Ready-to-lay OO Track and Pointwork - moving towards production

[Clive Mortimore]

Good Luck Joseph.

 

I am looking forward to seeing the prototypes.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks, Clive. I'm probably going to need a bit of luck on this!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I will post this here and then try to post a link on GrKing's more recent thread on the same subject.

 

I am now in a position to pay for CAD work to be done to develop the first items in a range of OO pointwork. Once these have been produced as prototypes by way of 3D printing and we have been able to assess the costing of other aspects (e.g. machining of blades, fabrication of crossings), we should be in a position to commission tooling for injection moulding. That may need further finance by way of crowdfunding but I don't think it sensible or fair to start the crowdfunding until people have a much clearer understanding of what the product will look like. The crowdfunding proposal will also set out the business plan, including distribution.

 

The key technical aspects, derived from comments on both threads, will be:

a. compatibility with modern ready-to-run OO locos and rolling stock;

b. appropriately sized sleepering on both plain track and pointwork;

c. compatibility with DCC;

d. code 75 bullhead rail;

e. switches made from rail and not hinged.

 

The first phase launch would include:

#6 turnouts (L & R)

#6 crossovers (L & R)

#6 diamond crossing - straight for trailing lead to goods yard

#6 single slip

Sleeper base moulded in 60' panels (or 2 half panels)

 

The second phase will include:

#8 turnouts (L & R)

#8 crossovers (L & R)

#8 double-junctions (L & R) - which as some will guess involves curved diamonds

#6 double slip

 

I still have a "day job" so I will try not to be unrealistic as to timescale. With a following wind, I would hope to have the prototypes available in late Spring with a view to launch in Autumn.

 

I should add that I would expect most of the above to be available both as kits and ready-to-lay. As things move on, it may be that the more "exotic" items will be kit only as they appeal to a smaller market.

 

As the turnouts will come in two parts, crossing module + switch module, the easiest way to allow folks to create trap/catch points will be to sell a switch module in kit form.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Well done Joseph! I shall certainly buy some!

 

I was interested to see you are planning on building the track in modules, have you seen Lima Nova track?  I've never seen it in person, but it used the modular approach to allow some really key track formations to be assembled, including scissors within the 6 foot leading to slips, which would be something Peco can't offer.  I've attached some pictures I found on the net which explain much better than I can.  I may have posted these previously, as the track threads seem to have been going for ever!

 

 

.

 

 

[hayfield]

I will post this here and then try to post a link on GrKing's more recent thread on the same subject.

 

I am now in a position to pay for CAD work to be done to develop the first items in a range of OO pointwork. Once these have been produced as prototypes by way of 3D printing and we have been able to assess the costing of other aspects (e.g. machining of blades, fabrication of crossings), we should be in a position to commission tooling for injection moulding. That may need further finance by way of crowdfunding but I don't think it sensible or fair to start the crowdfunding until people have a much clearer understanding of what the product will look like. The crowdfunding proposal will also set out the business plan, including distribution.

 

The key technical aspects, derived from comments on both threads, will be:

a. compatibility with modern ready-to-run OO locos and rolling stock;

b. appropriately sized sleepering on both plain track and pointwork;

c. compatibility with DCC;

d. code 75 bullhead rail;

e. switches made from rail and not hinged.

 

The first phase launch would include:

#6 turnouts (L & R)

#6 crossovers (L & R)

#6 diamond crossing - straight for trailing lead to goods yard

#6 single slip

Sleeper base moulded in 60' panels (or 2 half panels)

 

The second phase will include:

#8 turnouts (L & R)

#8 crossovers (L & R)

#8 double-junctions (L & R) - which as some will guess involves curved diamonds

#6 double slip

 

I still have a "day job" so I will try not to be unrealistic as to timescale. With a following wind, I would hope to have the prototypes available in late Spring with a view to launch in Autumn.

 

 

Joseph

 

What a super course of action, whilst I do accept it is early days AndyID has proved this method works, next is to get something printed with a view of perhaps supplying the bases which may produce an income stream to provide ready built items

 

A big well done       

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well done Joseph! I shall certainly buy some!

 

I was interested to see you are planning on building the track in modules, have you seen Lima Nova track?  I've never seen it in person, but it used the modular approach to allow some really key track formations to be assembled, including scissors within the 6 foot leading to slips, which would be something Peco can't offer.  I've attached some pictures I found on the net which explain much better than I can.  I may have posted these previously, as the track threads seem to have been going for ever!

 

post-238-0-55262100-1353682177.jpg

 

.post-238-0-00862400-1353681459.jpg

 

post-238-0-37426000-1353681445.jpg

 

post-238-0-55546600-1353681429.jpg

 

Yes, you posted these before and I have acknowledged your contribution.

 

They came into production about the time that I went into model railway retailing and were always of interest. Sadly rather expensive at the time and curiously always sold in pairs.  So it did not take off. About the time that RocoLine came out too which was a good system.

 

And you are right, it has been going on "for ever", a lot of key posts were two years ago. Where has that time gone? I have never lost my interest in this but been through a bit of a tough time financially since then.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Joseph

 

What a super course of action, whilst I do accept it is early days AndyID has proved this method works, next is to get something printed with a view of perhaps supplying the bases which may produce an income stream to provide ready built items

 

A big well done       

 

I think that 3D printing will have a part to play beyond the initial prototyping. It will be useful to allow compatible but made-to-measure add-ons to the main range.

 

But to get to a reasonable price, injection moulding has to be the way for the mainstream products.

[Adams442T]

Have you thought, Joseph, of a crowd funded approach?  It may well be something you have discounted, but it does have some advantages.  Certainly in the 'cycling world', which is another of my interests, several schemes have been successfully started in this way.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Have you thought, Joseph, of a crowd funded approach?  It may well be something you have discounted, but it does have some advantages.  Certainly in the 'cycling world', which is another of my interests, several schemes have been successfully started in this way.

Post #1425, line 4. As explained there, I think it better to do the initial prototyping first and have something to show people before going to crowdfunding. 3D printing makes that a viable option.

[Jeff Smith]

Joseph - this is actually in response to your post #1428 but for some reason the 'Reply quoting this post' doesn't work....

 

Turnouts in two parts suggests a similar arrangement to the SMP plastic based 36" radius point kit.  If I remember correctly the 2 base sections are basically held in alignment by the 2 stock rails threaded through the chairs - there may be a plastic joint but I can't remember.  Your smallest, #6, would be approx. 48" so fit neatly as the next larger radius.....

 

You don't mention in your spec but I assume these would be live-frog? 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Joseph - this is actually in response to your post #1428 but for some reason the 'Reply quoting this post' doesn't work....

 

Turnouts in two parts suggests a similar arrangement to the SMP plastic based 36" radius point kit.  If I remember correctly the 2 base sections are basically held in alignment by the 2 stock rails threaded through the chairs - there may be a plastic joint but I can't remember.  Your smallest, #6, would be approx. 48" so fit neatly as the next larger radius.....

 

You don't mention in your spec but I assume these would be live-frog? 

 

I have not seen a recently manufactured SMP kit but back in the day there were round lugs that clipped into a hole on the second part.

 

In the outline specification, I may not have made it clear enough. But by DCC compatible, I meant to imply metal crossing with dropper wire for polarity switching. So yes, "live frog".

[Anglian]

Joseph,

This is very exciting news and I very much look forward to seeing images of the first engineering samples. I think you are entirely right that folks need to be able to see what it is they might be committing to buy before going down the Kickstarter route. Perhaps you've already considered this but once you have those crucial 3D printed samples it may well be worth visiting as many shows as possible so that your potential customers can see and handle the product prototypes.

 

I've not read this whole thread having come via the link to it you provided elsewhere on the forum but at this point do you have an estimated price that you are aiming for? Finally if there were a phase three could a three way point be a possible addition to the range?

Edited December 24, 2015 by Anglian

[Joseph_Pestell]

Joseph,

This is very exciting news and I very much look forward to seeing images of the first engineering samples. I think you are entirely right that folks need to be able to see what it is they might be committing to buy before going down the Kickstarter route. Perhaps you've already considered this but once you have those crucial 3D printed samples it may well be worth visiting as many shows as possible so that your potential customers can see and handle the product prototypes.

 

I've not read this whole thread having come via the link to it you provided elsewhere on the forum but at this point do you have an estimated price that you are aiming for? Finally if there were a phase three could a three way point be a possible addition to the range?

 

Visiting shows will certainly be part of the process. But I can't do too many as I have existing work commitments on Saturdays and sometimes on Sundays too.

 

On pricing, it seems likely that it would be a bit more than Peco 75 so about the same as Peco 83. It depends to some extent not just on production costs but on the distribution method.

 

I do think that a 3-way point is quite an important item to include but it is much more complicated and does not share much by way of components with other pointwork. So that will be some way off.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Joseph_Pestell

[Buhar]

Good luck with this Joseph.  However, I do wonder if it might be wise to wait to see what DCC Concepts come up with as Legacy RTR.  If it's got unappealing sleeper spacing, huge check rail gaps or is very expensive, then you could still be onto something.  But if they crack the nut, I'm not sure two versions can be commercial.  I don't know if Ally Pally might be a significant date to find out their progress.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm sure that we can rely on the guys from DCC Concepts to bring out a good product without any of the faults you mention.

[martin_wynne]

I do wonder if it might be wise to wait to see what DCC Concepts come up with as Legacy RTR.

 

DCC Concepts Legacy track templates are online. It is very likely that the ready-made track will correspond.

 

(These are large files, slow to load, can be zoomed-in for high-detail):

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-A5.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B6.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B7.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B8.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B9.pdf

 

Notes:

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-a5

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b6

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b7

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b8

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b9

 

Martin.

[Pacific231G]

DCC Concepts Legacy track templates are online. It is very likely that the ready-made track will correspond.

 

(These are large files, slow to load, can be zoomed-in for high-detail):

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-A5.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B6.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B7.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B8.pdf

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/resources/PDFs/010-Product-Related/110-Track-and-Track-Making/M-Legacy-Track-Template-Turnout-B9.pdf

 

Notes:

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-a5

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b6

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b7

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b8

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/vamr/legacy-track-template-turnout-b9

 

Martin.

Thanks very much for this Martin.

But in their notes "turnout motors" ??

Edited December 26, 2015 by Pacific231G

[Phatbob]

Joseph,
This is great news.    Good luck with this venture. 
Just one question that's not currently answered in your specifications as I understand them;
What track-spacing are you using for your crossovers?  (In simple terms, how far apart will parallel tracks be?)
One of my "issues" with current proprietary H0 based systems is that the tracks are far too far apart.
Thanks and a happy new year to you and yours.

[Edwardian]

I have come to this late in the day, and confess that I have not read all 58 pages.

 

I think this is a commendable and much needed venture.  I think the matters set out in your 21 December post would be a great start.

 

I would be a customer for the following reasons:

• Modelling 4mm involves many compromises; curve radii, compression of station/platform lengths etc.  With cosmetically better finescale track well ballasted and finished, the narrower than scale tracks are among the least of the compromises.

• With deference to those who like track or point construction, and accepting them to be right when they say it's not as hard as all that and enjoyable once you get into the swing, it is, nevertheless, not one of the many aspects of the hobby to which I would choose to devote a high proportion of my rather limited time.  It follows that the C&L policy, to encourage modellers to take up turn-out construction is not persuasive. 

• Ready made OO track-work to code 75 would be a boon and fill a real gap.  I feel it little short of cheeky the way Peco have continued to foist their one-size fits no-one HO trackage on the UK market.  One might have expected them to have taken the lead in developing better UK outline OO track.  Great praise and riches to whoever fills their place.

Of course, as a Great Western fan, there is no-one producing even flexi-track with 2-bolt chairs.

 

How completely uneconomical would be a 2-bolt chair option?!?

[Mike Storey]

Joseph - you may find it useful (if not already done) to discuss crowd-funding issues with DJM Dave, who has commented on this recently, albeit for loco/MU models.

[Junctionmad]

I think this would be a very suitable kickstater project , Ive been involved in  contributing to  an essentially crowd sourced wagon project , and is been implemented via DJM, its surprising what can be raised from a relatively small group of people 

 

I wouydl say that merely taking the project to the stage of a good set of scaleable 3D drawings might be enough to get people to " invest" , I know I would 

 

dave

 

I wish it the best of luck

Edited January 21, 2016 by Junctionmad

[Mike Storey]

Joseph - given the announcement made by Peco at Nuremburg (and recently by C&L) on new 00-sleeper spacing, bullhead plain track (with turnouts to follow, maybe), will you continue progressing this?

[mezzoman253]

Joseph - given the announcement made by Peco at Nuremburg (and recently by C&L) on new 00-sleeper spacing, bullhead plain track (with turnouts to follow, maybe), will you continue progressing this?

See link http://www.pecopublications.co.uk/peco-anounces-2016-new-items-programme.html

 

HTH

 

Rob

[Colin_McLeod]

Now Peco have done it with plain track it is up to modellers to put their money where their mouth had been for years and actually buy the stuff. Peco have stated that if the uptake is good then they will produce turnouts.

[Phatbob]

Joseph - given the announcement made by Peco at Nuremburg (and recently by C&L) on new 00-sleeper spacing, bullhead plain track (with turnouts to follow, maybe), will you continue progressing this?

My reading of the thread on the new PECO bullhead track is that it has scale H0 sleepers and sleeper spacing, not 00.  So we will still need these points to match SMP or C&L plain track?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Phatbob