing ! D'oh

 

So your two sets of wiring should work in opposite directions, but you can use one switch to trigger the point motors - I  have several crossing like that.

 

For the purposes of this diagram a train is reversing over the crossing  from the top line to the bottom  so the polarities are right for the lower line ( Blue (=-ve ) to the left) but wrong for the top line - it does;t matter because the idea is that you have the same polarity through the crossing.

 

 

 

The tricky bit is remembering that you need to wire the two PL13 switches in the opposite mode to each other

 

Hope act helps

 

Peter

[unravelled]

Sometimes testing with a simple bulb and two bits of wire makes it easier to see what's going on. A voltmeter might give a bit more information if you have one to hand. I'd want to check what's happening across the Insulated rail joiners when it's switched to the crossover route.

 

Dave

[Mallard60022]

Oh that's helpful guys. I suspect I may have not wired the points for opposite track feeds. I shall do some checking later today; SWMBO is demanding I go shopping now. Pah!

P

 

Ph Yes IRJ = Insulated rail joiner.

[Captain Kernow]

we now in the UK have situation where around 60% of people who do what is called 'knowledge work' 

Do the remaining 40% do 'ignorance work?'

[bgman]

In that same situation ( using slow-mo turnout motors) I've just wired in some of they Froggie Juicers. I did have a problem with one which, when I investigated, was found to still have the damn wires still attached ( the small ones which need removing when modifying).

Simple mistake but easily done !

As a probably said before, mine's a test to learn about all this but finally got there.

Happy shopping !

 

p.s. Will the car automatically be going near a certain DCC retailer ?

[Oldddudders]

Do the remaining 40% do 'ignorance work?'

 

Some are certainly impressively ignorant....

[Captain Kernow]

Enjoy your shopping trip, Phil!

 

I did (one of) mine yesterday and whilst the trip itself was perfectly satisfactory (although CTMK didn't find the posh coffee machine that she was looking for), the 50 minute wait in the tail back on the east-bound A38 near Lee Mill was not so amusing.

[bigwordsmith]

@ the Captain - I believe 'knowledge work' is what used to be called 'white collar work' until the PC brigade got hold of it.

 

As an impoverished first jobber I seem to recall that by Friday, my collar could only be called 'white' if you ignored the bit that came into contact with my neck!

[The Stationmaster]

Phil.

 

If you have everything wired correctly you've either got a dry joint or - more likely a switch with a contact which isn't properly making contact.  Testing with a small bulb between a couple of bits of wire is one easy way to check if electrickery is actually going where it is meant to be going.  The other thing to check is that you actually turned on all the switches that should be turned on - i.e. both sets of running line are connected to the same controller and are wired the same way round.

 

To test with an engine preferably use a short wheel base machine and first run it from one end of the crossover and then from the other - if it goes alright through the first point but not the second try it the other way and it should stop in the first point, you will have then isolated which point is the problem.

 

BTW I am tryping this from my study - not as cosy as another we have seen but very full of things like bookshelves (full), a table (full), built in desk (full) floor - fairly full, cat (occasional visitor for sun bathing), second cat (occasional visitor in order to sit on the only chair).

[Mallard60022]

In that same situation ( using slow-mo turnout motors) I've just wired in some of they Froggie Juicers. I did have a problem with one which, when I investigated, was found to still have the damn wires still attached ( the small ones which need removing when modifying).

Simple mistake but easily done !

As a probably said before, mine's a test to learn about all this but finally got there.

Happy shopping !

 

p.s. Will the car automatically be going near a certain DCC retailer ?

Been there and done that quite recently. The 'learning experience' is quite satisfying, however at my age I'm running short of learning time. 

Digitrains....I could drive but Lincoln traffic is chaos at the moment; I could cycle along an old railway line but I'm knackered at the moment. I will go on the tiny toot to Lincoln as DigiT's is about ten minutes walk from L central. It is easy to carry goodies back on the train as well. I can use my old far*s card as well.

Philth

[Mallard60022]

Phil.

 

If you have everything wired correctly you've either got a dry joint or - more likely a switch with a contact which isn't properly making contact.  Testing with a small bulb between a couple of bits of wire is one easy way to check if electrickery is actually going where it is meant to be going.  The other thing to check is that you actually turned on all the switches that should be turned on - i.e. both sets of running line are connected to the same controller and are wired the same way round.

 

To test with an engine preferably use a short wheel base machine and first run it from one end of the crossover and then from the other - if it goes alright through the first point but not the second try it the other way and it should stop in the first point, you will have then isolated which point is the problem.

 

BTW I am tryping this from my study - not as cosy as another we have seen but very full of things like bookshelves (full), a table (full), built in desk (full) floor - fairly full, cat (occasional visitor for sun bathing), second cat (occasional visitor in order to sit on the only chair).

I used to have one of those little bulb holders for doing that but it is lost forever. I shall be looking at things this afternoon and evening if I can escape from SWMBO's shopping activities. She is away for most of next week..........did I her myself cheering?

P

[bgman]

Did you say the wife's away mate ? Well .......

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Right, just paid for the shopping and some garden shed wood stuff so am now 'in credit' for some time to come. LOL BG; when did you take the pic of my sink then?

OK back to serious stuff, I must  should get the Xover sorted before the CCE arrives Friday week, however he might say it's not in the correct position in relation to the Station lines and curvey bits, so I think I shall work out how it works and then maybe redo the whole thing. I might even replace the motors and use Cobalts, despite that meaning I have to cut some boards up to accommodate the depth of those beauties.

Phil

Edited April 6, 2016 by Mallard60022

[dhjgreen]

Just found this thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82425-a4-60022-mallard-to-a4-4903-peregrine-war-time-black/

Have you secretly been under the knife/ cosmetic surgery Mr Duck.

[Mallard60022]

Right, just paid for the shopping and some garden shed wood stuff so am now 'in credit' for some time to come. LOL BG; when did you take the pic of my sink then?

OK back to serious stuff, I must  should get the Xover sorted before the CCE arrives Friday week, however he might say it's not in the correct position in relation to the Station lines and curvey bits, so I think I shall work out how it works and then maybe redo the whole thing. I might even replace the motors and use Cobalts, despite that meaning I have to cut some boards up to accommodate the depth of those beauties.

Phil

Well I tried, I really did and it made b all difference. So I have taken some pics of the points and the motor wiring.

Checked:

no dry joints AFAICS;

power either side of the cross over;

point wiring as per Peco booklet (but that does not show a cross-over only a crossing;

motors actually work;

points actually work;

loco actually works.

Cant test the switches as I don't know how to do that.

 

So here are some pics of the points and the motor wiring. If anyone can spot a fatal blunder please tell me. If anyone can trace the point wiring and see what's wrong if anything, that would be great. The motors work, it's the three wires coming out of the switch that must be co*k eyed. 

Having taken the whole thing to bits I have done just one thing and that is to remove the dropper parts of the stock rail added 'bridge wires' as per Peco (and others) modification as they don't seem to make any difference at all. The bridge wires joining the stock rails are still in situ. The little Peco wires have been cut on both points so it's not that. Each point shows the feed wires at the end and the frog wire (green).

Also, having taken the whole unit/pod apart I am tempted, as I said before, to rethink the whole thing.

For example, if I left the points unmodified and just hand operated (there are only a couple of occasions where a cross-over is required) them would I still need to switch the polarity (and if I do I'd use a Juicer source)?

Apologies for again appearing to be totally lacking in any understanding and it's only a bl00dy cross-over FGS.

Phil

 

Many thanks again.

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Mallard60022

[colin penfold]

_{I have found one of these very useful Phil  http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-105621/tt1-track-tester}

 

_{Very handy as it changes colour if the polarity changes}

 

_{I suspect that you may have the two frogs behaving together, rather than behaving opposite as Peter described above. The simple way to try is to switch the red and black feeds into one of the PL13s to be the opposite to as they are now}

[Mallard60022]

_{I have found one of these very useful Phil  http://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-105621/tt1-track-tester}

 

_{Very handy as it changes colour if the polarity changes}

 

_{I suspect that you may have the two frogs behaving together, rather than behaving opposite as Peter described above. The simple way to try is to switch the red and black feeds into one of the PL13s to be the opposite to as they are now}

Thanks Colin I have ordered one of those as it will be useful all over the layout.

Thank you.

I though I had tried reversing the red and black of one of the P13s this afternoon but I could try again if nobody can see a big mistake elsewhere.

Cheers buddy.

P

Edited April 6, 2016 by Mallard60022

[john dew]

Good Morning Phil

 

This is your Canadian Lurker calling.

 

When I started my DCC layout 8 years ago I was a total, absolute novice.......I dont claim to be an expert now.....ohms and amps are still a mystery to me.......I have numerous Multimeters which I still cant get to work.......but I am able to identify the, now happily, occasional fault using a rrampmeter

 

http://tonystrains.com/product-category/products/ddc-current-measuring-meters/

 

 Its made in the US but I believe there are UK suppliers. Its a brilliant tool for people like you (I suspect) and me. Dont worry about all the fancy information you can get......the key thing is the ability to get an instant read out enabling you by a process of elimination to quickly determine which feed is suspect.

 

While I am in preaching mode.......when you set up your DCC system will you be installing a circuit breaker? Its undoubtedly the best insurance policy I ever bought.

 

Kind Regards from a damp Vancouver

 

John