Micro layout design help

[jhock]

Due to the fact out flat is going on the market soon I have had to shelve my current layout project, it will get resurrected when we move I have more space to play with.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68570-new-ho-layout-name-tbc/

 

In the mean time I am going to build myself a micro layout over the winter months to keep myself amused.

 

It has to fit in a cupboard so the space available is either 23' by 18' on 1 board or 9' by 46' on 2 boards, plus a fiddle yard.

 

Scale is HO

period is current

Any where in the US

It can also have a fiddle yard as that can stored with out fear of damage so can go behind the sofa.

 

Just mulling over what to do, little 2 track yard or much shorter 3 track yard, most likely an ingle nook, any thoughts?

[shortliner]

Okay - lets think this one through

1. What takes up the most space = turnouts

2. Can we do away with them = Yes

3. Can we use short cars = Yes 40' or less

4. can we use short locos = yes -Bachmann 40 or 70 tonners, Plymouth 6 wheel MDT (If we can get one!), Trackmobile. 0-4-0 dockside tank. or we can go "Old-fashioned Standard gauge logging" and use Shays, Climaxes, Dunkirks etc

5. Live or dead fogs = no problem if no points

6. Trackplans = Carls Scrapbook = More than you can shake a whole heap of sticks at - with and without turnouts http://www.carendt.com/ Additionally do you want urban  or countryfied - if urban look at " Toves suggestions for"Violet Alley" http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74941-violet-alley/

 

So we need to make a decision - do we go for a totally "pointless" layout - with a hidden traverser or a sector plate replacing the turnouts or do we want to have one or more turnouts actually on display? If you can start off by answering that question, we can start to make progress.  We also need to know what you have available in the way of locos or cars - and how much you are prepared to spend for "stock" etc?

[jhock]

Hi Shortliner,

 

Trying use all the bits I have already so:

 

Bachman 45 tonner

SW1500

SW1200

 

Lots of 50' box cars and flats

72' centre beam flat

Various hoppers

 

Track is Peco code 83, I have 2 No'5s a left and right.

 

Had a look at the space again I think I could get away with 30' by 12' plus fiddle.

 

Happy to have a crack at a sector plate but not too hot at wood work!

[shortliner]

I hope that is inches rather than feet!  

[jhock]

It is indeed!

 

Funny " and ' can change things so much!

 

A bit of testing has shown the maximum size is 28" by 12" plus fiddle yard.

[shortliner]

Right, taking the above - a 50' car (over couplers) is 8", and a sw1200/1500 (likewise) is 6.5" - Life is becoming dificult! A loco +3 is already 30.5", without any allowance for points (turnouts) or clearance between cars on adjacent tracks - My suggestion would be for a a collapsed inglenook (with a traverser on a second board)   of a 3,2,2 formation the traverser - to be able to operate properly should hold a loco + the holding capacity of the shortest siding - in this case 2 cars - giving an overall length of 30.5"+6.5"+16"= 53" = a small amount of clearance between the end of the sidings and the traverser, say a couple of inches , gives a length of 55" overall. If you are happy with simply having the siding not needing the loco to be able to get the loco in completely, with the 3 cars - you can loose a couple of inches - a suitable trackplan is here

www.carendt.com/microplans/pages/ go to Shelf switchers >traversers > 4th down although yours will be bigger, but it shows what I mean

- about the smallest space an Inglenook will fit into with 50' cars

 the trackplan immediately above it, Smithfield Street yard,  will also be a possibility, but track lengths will need adjusting for 50' cars - it was actually built in 3 sections that fasten together with case clips - see the photo

[jhock]

Cheers Shortliner,

 

Given my ineptitude with woodwork, I think it could work if I had one siding along the back fed by sector plate and 2 in the front with no. 5 switch also fed by the sector plate.

 

The siding along the back can accommodate 3 50' cars and the 2 in the front 2 50' cars.

 

I am going to give it go and see how it looks, something similar in the latest Model Railroader Hobbyist Magazine, but in O, in the same space! He has short cars and can fit 1 car in the front 2.

[shortliner]

See also Carls Scrapbook 97a and 98a - somewhere on RMweb is my version of the HO build that fits into "that Damn Box"

Edit to add  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44026-the-fiddlestick-switch-job/

[JWB]

While I understand the desire to use stock on hand, I do think UK modelers who want to build small North American layouts are adding to their difficulties by focusing on 50-foot boxcars, centerbeams, modern diesels, and so forth. The two Bachmann 0-6-0T steam locos now available are simply better models than the 44 or 70 ton, and they're a little over 4 inches long. Same goes for Accurail or Bowser 2-bay USRA or GLA hoppers. You could reduce needed length to around 60% by going that route, and you'd have something that wouldn't be just like everyone else has.

[jhock]

While I understand the desire to use stock on hand, I do think UK modelers who want to build small North American layouts are adding to their difficulties by focusing on 50-foot boxcars, centerbeams, modern diesels, and so forth. The two Bachmann 0-6-0T steam locos now available are simply better models than the 44 or 70 ton, and they're a little over 4 inches long. Same goes for Accurail or Bowser 2-bay USRA or GLA hoppers. You could reduce needed length to around 60% by going that route, and you'd have something that wouldn't be just like everyone else has.

'

 

I understand your point, and Shortliner suggested the same, but for me as I grew up with 80's and 90's American movies that's what's influenced me and that is why I stick to the period.

 

I will admit it is tempting to back date, there is something very appealing about 50's America, I mull it over.

[DelawareAndHudson]

I think one of the most important decisions to make before starting a layout is to figure out what it is that "grabs you" and hangs on.  It may not be the most interesting subject operationally or it might not be the easiest subject to adapt to a smaller space due to the size of the stock, but if the subject is what draws you back over and over again, THAT is probably the best choice that will help you maintain interest in the project.  Later, you may find that the advice and warnings turned out to be correct and your chosen subject isn't as interesting as you thought it might be.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Sometimes you just have to get something out of your system before you are ready to move on to a different railroad, location, or era.  Or you might find that it is still an interesting subject but it requires most space than a micro and you will continue to pursue it when you have a larger space again.

 

 

That said, I think I would have a difficult time with a micro.  I've looked at them for years on Carl's site and have been amazed at what folks accomplish.  I think the smallest I could go would be a narrow hollow core door, 12"x78".  I think it could be built in a way that you could stand it upright in a corner of a room out of the way when not in use.  Basically a boxed in layout with on the operating side open and for safety, a removable cover could be made for that side when the layout is stored.  When it's time to operate, just set it on the kitchen table or something else that can support it temporarily.  

 

 

Anyway, back to your micro.  What about building a small piece of a paper mill?  Not sure what kind of hoppers you have but there are a number of chemicals for a paper mill that can arrive in covered hoppers.  Cornstarch and kaolin clay are a couple.  Boxcars can haul finished paper out and other boxcars can bring in scrap/recycled paper or pulp.  I don't think the cars hauling recycled paper or pulp would be reused for finished paper, they likely wouldn't be clean enough.  If you have some tank cars, they are very common bringing chemicals into a paper mill.  

 

 

Another option could be a cereal plant.  Inbound grains in the covered hoppers and outbound breakfast cereal in the boxcars.  The Post plant in Battle Creek, Michigan can provide some good ideas for a cereal plant.

 

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

 

Jason Cook

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Jhock,

 

Are those dimensions "storage dimensions"
(layout must store in this space, but may be larger when operated)

 

or "operational dimensions"
(layout must not exceed these dimensions under any circumstances)???

 

I'd hope it's the former, in which case a "fold up" layout a la Jack's "Foldingway terminal"
(with a bit of height at each hinge to allow some scenery and structures)

could result in 12" x 30" x 12" 'box' which folds over to form a 12" x 60" x 6" "shelf layout",

 

and that 60" linear is a lot more useful than only 30"...

 

Alternatively, use Jack's "collapsing sectorplate" technqiue with a dbl-length "loco lift",
and you can have a 3:2:2 'nook a la "Chicago Fork" or Jack's "Dbl-loco-Lift" http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page83a/#1lift

 

Remember, a 3:2:2 'nook eats:

- 3 unit "lead"
- 2 unit "turnout to clearance"
(assuming a suitable turnout for the stock in question, a PECO Code 83 #5 eats 12" to clearance)
- 3 unit "long spur"

 

= 8 "units"
 

Figure on a 50' car being 8", and we're at

8 units x 8" = 64"

 

One of those "lead" lengths is the loco, so if we figure we're using your 45 tonner rather than a 50' GP,
and PECO Code 83 #5 turnouts
we'll fit within 60" linear...

 

Dump the "main turnout",
and shuffle the "lead" up 2x units in "sectorplate" form,

 

and we're down to 6 linear units (x 50' cars), or 48" (4' or 1200mm)
Fold that in half (hide the high-rise hinges under a highway overpass?),

 

or use the aforementioned "collapsible sectorplate" technique,

 

and we're down to a 3:2:2 'nook which can pack away into 12" x 24" x 12" tall...
(for the actual track geometry, check "Chicago Fork" http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page103a/#chicago-fork

http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page98a/index.html#ho-chicago

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2013-09-sep/layout-chicago-fork )

 

Hope this helps...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[shortliner]

For anyone who wants to follow the Profs "fold-it-in-half-up-and-over" idea, but doesn't want to have a bridge covering the hinges - here is a solution which works very well, and is not very difficult to make - the incredible Acme Vanishing Hinge

 

 

 

[jhock]

Thanks for the replys guys, all very useful.

 

To confirm the operating area is 28" by 12", plus the fiddle yard. The fiddle yard as sector plate can be as long as I need.

 

In completely understand that I could get more space by creating a layout that folds up but to be honest I am happy with what I have for 2 reasons.

 

1 I just don't like wood work ( I know I don't need to use wood but storage height is also an issue so using foam card is out as it needs some good depth in order to achieve the strength needed and an already had the wood to hand).

2 This is a little winter project to keep me going before a house move in the spring where I get loads more space to play with, so small is good as I might stand a half decent chance of getting it done (I know what I am like).

 

A 3.2.2 should do the job, I am going play around a bit as I might well drop the switch as suggested and use the sector plate as of scene switch.

 

The boards are nearly done, I will post pics a bit later.

 

Please don't misunderstand me as am really grateful for all the help.

 

Liking the suggestion about the corner of paper mill, I have some wood chip hopper that could be used, although I am not sure as they would be unloaded by a tippler, a little bit optimistic for a micro!

[298]

Steve1 built an interesting little layout called "Duncan's Mine" that basically had three tracks all fed from an off-scene sector plate:

 

http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page81/

 

But based on what you've mentioned so far, my mind wandered to my favourite "one day" project, the Blue Heron Mill on Oregon City, OR.

 

No apologies for posting this again:

 

 

Would it be possible to fit in certain elements, such as the grade crossing, street buildings, and the backdrop of a large mill....?

[5050]

For anyone who wants to follow the Profs "fold-it-in-half-up-and-over" idea, but doesn't want to have a bridge covering the hinges - here is a solution which works very well, and is not very difficult to make - the incredible Acme Vanishing Hinge

 

AcmeHinge.jpg

I used exactly that system (less the split-hinges) on my 'Lower Pandy' layout and can confirm that it works.  However, my inspiration came from an article in 'Model Railways' from the 70's by Cyril Freezer?  I adapted his version which used wood for everything by substituting pasting table hinges.  Perhaps he had plagiarised it from elsewhere.

[jhock]

I have been mulling this one over and fancy something a little different for the setting for this little micro/diorama.

 

How about short line railroad MOW yard and engine house?

 

I love the slightly run down feel some of the little short lines have. Operationally it's a little limited but give me chance to get lots of detail in small space.

 

Small engine house, bits of MOW stock, flats and such like.

 

What do think?

 

I have already built the boards, no track laid yet.

[dave1905]

I wouldn't think  there would be much switching at a MOW yard.  Especially on a shortline.   You get a couple gons of rail and boxcar of parts once or twice a year and that's that.

 

I would think a service track would be the ticket, especially with cassette storage.  Have one or two tracks for ready engines, one or two tracks for servicing (fuel, water, sand, lube oil) and maybe one track for inbound sand, oil, fuel.

 

You can have as many engines as your heart desires.  You bring in a consist, take it to the service track, service it, then move it to the ready track, maybe pick up a unit, maybe set out a unit, and finally it goes back out into the yard to protect a train.  You have a list of inbound consists and a list of outbound trains.  A service track foreman you have to decide which inbound set of power stands for which outbound train.  So maybe the set of SD70's have to set longer until the next manifest train, but the pair of GP's get turned out on the local next shift.  Every shift one set of switcher power comes in, is serviced and then goes back out the next shift change.

 

In NA practice the engine house itself is optional.  They are actually  boring since anything that goes into an engine house for work, won't move for 24-72 hours.  The ready tracks may turn over several times a day.

[Adrian Wintle]

Another option is that you get operations where covered hoppers are unloaded in a small building - approximately equivalent to the PikeStuff Small Enginehouse http://www.rixproducts.com/small_enginehouse_30_x_60.htm

 

In some cases this is a distance from the industry in question, saving having to model more than some pipework and maybe a wall, and avoiding having to model any complicated unloading facilities.

 

Examples:

Invista (ex-Celanese Fibres) plant, Bath, ON - currently in the process of being de-constucted.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=44.206754,-76.720515&spn=0.001565,0.002588&t=h&z=19

 

Osram-Sylvania lighting plant, Wellsboro, PA - served by the Wellsboro and Corning Railroad

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=41.748917,-77.286498&spn=0.001629,0.002588&t=h&z=19

 

Adrian