RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 29, 2015 A few interesting snippets emerging from a local rail user group. The Windsor & Henley branches are planned to go electric from December 2017 - presumably using 365 units but they might be 387s (work has already started on the Henley branch with preliminary digs for piling sites in hand at Twyford). Marlow will not be electrified - definitely identified as due to the short platform at Bourne End which cannot accommodate 4 car units, which will be the shortest length of electric unit on the Thames Valley. The notes say that the bay platform at West Ealing will be reopened for Greenford branch trains - this seems a bit odd as I can't trace West Ealing ever having a branch platform for Greenford trains so presumably it is the milk dock. There was also mention of using D78 units on the Greenford service so it looks like someone might be interested in them! Reading - Basingstoke electrified in 2018, Reading Green Park new station now planned to open that year. (Oxford - Banbury not in this control period) Hitachi AT 300s for the West of England likely to be built in Japan 'due to lack of capacity in the UK' ( I don't recall hearing this previously - perhaps the chap who wrote the notes misheard or I missed it?) FGW dark green livery confirmed I am sure that it is the Milk Dock at West Ealing which they plan to turn into a bay platform. SoS Transport made some very scathing comments about the D78 conversion project so it looks as though that may get killed at birth. On our supposedly privatised railway, Government specifies what rolling stock each operator gets to use (hence the fiasco of the whole IEP/SET programme). I think that there will be political uproar if the SET are all built in Japan rather than at Newton Aycliffe. But the Scottish units were not on the programme at the time the SET contract was awarded to Hitachi. Still, I seem to recall reading that Newton Aycliffe does have the capacity to do both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 The SETs are being built in England, the order (if it's made) for AT300s is additional, and with both of those and the Scottish EMUs potentially needing building at the same time I can see they might need to do that... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Hitachi AT 300s for the West of England likely to be built in Japan 'due to lack of capacity in the UK' ( I don't recall hearing this previously - perhaps the chap who wrote the notes misheard or I missed it?) It was stated at the time of the "AT300" announcement that these additional trains would be built in Japan and not at Newton Aycliffe. http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/03/23/hitachi-rail-europe-named-as-firstgroup-preferred-supplier-for-at300s Edited April 29, 2015 by Oakydoke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 OK, I've got it now. These AT300s are additional fleet. Basically the same as SET (which will have some operational/maintenance advantages) but with some modifications for West of England work. Having more hybrids seems an expensive solution. And 5-car sets looks like a strange option. Perhaps trains splitting at Exeter and/or Plymouth but it means having two lots of catering provision and, presumably therefore, trolley catering only on those trains. The 9-car sets presumably still with proper catering and restricted to certain prime services. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 OK, I've got it now. These AT300s are additional fleet. Basically the same as SET (which will have some operational/maintenance advantages) but with some modifications for West of England work. Having more hybrids seems an expensive solution. And 5-car sets looks like a strange option. Perhaps trains splitting at Exeter and/or Plymouth but it means having two lots of catering provision and, presumably therefore, trolley catering only on those trains. The 9-car sets presumably still with proper catering and restricted to certain prime services. Yep, they are FGW's proposed fleet instead of further life-extending HST's for the West Country services. Think we've discussed it somewhere else on here, but it's the other way round apparently. The 9s are going to be doing a regular hourly semi-fast Exeter to London service (I still presume picking up some or all of the stations set to suffer by being cut off by the suburban electrification only going to Newbury) the 5s will run as 10s, I think we worked out also hourly, running fast between Reading and Taunton, with 5 cars running beyond Plymouth to Penzance every other hour. Whilst the basic setup seems to be roughly the same as a 5 car bi-mode SET they will have bigger fuel tanks as they will be running on diesel for more of the time, and (from my brief scan of the current Modern Railways) differently set up engine software will result in more available power than the standard SET setup (which would normally run with it's engines self de-rated to roughly the same power to weight ratio as an HST) over the Devon banks. Whilst I agree having hybrids for just Newbury to London seems a bit of a waste at first glance, but I guess it does increase commonality with the rest of the fleet and probably makes it easier to path with like fleets on the busy bit from Reading in. And if we do get more wires eventually then no need to reconfigure the trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2015 Yep, they are FGW's proposed fleet instead of further life-extending HST's for the West Country services. Think we've discussed it somewhere else on here, but it's the other way round apparently. The 9s are going to be doing a regular hourly semi-fast Exeter to London service (I still presume picking up some or all of the stations set to suffer by being cut off by the suburban electrification only going to Newbury) the 5s will run as 10s, I think we worked out also hourly, running fast between Reading and Taunton, with 5 cars running beyond Plymouth to Penzance every other hour. Whilst the basic setup seems to be roughly the same as a 5 car bi-mode SET they will have bigger fuel tanks as they will be running on diesel for more of the time, and (from my brief scan of the current Modern Railways) differently set up engine software will result in more available power than the standard SET setup (which would normally run with it's engines self de-rated to roughly the same power to weight ratio as an HST) over the Devon banks. Whilst I agree having hybrids for just Newbury to London seems a bit of a waste at first glance, but I guess it does increase commonality with the rest of the fleet and probably makes it easier to path with like fleets on the busy bit from Reading in. And if we do get more wires eventually then no need to reconfigure the trains. According to the recent report I have seen from the passenger user group the AT300s are claimed to be faster than SET. Whether someone misunderstood 'more powerful' or whether they will have better acceleration rather than higher top speed (seems more likely?) is something of an open question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 The trains being described here as an AT300 is also a SET and all SET's are AT300's. It would have been easier to have acquired a TOPS classification before announcing the order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCML100 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 FGW Green livery for the IEP's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 According to the recent report I have seen from the passenger user group the AT300s are claimed to be faster than SET. Whether someone misunderstood 'more powerful' or whether they will have better acceleration rather than higher top speed (seems more likely?) is something of an open question. Faster over the route maybe? Can't see them being faster (as in top speed) as that makes no sense linked to the route they are being bought for! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Faster over the route maybe? Can't see them being faster (as in top speed) as that makes no sense linked to the route they are being bought for! Which is interesting as I've read that the extra FGW AT300s will only be max speed 100MPH on Diesel mode. It's also now apparently be due to be announced that the additional AT300s will also be working on the Cotswold Line as well as the South Western services too. FGW Green livery for the IEP's? Yes. I'll probably do a bigger post on this tomorrow, but the rebranding of FGW is due to take place from the summer ahead the major revealing in September. Everything to eventually go Green - Turbos & 150s currently under overhaul will have their paint switched to Green from Blue, all IEPs to be delivered in Green, Night Riviera, 158s to follow 150s, 387s will be reliveried before their arrival on the GW while the GW batch will be Green from the start. And HSTs, subject to a business case also to be vinyled into green as well, no doubt expect the sets due to head off to Abellio ScotRail. All of which I'm actually rather sorry to see go, I've come to strongly like the Smart Simple effectiveness of Dynamic Lines on the HSTs and Plain Blue on the Sprinters, one of the finest liveries since privatisation and I feel some of the best rolling stock refurbishments in the country (Compare a FGW 153 to a Northern example, a 150/2 to say a ATW example, or a 143 to Northern's 144s for example and you will see how smart the FGW ones have been kept). I really cannot say I'm that keen on the new Green livery though, it just doesn't seem to carry that 'wow' factor that the Dynamic Lines does. Almost carrying the same level of dullness that GNERs first version did, stealth style and green. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 ... I really cannot say I'm that keen on the new Green livery though, it just doesn't seem to carry that 'wow' factor that the Dynamic Lines does. ... Tastes differ sharply! I think the current design looks tawdry and vulgar, like a shop designed to sell cheap fashion ware to impressionable teenagers, whereas the green - like the restrained and elegant original GNER design - looks in the images to be rather classy. Who knows if it'll still look good in the flesh. Thank goodness we don't all share the same taste! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 The trains being described here as an AT300 is also a SET and all SET's are AT300's. But these AT300's are not part of the IEP It would have been easier to have acquired a TOPS classification before announcing the order. Now where's the fun in that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 But these AT300's are not part of the IEP Indeed they are not. The difference is SET's ordered as part of the IEP and SET's ordered directly by FGW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) We can now just about get a taste of the future ''Green'' things to come, as 57605 has poked it's head out at Derby this week. https://www.flickr.com/photos/60628514@N02/17258308895/ Not quite Brunswick green, almost Southern Green than anything GWR... Edited May 1, 2015 by surfsup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted May 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Not quite Brunswick green, almost Southern Green than anything GWR... Revenge is sweet ;-) I mean after all those years being different, the GWR is now getting electrification (which the LBSCR early fans of), portion working (welcome to confused comuters when reverse splits / attachments happen) and trains painted in a green very similar to good old Southern green. Edited May 1, 2015 by phil-b259 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium HillsideDepot Posted May 1, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2015 It rather reminds me of the "wrong" green which one of the GWR150 47s was initially painted (47484, possibly). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2015 We can now just about get a taste of the future ''Green'' things to come, as 57605 has poked it's head out at Derby this week. https://www.flickr.com/photos/60628514@N02/17258308895/ Not quite Brunswick green, almost Southern Green than anything GWR... Brunswick Green is a BR-era concoction. Pre nationalisation, it was mid chrome green for GW locomotives. Yes, there is a difference between Brunswick & Mid Chrome. Mid Chrome is slightly more metallic in hue. Hope this helps. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfsup Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 First albeit unfinished Mk3 Sleeper has also appeared tonight too. Not particularly inspiring - not sure why it's gained a diagonal matt band on it either. https://www.flickr.com/photos/66024/17148417828/in/photolist-s8m8bm-oSTTWq-qSDSqd-qg8mBe/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisman56 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 First albeit unfinished Mk3 Sleeper has also appeared tonight too. Not particularly inspiring - not sure why it's gained a diagonal matt band on it either. https://www.flickr.com/photos/66024/17148417828/in/photolist-s8m8bm-oSTTWq-qSDSqd-qg8mBe/ Probably the worst rolling stock photo I've ever seen... not wholly the fault of the photographer. Too much glare and reflection of other things to get a meaningful stab at deciphering a true colour of the bodyside. Agree that's a strange matt stripe though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 The renders for the proposed AT300s show the final result, the matt strip presumably gaining the GWR logo in due course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2015 The renders for the proposed AT300s show the final result, the matt strip presumably gaining the GWR logo in due course. Interestingly it doesn't mention their maximum speed - but 'more powerful'. might at least suggest that it ought to be 125mph (and at least 110mph) because if it is no more than 100mph on diesel that means all the West of England service will have to be decelerated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 How much of the line west of Newbury is over 100mph? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 From memory bits of the B&H are 110? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 From memory bits of the B&H are 110? On another forum, they worked out the time loss on the stretches above 100mph, accounted for a minute or two in total, offset by the acceleration and deceleration to max speed. Easily outweighed by the improved running times under the wired section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2015 How much of the line west of Newbury is over 100mph? It is rather more complicated than that. At the moment an HST with a maximum speed of 125mph has plenty of power in hand to cater for changes in speed profile especially up to around 100mph. If maximum speed is (reduced to) say, 100mph on the AT300 then it loses two things - the first is the inability to run faster so it can'y achieve line speed over the 6 miles of 110mph line west of Savernake, the 8/9 miles west of Woodborough and the 23 miles between Castle Cary and Athelney - they become simple losses of running time. But far more criticlal, especially on the B&H, at Castle Cary and beyond Cowley Bridge Junction are the impact of speed profile changes where the sheer power of an HST allows acceleration to the higher line speed (or back to the higher line speed) far more quickly than with a less powerful train, especially one running at near maximum speed. Thus recovering from a short 90mph section back to 100 is nothing for an HST - it is working well short of maximum performance. But if the train is at/near its maximum performance/power output it won't regain speed as quickly and it will lose time. The switchback speed profile west of Cowley Bridge Jcn might also present problems - here the HST is working well within its available power and speed recovery is quick, a train with lower maximum speed will immediately be working nearer to its maximum although of course the gearing can play an important part. At the moment we just don't know enough beyond the fact that the AT300 will have greater diesel power than the SET but if we read across the 100mph top speed on diesel from the SET I have no doubt that West of England services will have to have time added compared with HST times. In some respects it increasingly looks as if the HST might represent the peak of performance for diesel powered long distance passenger trains in Britain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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