Titan Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Several posts back, it was said that the transition to diesel was very gradual. I’d argue the opposite. In 1955 I think there were five or six mainline diesels, and oodles of steam locos on BR. By 1967, no steamers, VoR excepted, and a whole stack of mainline diesels. And, deliveries didn’t start until, I think, 1959, so it was a very sharp transition. Kevin If it went from 100% steam to 100% diesel or electric in two years or less that would have been a sharp transition. From 1955 or even 1957 when the first diesels actually started to be delivered en mass to 1968 is a very long time indeed. A young boy who was in primary school could easily have grown up, got married and started a family in that time frame to try and put it in perspective... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2017 To reply to the original question, I think the term 'Modern Image' is outdated and ill-defined; to me it suggests any layout set in a post green diesel environment, while many current modellers were not even born in those days. 'Current Image' might be a bit better, for the current scene, but new terms need to be coined for blue diesel, large logo, sectorised, and so forth along with later incarnations. 'Pre (and Post) Privatisation' may have some credibility. Terms do go out of use within the hobby; who talks about 'crane shunting' these days except such antediluvians as me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2017 Even the privatised rail era isn't necessarily particularly modern now. Think about the technology you were using 20 years ago and what you use today, the last 20 years have seen a revolution in so many fields. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 If it went from 100% steam to 100% diesel or electric in two years or less that would have been a sharp transition. From 1955 or even 1957 when the first diesels actually started to be delivered en mass to 1968 is a very long time indeed. A young boy who was in primary school could easily have grown up, got married and started a family in that time frame to try and put it in perspective... On the other hand, Riddles originally intended for steam to be in use into the 1980s so compared to that, having all the steam gone by '68 (considering the last steam loco was made in 1960) is quite a sharp transition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Even the privatised rail era isn't necessarily particularly modern now. Think about the technology you were using 20 years ago and what you use today, the last 20 years have seen a revolution in so many fields. How many different liveries have HST and Mk iii's appeared in plus the 91's and MKiv's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2017 Can we please put "Modern Image" back in is box where it came from. This thread is 4 years old so why oh why was it re started. :scratchhead: Just sum up a layout like this, railway/region, location, and time period e.g. L&YR Liverpool to Southport line 1910. Cos this would have electric traction and it ain't "Modern Image". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 28, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2017 On the other hand, Riddles originally intended for steam to be in use into the 1980s so compared to that, having all the steam gone by '68 (considering the last steam loco was made in 1960) is quite a sharp transition. In the late 1930's engineers and executives at Alco and Baldwin seem to have genuinely believed that steam and diesel were complementary technologies and that the steam locomotive still had a long term future. The US railroads made the transition in roughly a decade after WW2, and it'd have been sooner than that if WW2 hadn't intervened. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 28, 2017 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2017 Modern Image definitive start date. That's it then, end of thread !!!!! Brit15 I have that magazine. If I ever have the space/time/money to build a permanent layout, the trackplan in that particular issue will provide a huge chunk of inspiration. Cheers,, Mick 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold wombatofludham Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2017 Mmm, an AL1, electric blue, the new Runcorn station, sex on four axles.Modern image? You're having a giraffe. That would have been taken when I was busy filling my nappies over 50 years ago... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2017 As we now seem to be adopting the continental epoch system the term 'Modern Image' is redundant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 (edited) Titan You need to get into the statistics to understand how sharp the change was http://www.bath.ac.uk/e-journals/jtep/pdf/Volume_1V_No_2_162-170.pdf Leave aside the task of organising traction changes, and the legal process of closing routes, that there was a 40% reduction in the labour force 1962-67 is a good example. 100 people being given a P45, every single day, for five years. It might have seemed like a long time to an eight year old, but to anyone who has ever tried to organise and deliver anything, except perhaps on a war footing, when all the rules change, it was blooming fast, and no wonder some if it was a bit botched. Personally, I find it hard to imagine how it could have been done quicker, without even more mistakes being made in the rush. Kevin Edited October 29, 2017 by Nearholmer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 I'm not adopting the "Continental epoch system". The phrase "modern image" is acceptable to me. I'm sure I'm in the minority but hey, I don't even get upset about "train" station! I think the real problem here is that everyone thinks differently and therefore there is no universal solution. I hadn't realised this thread was 4 years old when resurrected and I don't even remember posting on it back in 2013. For that reason, I think the thread and the argument will rumble on forever. Everyone can use whatever term they wish, and life will just go on. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 All these broad brush terms are rather useless really, and I include the epoch system in that. "Pre-group" for example, theoretically covers both 1922 and 1850. I think you'd find a few changes during that time! Actually (as I think has been pointed out) traction gets too much focus. Go to somewhere like Guide Bridge in 1969, and, traction and (in this case) signalling apart, you'd find a scene someone from the WW1 era would have recognised. It was still operated in much the same way and with the same track arrangement. The railways we have today (2017) would in almost every location, be totally unrecognisable to our WW1 individual. So I think location and date are the best description - if you feel you need one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2017 I find the 'epoch' system quite useless in modelling terms, since liveries overlapped to such a great extent especially in my period, the early 50s, but my local model shop, Lord and Butler's in Cardiff, uses it to display stock, which I think is a very good idea and saves me loads of time, especially for wagons. I would like to see a subdivision for post war big 4 liveries, though; these are applicable to my layout especially for wagons and mostly different from the large letter pre-war versions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Can we please put "Modern Image" back in is box where it came from. This thread is 4 years old so why oh why was it re started. Yep, although I can't get worked up about it. IMO the phrase is so antiquated that it's use is now redundant. In fact it says more about those who use it than its effectiveness in defining modern railways. It's simply no longer in vogue. Time to move on perhaps? G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2017 Titan You need to get into the statistics to understand how sharp the change was http://www.bath.ac.uk/e-journals/jtep/pdf/Volume_1V_No_2_162-170.pdf Leave aside the task of organising traction changes, and the legal process of closing routes, that there was a 40% reduction in the labour force 1962-67 is a good example. 100 people being given a P45, every single day, for five years. It might have seemed like a long time to an eight year old, but to anyone who has ever tried to organise and deliver anything, except perhaps on a war footing, when all the rules change, it was blooming fast, and no wonder some if it was a bit botched. Personally, I find it hard to imagine how it could have been done quicker, without even more mistakes being made in the rush. Kevin I think a lot of the reasons for the rather haphazard way the modernisation plan was implemented go back to a combination of WW2 and the lost decade that followed WW2 when what money the UK had (including a huge amount of Marshall plan aid) was spent on things other than rebuilding and modernisation. The diesel electric locomotive had demonstrated its potential before WW2 whilst electric traction was quite a mature technology. British companies were developing a range of traction types to supplant steam immediately following WW2 and following a reasonably logical development plan which was knocked on the head. A decade of development and product trials and experience building could have avoided a lot of the hideous waste and poor decisions of the modernisation plan (if not all). The steam locomotive was obsolete before WW2, never mind 1955. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2017 Mind you, we are seeing a similar reluctance to accept that the internal combustion engine has had its day and is in its own sunset phase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Mind you, we are seeing a similar reluctance to accept that the internal combustion engine has had its day and is in its own sunset phase. Replaced by steam, wind and water. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kernowtim Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Mind you, we are seeing a similar reluctance to accept that the internal combustion engine has had its day and is in its own sunset phase. Replaced by electric power, most of which is generated by boiling water to make steam.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Mind you, we are seeing a similar reluctance to accept that the internal combustion engine has had its day and is in its own sunset phase. A friend of mine was so impressed with his totally electric car he paid several million pounds* for a few years back. Right up to the point where he tried to visit his mother who lived 145 miles away. The car made it 112 miles. He then had to wait about 4 hours to top the batteries up just enough to get the rest of the way. How we laughed. Well, I did. I don't need a planet-killing V12 under the bonnet, but they'll have to take my internal combustion engine away from me kicking and screaming... Some of us embrace the future and others hold on to the past with a death grip. Each to their own and all that. * I may possibly have exaggerated a bit there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 29, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2017 Replaced by electric power, most of which is generated by boiling water to make steam.. I don't think it will. I think there is a long term future for nuclear power which uses steam to power turbines but I think the other forms of thermal steam generation are also pretty much obsolete. And rankine cycle high pressure steam plant used to generate electricity has virtually nothing in common with the Stephenson type locomotive beyond sharing water as the working fluid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Modern image - anything not requiring coal to move...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Modern image - anything not requiring coal to move...... I'm not sure what reaction you'd get if you modelled the Festiniog (sic) in 1850 and said it was Modern Image! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2017 Modern image - anything not requiring coal to move...... Like the electric trains use to. They needed something similar to the one I use to work at. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Replaced by electric power, most of which is generated by boiling water to make steam.. Not in the Netherlands where the NS recently boasted that all the trains now run on electricity from renewable sources Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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