GWML Electification

[Zomboid]

That of course is provided TfL don't get acceptance of their half-baked, utterly ill-considered, and not fully thought through plan to take over the Relief Lines east of Reading.

Don't beat around the bush, tell us what you really think

[Ron Ron Ron]

?...That of course is provided TfL don't get acceptance of their half-baked, utterly ill-considered, and not fully thought through plan to take over the Relief Lines east of Reading.

Mike, if I was a newcomer to this forum, I might think that comment comes across as a case of "sour grapes because your beloved western is being taken away". I sure it's not meant that way.

 

You have made some rather good points about why TfL's new plan would be a bad thing, but when you posted them on the London Reconnections site, they were (IMHO) mostly countered adequately.

The freight path issue is the big one and the only one I think may hold up TfL's plans for increasing their Crossrail frequencies.

 

Something I don't think has been discussed, is if the proposed 2 tph GWR semi-fasts work in the current Post-Crossrail plan, would they work if Crossrail were to run these services themselves as semi-fasts, but continuing into the central core?

 

Ron

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, if I was a newcomer to this forum, I might think that comment comes across as a case of "sour grapes because your beloved western is being taken away". I sure it's not meant that way.

 

You have made some rather good points about why TfL's new plan would be a bad thing, but when you posted them on the London Reconnections site, they were (IMHO) mostly countered adequately.

The freight path issue is the big one and the only one I think may hold up TfL's plans for increasing their Crossrail frequencies.

 

Something I don't think has been discussed, is if the proposed 2 tph GWR semi-fasts work in the current Post-Crossrail plan, would they work if Crossrail were to run these services themselves as semi-fasts, but continuing into the central core?

 

Ron

 

They might work if Crossrail were to run them but it depends on how they view their central core working and whether or not they would be prepared to run a semi-fast service - where they really don't seem to understand the issues.  And incidentally before I go any further I should make it clear that it doesn't matter whose trains are involved as I can travel on any of them,including TfL's, without any financial disadvantage as my perpetually renewing Oystercard will no doubt work as well as my other travel facilities

 

It might seem like sour grapes and in one respect it definitely is - I don't really see why people paying over £4,000 per annum for a season ticket into London from my part of the Thames Valley should be subjected to travel in a train which in passenger amenity terms winds the clock back nearly 60 years and which fails to comply worth ATOC guidelines for journeys of the length envisaged (and I'm talking simply about getting to Paddington).  Suburban trains without toilets ceased to run on the lines out of Paddington when the intended dmus arrived in 1959 (admittedly only with toilet access from the centre car at that time and until the sets were gangwayed).  Bench seats effectively went at the same time although far better seating didn't really arrive until the Turbos in the 1990s - now we see trains with sideways facing bench seats and to be honest I'm not sure quite what impact such seats will have on persons travelling at 100mph and looking out of the window opposite.  In other words the train design for Crossrail while no doubt adequate for short distance suburban work is hardly suited to a fast/semi-fast 30 mile journey and I'm very glad I don't have to earn more than £6,000 p.a. for the dubious pleasures of having to travel on them daily.

 

Now let's think of what happens in practice our last train from London is quite well used, particularly at weekends, mainly by older people (i.e older than teenage) and we are now being told that after a night out having a meal or a theatre visit with perhaps a drink at the interval they will have no access to a toilet from the time they pass Paddington until they get home - which even with a semi-fast train could be almost an hour later, even more on a stopper.  Apart from feeling sorry from them I also have considerable feelings for the carriage cleaners and what they might have to deal with because  can assure you from running a carriage cleaning depot in past times that when people have to go they will go wherever they can.  Forgetting for just one moment DDA compliance the plain fact is that a longer distance 21st century train without toilets is a disgrace  whoever runs it especially when most of the stations it will serve lost their toilet facilities years ago.

 

Also what I don't like is the fact that an operator who currently does its level best, at the highest level in its organisation, to keep in touch with what its passengers want and tries to address their problems and complaints in as positive a manner as it can is proposing to offer exactly the train service local people want in trains that (without most having sampled them) they want to travel in running to a proposed timetable which has been repeatedly applauded as offering what is wanted for off-peak travel is being usurped by some remote organisation which has only once bothered to send anyone to speak to local travellers and even then seemed to pay little heed to what they wanted but simply told them what they would get.  Quite honestly I seriously doubt if anybody in TfL has the faintest idea of what local travel needs are in this part of the Thames Valley and what people want of their train services - and the principal needs for travel towards London are speed/minimal journey times and decent trains to travel on.

 

If too the local operator, who knows the market, provides the branchline services what interest can they be expected to take if they are not running most of the trains into which the branches will connect?  Do TfL actually understand that as well as feeding eastwards on the mainline the branches also need to connect westwards to cope for existing, and hopefully growing, markets in that direction?  How exactly can a London centric organisation see itself as understanding the very significant commuting and off-peak traffic into Reading frequently involving people who go there to change onto long distant services?

 

I have stuck mainly to the commercial aspects because I doubt TfL really understand - in fact offering such a poor specimen of a train for outer-suburban travel I would say they definitely don't understand them.  I would perhaps be more accepting if they were to offer something as good as a 387 but it would need to be accompanied by a decent timetable and I doubt they seriously understand the commercial implications of that.

 

As far as the technical, track access, capacity capabilities, and timetabling implications - let alone current operations perturbation management and flexible use of infrastructure are concerned I honestly think that thee suggestion makes it very clear that they haven't got the first idea of how a mainline railway with capacity problems and ever widening speed bands operates.  The essential difference is that I have - I've been there and having been involved in the capacity planning working groups for the previous GWML iteration of Crossrail back in the 1990s I am well aware of some of the problems involved - and the very basic fact is that, however you organise things in terms of track ownership or who operates particular trains or a mixture of operators, there are always a number of constants in running a railway and the last thing you should ever do is split ownership of closely dependent heavily integrated infrastructure, especially multiple track routes; branch lines are one thing, main line routes are quite another(

[caradoc]

All your points are well made Stationmaster, but if I can focus on one in particular; I find it utterly astonishing in 2017 that any main line train operator is buying trains without toilet facilities; This shows beyond doubt that TfL view Crossrail as just another Underground line. Even for travel into London journey times make toilets a necessity, never mind travelling through from east of London to west and vice versa (and there are plenty of people who will prefer a through train, even if slower, than having to change once or twice). The Class 314s in Scotland do not have toilets, which results in people sometimes using the gangway between coaches to relieve themselves; Disgusting. I sincerely hope that Crossrail's operations are restricted to stopping services east of Maidenhead, unless they see the light and provide trains fit for the 21st century, rather than the 19th. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by caradoc

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....I sincerely hope that Crossrail's operations are restricted to stopping services east of Maidenhead....

 

I'm afraid the boat left a long time ago on that one.

 

 

 

Ron

[jim.snowdon]

All your points are well made Stationmaster, but if I can focus on one in particular; I find it utterly astonishing in 2017 that any main line train operator is buying trains without toilet facilities; This shows beyond doubt that TfL view Crossrail as just another Underground line. Even for travel into London journey times make toilets a necessity, never mind travelling through from east of London to west and vice versa (and there are plenty of people who will prefer a through train, even if slower, than having to change once or twice). The Class 314s in Scotland do not have toilets, which results in people sometimes using the gangway between coaches to relieve themselves; Disgusting. I sincerely hope that Crossrail's operations are restricted to stopping services east of Maidenhead, unless they see the light and provide trains fit for the 21st century, rather than the 19th. 

My understanding is that TfL's view of life is that it is cheaper to put toilets on the stations than on the trains, and still be compliant with the requirements of the DDA. In a way, they aren't the first, as SWT took the toilets out of the 455 stock when they refurbished the interiors, and I don't think the 315 stock on the Shenfield services ever had them. I would also suspect that TfL don't expect much custom in terms of passengers travelling from one side of London to the other - Crossrail, despite its title, is really two lines - Shenfield to Paddington and Canary Wharf/Abbey Wood to Maidenhead, overlapped in the middle, with only a very few through Maidenhead - Shenfield workings.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

So long as the toilets are actually provided on stations, and open when the station is open, it's a fairly sound plan... I believe that was the idea when southeastern introduced their 376s, but I don't know what actually happened.

Whatever way you look at it though, London to Maidenhead and Reading is an outer suburban service, not a tube line.

[Ron Ron Ron]

All of this discussion should be in the Crossrail topic and not this one (GWML Electrification).

[Red Baron]

Can we have the new Crossrail trains in the north and swap you a load of pacers and 150's with fully fitted sh177ers? 

[Budgie]

So long as the toilets are actually provided on stations, and open when the station is open, it's a fairly sound plan... I believe that was the idea when southeastern introduced their 376s, but I don't know what actually happened.

New Beckenham doesn't have any toilets to open, apart from a staff one that is. There is certainly nothing on the down platform.

[PenrithBeacon]

In the peak period super crush would you be able to get to the loos? Doubt it.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Noticed during my travels today that Platforms 2 and 7 are now fully wired at Reading.

 

The Down Main over the flyover has been fully wired from the Signal Gantry at the London end to around the point where the Festival line cross under the flyover. whilst the Up Main has the catenary wire installed from the country end to around half way.

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Hi,

 

Noticed during my travels today that Platforms 2 and 7 are now fully wired at Reading.

 

The Down Main over the flyover has been fully wired from the Signal Gantry at the London end to around the point where the Festival line cross under the flyover. whilst the Up Main has the catenary wire installed from the country end to around half way.

 

Simon

 

Is the Up Main catenary wire now parallel with the running rail head?  It looked more akin to gently rolling countryside (but more angular) last Saturday.

[Zomboid]

It's supposed to zig zag, to even out wear on the pantograph carbon strips.

 

Catenary wire and droppers up on platform 9 now, but no contact wire. Nothing on 10-12, but the rest of the platforms look done. Not the DC ones obviously.

[The Stationmaster]

It's supposed to zig zag, to even out wear on the pantograph carbon strips.

 

Catenary wire and droppers up on platform 9 now, but no contact wire. Nothing on 10-12, but the rest of the platforms look done. Not the DC ones obviously.

 

I realise, and have long known, that the catenary zixzags in plan view.  But it's not supposed to zigzag when looking at it in side on elevation, i.e. vertically, as that can have an interesting effect on pantographs - especially if it zags (or is it zigs?) a bit too far upwards and the pan overheight sensor kicks in and lowers the pan.

 

As they rush through doing all these platform lines I wonder if they'll go back and finish No.15?  Some temporary lash-ups were left in place west of Scours Lane when the catenary was energised but they were insulated and didn't affect the rubbing surface of the contact wire.

[St. Simon]

Is the Up Main catenary wire now parallel with the running rail head?  It looked more akin to gently rolling countryside (but more angular) last Saturday.

 

I don't know I'm afraid, it's quite hard to tell when you rammed into a turbo running at 60mph!

 

Simon

[The Stationmaster]

Noted today that all running lines immediately east of Scours Lane now appear to be wired for at least one section, with one section on each line up onto the flyover at the west end.  Earth wire present on the Festival Line

[Zomboid]

I didn't realise the zigzag you were referring to was in the vertical plane. I'm no OLE engineer, but you certainly don't see many installations like that.

The horizontal stagger seems quite pronounced when looking at it from the transfer deck, too, but I expect that's because the view is foreshortened a bit and I'm not used to seeing OLE from that viewpoint.

[Banger Blue]

Energisation notice out (again) for Stockley Bridge - Maidenhead, now scheduled for Sun 26th March.

 

This coming Monday & Wednesday there will be daytime 387 driver training runs between Reading TCD & Didcot. This is the first time these paths will have been utilised despite having been in the system for a good few months.

 

Currently at Reading TCD is 387134, 136, 140 & 144.

 

Edit for correct date!

Edited March 17, 2017 by Banger Blue

[DY444]

My understanding is that TfL's view of life is that it is cheaper to put toilets on the stations than on the trains, and still be compliant with the requirements of the DDA. In a way, they aren't the first, as SWT took the toilets out of the 455 stock when they refurbished the interiors, and I don't think the 315 stock on the Shenfield services ever had them. I would also suspect that TfL don't expect much custom in terms of passengers travelling from one side of London to the other - Crossrail, despite its title, is really two lines - Shenfield to Paddington and Canary Wharf/Abbey Wood to Maidenhead, overlapped in the middle, with only a very few through Maidenhead - Shenfield workings.

 

Jim

 

 

SWT did not take the toilets out of the 455s when they were refurbished because there were none to take out.  The 455s have never had toilets.

[Edwin_m]

Energisation notice out (again) for Stockley Bridge - Maidenhead, now scheduled for Sun 27th March.

27th is a Monday.  Hope this doesn't mean energisation has been postponed to 2022! 

[Banger Blue]

27th is a Monday.  Hope this doesn't mean energisation has been postponed to 2022!

 

:lol:

 

Bloomin' fat fingers on the key pad! I even checked the calendar to make sure it was the right date.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Taken a few weeks ago.

Looking west at Reading.......

 

Photo 1

 

A couple of weeks earlier, looking to the east....

 

Photo 2

 

 

 

.

[The Stationmaster]

Twyford, 11 March  (click on picture to enlarge - shows more longer distance detail in some of them)

 

Relief Lines looking west

 

 

Gantry leg piercing the canopy, Up Relief

 

 

Relief Lines looking east

 

 

Main Lines looking east

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[HillsideDepot]

Thanks for the update Mike, but I'm not sure I like what I see; they certainly ain't pretty.

I'm not an engineer, but I would question the position of the mast in the second photo. Is it's location that critical that it couldn't have moved a few feet to either be in the dead space next to the bench, with the name board moved to the mast, or second best at the corner of the bicycle racks rather than in the middle of the walking route from the branch train to the Paddington train?