4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.

[Colin parks]

Well, I said the inner end footsteps had to go and on this motor coach at least - they have!

 

 

 

The new steps are etched nickel-silver ones courtesy of Howard (HAB). The steps now fit correctly on the corrugations and this now allows the lighting conduit to pass down behind them with the prototypical clearance as it should be. I am working on Howard's commode handles which have a double half-etched fold line so that the handles sit correctly against the coach side instead of the end being poked down a hole! The commode handles are etched I nickel-silver too and although they should be brass for my chosen era of the 4 SUB, the metal is much stronger than brass.

 

Colin

Edited December 11, 2013 by Colin parks

[Adam]

Those steps are a great improvement Colin. It will be interesting to see the commode handles add to the effect. Given the rumoured resurrection of an EM third rail layout (shown as a 'work in progress at Expo EM some twenty years ago; it has singularly failed to progress since) that dad is involved in, this topic has assumed increased significance! I fear that Bachmann EPBs and all sorts of unlikely loco-hauled stock will be the order of the day for some time yet, assuming we can make the thing work. There's no way I have the time at the minute to contemplate something like this... Chapeau.

Adam

Edited December 11, 2013 by Adam

[Enterprisingwestern]

JFC Colin, that is superb. Don't bother with the sides, the ends are impressive enough on their own!

 

Mike.

[5Bel]

Hi Colin,

 

Excellent work as always. The end steps really look the business. I had my doubts about the size of the NNK ones, they seem to be nearer the BR standard size. I can't wait to see the commode handles. I like the look of the pseudo composite, it is amazing the difference the lack of one compartment has on the look of the coach. Looking forward to seeing the unit in it's green coat. Once again excellent work.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Colin parks]

Those steps are a great improvement Colin. It will be interesting to see the commode handles add to the effect. Given the rumoured resurrection of an EM third rail layout (shown as a 'work in progress at Expo EM some twenty years ago; it has singularly failed to progress since) that dad is involved in, this topic has assumed increased significance! I fear that Bachmann EPBs and all sorts of unlikely loco-hauled stock will be the order of the day for some time yet, assuming we can make the thing work. There's no way I have the time at the minute to contemplate something like this... Chapeau.

Adam

Hi Adam,

 

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you could make a 4 SUB given your talents, but I must agree that time is needed for a task like this. Howard's etched steps have made a great improvement to the ends and I suspect his commode handles will look just the part once I have done all the bending.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

 

Excellent work as always. The end steps really look the business. I had my doubts about the size of the NNK ones, they seem to be nearer the BR standard size. I can't wait to see the commode handles. I like the look of the pseudo composite, it is amazing the difference the lack of one compartment has on the look of the coach. Looking forward to seeing the unit in it's green coat. Once again excellent work.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

Thanks Ian,

 

As I have said the commode handles are equally impressive, requiring two folds top and bottom to get an authentic shape. There are tiny holes through which 0.2mm dia. wire is passed and soldered to represent the bolt head fixing on the front and leaving 2mm behind for location into the coach side - gulp!

 

The pseudo-composite is rather unusual, although there were about thirty of them. I am having to think about the green livery rather more than I had expected to. It has occurred to me that the inner ends were most likely painted black, but some were painted green. Added to that, the shade became darker towards the end of the BR(S) 'green period' An educated guess is going to be needed.

 

The under frames are another issue, as the colour that EMUs had them painted is described as being some kind of dark brown until the early seventies. Perhaps a weathered track grime colour will be the answer.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[New Haven Neil]

Um, I know little of things Southern (but am loving this thread!) but wasn't it the blue units that had chocolate underframes?  I recall seeing those diesel things with underframes that colour 'back home' when in early blue.  I haven't ever seen a reference to that in green, I'd like to see one if you have it as I am embarking on converting myself to 3rd rail modelling!

[Colin parks]

Um, I know little of things Southern (but am loving this thread!) but wasn't it the blue units that had chocolate underframes?  I recall seeing those diesel things with underframes that colour 'back home' when in early blue.  I haven't ever seen a reference to that in green, I'd like to see one if you have it as I am embarking on converting myself to 3rd rail modelling!

Hi Neil,

 

You will some to love everything Southern, so good luck with your conversion to third rail. Don't let the horrendous length of time it takes me to build a unit put you off -there are plenty of excellent RTR models to be had!

 

Re. underframe colours, you would certainly have seen units in early blue liveries with brown underframes as to quote David brown: " From the early 1970's underframes and bogies reverted to black." (p. 182 Southern Electric Vol. I). The confusing part is that for about four years after the introduction of the Rail Blue livery, the underframes were painted in dark brown. Added to that david Brown states that one depot, namely Selhurst, continued to re-varnish (repaint) units in green until Dec. 1968!

 

This leaves the question of what shade of brown was used, although with weathering the exact shade is not so critical. The tricky bit is finding out what shade of green 4 SUB unit 4377 carried following its last repaint in that colour.

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Well, I said the inner end footsteps had to go and on this motor coach at least - they have!

 

 

Cracking job there Mr Parks!  I was not sure that such "to scale" bits would be buildable but you have proved that they are - very well done!  Should I put some more in the post... ???

 

Cheers,

[Colin parks]

Cracking job there Mr Parks!  I was not sure that such "to scale" bits would be buildable but you have proved that they are - very well done!  Should I put some more in the post... ???

 

Cheers,

Hi Howard,

 

Those steps are quite robust in nickel silver and I didn't even reinforce the folds with solder -they will be fine once super-glued into place. At present, what you see is just a push-fit, as the plugged holes from the previous steps still need to be smoothed down. It's rather heartening to have parts that match the drawing and fit perfectly on the corrugations (which are pitched at a scale 12" and not as per the drawings being used).

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

 

Re. underframe colours, you would certainly have seen units in early blue liveries with brown underframes as to quote David brown: " From the early 1970's underframes and bogies reverted to black." (p. 182 Southern Electric Vol. I). The confusing part is that for about four years after the introduction of the Rail Blue livery, the underframes were painted in dark brown. Added to that david Brown states that one depot, namely Selhurst, continued to re-varnish (repaint) units in green until Dec. 1968!

 

This leaves the question of what shade of brown was used, although with weathering the exact shade is not so critical. The tricky bit is finding out what shade of green 4 SUB unit 4377 carried following its last repaint in that colour.

 

Hello Colin,

 

I am "pretty certain" that from the introduction of the Blue liveries (in their variants) policy was determined centrally, rather than locally and it is my understanding that the blue livery included brown underframes from its introduction and it was a redish - mid chocolate shade. Not withstanding David Brown's comment, I am absolutely certain that the class 313s were painted with brown underframes when they were built at York in 1976-77. Equally, when these units received their first overhauls at Horwich in 1978, they re-appeared with bogies painted black.

 

But I am by no means convinced that "traditional" Southern Units were universally (if at all) turned out with brown underframes - though the Mk 1 units (CIGs, VEPs) turned out in blue / blue/grey when new definitely did. Now memory is a dangerous resource, but I am pretty sure that I remember newly painted BILs and CORs with blue bodies and black underframes. And that could only have been in 1969 - 1970.  

 

But all this is completely academic - dasatcopthornes pics earlier in this thread clearly show that underframes were never cleaned and re-painting was limited to a quick waft over with the airless spray - what ever colour was put on just soaked into the dirt (only slightly discouraged by an intervening layer of shellac varnish sometimes) and within a few days, brakeblock dust brown would reign again.  I see from Godfrey's pics in the Blue BIL thread that the NRM have maintained this fine tradition with their BIL.

 

 It is an irony that, according to paint shop gossip, the brown underframe was decided upon because it looked like the colour of the dirt, but was changed back to black because it showed the dirt more!

 

Whatever the historic reality, just weather it nicely and we will never know what colour you painted it!

 

Best wishes,

[John Oxlade]

It is interesting that much of the end detail will not be that obvious once the coaches are coupled up, HOWEVER, what bit of scratchbuilding I did some years ago, it is the small details that make a model. It is almost as if your subconscious is going round... "steps, CHECK, handrails, CHECK", so that even if you don't consciously notice them, it's the small details that make (or break) a great model, and Colin's SUB is undoubtedly GREAT.

I may be back in the UK in July and I'd love to see Colin's SUB, HAL and COR in the flesh.

Keep up the good (great) work Colin, you're an inspiration to us all.

[John Oxlade]

PS. Just curious... How someone in Wales is so intrigued by SR EMUs? OK, skip that, I live in New Zealand and it doesn't mean a thing! Shut up John, you're rambling.

[Judge Dread]

PS. Just curious... How someone in Wales is so intrigued by SR EMUs? OK, skip that, I live in New Zealand and it doesn't mean a thing! Shut up John, you're rambling.

John, I have modelled Southern Electrics for more years than I really care to remember and with the four layouts I have been concerned with the question which seemed to be asked at every exhibition was, "Why should a Yorkshire man model the Southern?". The set answer was, "No-one told me I couldn't!". You can find my latest attempt at www.thewheel.karoo.net

Regards, another John

[John Oxlade]

Ah, THAT layout - saw it in April '13 BRM. I liked the 71, brake tender and little cameos - amongst other things.

[Colin parks]

PS. Just curious... How someone in Wales is so intrigued by SR EMUs? OK, skip that, I live in New Zealand and it doesn't mean a thing! Shut up John, you're rambling.

Hi John,

 

In answer to your question, I was born in Brighton and lived on the south coast until 1979, some nineteen years later. By that time the EMU thing was in the blood.

 

It is interesting that much of the end detail will not be that obvious once the coaches are coupled up, HOWEVER, what bit of scratchbuilding I did some years ago, it is the small details that make a model. It is almost as if your subconscious is going round... "steps, CHECK, handrails, CHECK", so that even if you don't consciously notice them, it's the small details that make (or break) a great model, and Colin's SUB is undoubtedly GREAT.

I may be back in the UK in July and I'd love to see Colin's SUB, HAL and COR in the flesh.

Keep up the good (great) work Colin, you're an inspiration to us all.

Thanks for your comments on the detailing etc. The 4 SUBs in particular on first glance look very plain, but the more you look at them, the more you see that they are covered with subtle detail. Most of these details are minute in 4mm scale, but the plan was to include as much as possible to the correct size and proportion. The door hinges are a big compromise as they have no mounting plates, but including those plates would have ended up with over-scale detailing which would really spoil the effect.

 

As for seeing the collection of EMUs, the only show booked is in Aberaeron (well very near to) in West Wales on Aug.10th 2014. After that the layout is to be dismantled and most stock converted to P4 (if all goes well!)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[BernardTPM]

This leaves the question of what shade of brown was used, although with weathering the exact shade is not so critical.

According to the Corporate Manual underframes were Dark Brown B.S. 3-009; I'm pretty sure it's 009, but I can't find the original sheets I have to confirm, so I'm relying on this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallacehenning/6001002659/in/set-72157627338354424/

Edited December 11, 2013 by BernardTPM

[Colin parks]

According to the Corporate Manual underframes were Dark Brown B.S. 3-009; I'm pretty sure it's 009, but I can't find the original sheets I have to confirm, so I'm relying on this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallacehenning/6001002659/in/set-72157627338354424/

Thanks for that link Bernard.

 

The underframe colour looks much like the colour of frame dirt as Howard said.

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[SRman]

Hi Neil,

 

You will some to love everything Southern, so good luck with your conversion to third rail. Don't let the horrendous length of time it takes me to build a unit put you off -there are plenty of excellent RTR models to be had!

 

Re. underframe colours, you would certainly have seen units in early blue liveries with brown underframes as to quote David brown: " From the early 1970's underframes and bogies reverted to black." (p. 182 Southern Electric Vol. I). The confusing part is that for about four years after the introduction of the Rail Blue livery, the underframes were painted in dark brown. Added to that david Brown states that one depot, namely Selhurst, continued to re-varnish (repaint) units in green until Dec. 1968!

 

This leaves the question of what shade of brown was used, although with weathering the exact shade is not so critical. The tricky bit is finding out what shade of green 4 SUB unit 4377 carried following its last repaint in that colour.

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

The brown was often described as 'umber' but, to me, it always seemed to have a slight reddish hue ... when it wasn't caked in dirt, as most were!

[SRman]

PS. Just curious... How someone in Wales is so intrigued by SR EMUs? OK, skip that, I live in New Zealand and it doesn't mean a thing! Shut up John, you're rambling.

 

I live in Australia, so just as bad!! My excuse is I grew up in Southern Region territory! What's yours, John??    

[John Oxlade]

Born and raised in Redhill (central division). Dad was a driver at Redhill for years and we had a railway house alongside the Brighton mainline just north of the station. I have had railways in my blood since I was born, but only really got interested in British railways (not necessarily BR) once Dad passed away in Nov 2012. Prior to passing out as a driver he was a fireman at Salisbury and I well recall hearing stories of M7s, T9s, Merchant Navies, West Countries, and various other classes; I just wish I'd paid more attention at the time. I grew up with BR blue, but I must've forgotten some stuff because being born in 1964 I am old enough to remember steam (just), and green diesels. 

I've always had a passion for things narrow-gauge, but did the rounds of pre-war German then 1980s US before settling on BR(S). I hope (?) that is my last change, but my "interest cycl"e seems to be about 12-15 years.

Edited December 12, 2013 by John Oxlade

[SRman]

I was just down the line from you, then, John, and up the line from Colin. I lived and went to school in Pound Hill, just the other side of the line from Three Bridges.

 

Of course, we also now know why the Welshman is interested in SR electrics!!     

 

It seems we all have connections along the same line!

 

(With apologies to Colin for hijacking his wonderful model building thread!).

Edited December 12, 2013 by SRman

[New Haven Neil]

Hmm, my interest in electrics started with overhead - I was born and lived within buffer clanging distance of the Harton (Westoe) Colliery electric system!  After modelling US of 20 years, St Mary Hoo did me for 3rd rail, then Colin's threads on here!

 

Back OT, we are talking about green units having brown underframes here, aren't we?

[dasatcopthorne]

Sorry to continue this theme Colin.

 

I currently live in Copthorne, a stone's throw from Three Bridges.

BUT

 

Grew up in Morden. (Surrey)

 

Although I was and still am an LT fan (mostly Underground stuff) other childhood memories are of 4 Cor units slamming through Raynes Park and Wimbledon (with gangways nearly coming off) and placing coins on the rails of the Wimbledon - West Croydon line. (true)

 

That's enough for now.

 

 

Dave

Edited December 12, 2013 by dasatcopthorne

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin et al.

 

Back to the subject in hand.

 

As usual, I'm always lurking here watching your build progress.

 

Your skill with Plasticard never ceases to amaze me. Brilliant!

 

All those trips I made to photograph SR EMU details so that one day I'd get the details right has paid off.

 

Although I've used most myself, I am really pleased that others can make use of them to enhance their models.

 

 

When I started, there was no internet (not that long ago, only 1970) and I did it just for me, never thinking that anyone else might want to see or use them. After all, SR EMU modelling was a 'black art' in those days.

 

The times I stood in sidings (both legally and illegally), sometimes in p***ing rain, taking measurements and photos has now paid off.

 

Fantastic.

 

 

Dave