4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.

[Ian Fisher]

I have had a few packs of 5 thou Evergreen over the years. The packaging in front of me clearly says sheet styrene, the same one Colin will be in receipt of in a day or so RM willing.

 

I think the crispness is more to its desnsity as a plastic, and how much pressure you think you need to cut a material of similar thickness, giving the impression to me at least of being hard to cut.

 

 

Regarding the repair patches, I am not sure I have ever seen .005" strip and only Evergreen seem to do 005" sheet and I find that stuff pretty difficult to cut cleanly as it seems much tougher than normal styrene and I suspect it is made from a different plastic.

 

 

[Ceptic]

Hi Colin.

 

I'm tending to agree, that the trailers were N/S, both saloon, compartment & downgraded composite types. The MBSO's were Smokin' (and sparkin')

 

The SEG Booklet's G/As confirm this. Although printed in 1979, it gives some idea to the units' latter days

 

By the way, your SUB's looking SUperB 

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

[Colin parks]

Hmm.

Might have to disagree with myself on the last assertion about which end of the pseudo-composite the smoking compartments might have been.

 

Having studied the title page of ' A Southern Electric Album' again, is appears as though the 'No-Smoking' compartments were nearest the motor coach. Tantalisingly, the train in the photo does not show the ninth and tenth compartments of one trailer and not every quarter light has a red triangle transfer - although most do. (Vandalism?)

 

I'll just be happy if I can just get the ends the right was around on the trailer coaches. That is not so straightforward as it might seem either!

 

 

Colin

Edited November 11, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

I have had a few packs of 5 thou Evergreen over the years. The packaging in front of me clearly says sheet styrene, the same one Colin will be in receipt of in a day or so RM willing.

 

I think the crispness is more to its desnsity as a plastic, and how much pressure you think you need to cut a material of similar thickness, giving the impression to me at least of being hard to cut.

Hi Ian,

 

Many thanks in anticipation once again for posting the 5 thou. off to me today. It is interesting to see that you and Howard both think the thin stuff is tougher to cut than its thickness/thinness would suggest. We shall see. I must say that cutting the 4 SUB sides in 10 thou. requires more pressure than one would expect. When I had to cut the cab front window apertures in 20 thou. sheet it seemed really tough!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

I'm tending to agree, that the trailers were N/S, both saloon, compartment & downgraded composite types. The MBSO's were Smokin' (and sparkin')

 

The SEG Booklet's G/As confirm this. Although printed in 1979, it gives some idea to the units' latter days

 

By the way, your SUB's looking SUperB 

 

All the best,

 

Frank.

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for the SUBtle inclusion of the unit's name in your reply! The information you have does agree with everything else, although there is this mention of two trailer compartments also being allocated for smokers. The red triangles will look rather fetching with the green livery. so I'll put on as many as I can. Not that I am modelling the Southern Railway era, but the early SUB's even had Ladies compartments at each end nearest the luggage compartments. I wonder if anybody does the transfers for them?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[eastwestdivide]

Not sure of the period for your model, but I've photos of 4SUBs in 1982 and 1983 with round no smoking signs on the windows of the motor coaches.

I'm more familiar with the EPBs, where I think* they changed over from both motors smoking to one trailer smoking at some point in the region of 1980. (Yes, I could be more vague if I tried really hard!).

I seem to recall a thread on here in the last few years on smoking provision in SR EMUs, in which there was a gradual increase in NS accommodation.

Edit: found it - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71847-smoking-accommodation-on-emus/

not sure if it helps.

*Later still: I'm even less sure on reflection which way round the EPBs were at any given time.

Edited November 11, 2013 by eastwestdivide

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for the SUBtle inclusion of the unit's name in your reply! The information you have does agree with everything else, although there is this mention of two trailer compartments also being allocated for smokers. The red triangles will look rather fetching with the green livery. so I'll put on as many as I can. Not that I am modelling the Southern Railway era, but the early SUB's even had Ladies compartments at each end nearest the luggage compartments. I wonder if anybody does the transfers for them?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin

 

The use of No Smoking signs according to "BR Coach Lettering and Numbering" http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf Page 8A indicates that they were only appiled to one quaterlight. The SR later on, may have put them on the other side as well.

 

The round No Smoking sign was first introduced with the then new corporate image circa 1965-66. It was very common to see blue livery stock with the old triangle sign for many years after the stock was repainted blue. It was also quite common to see a mixture of the new sign when yobbos had pulled one off and a new one replaced it or a new window had been fitted.

[Budgie]

It was also quite common to see a mixture of the new sign when yobbos had pulled one off and a new one replaced it or a new window had been fitted.

The triangular "no smoking" signs were very thin (they didn't seem to be transfers to me) and they were very easy to scrape off the windows. Whaddya mean, "yobbos"? Schoolchildren, more like. The same people who wrote beautiful poems about "If five pounds you can afford, try your strength and pull this cord," etc. (which no longer scanned when the fine went up), and who exaggerated "Do not lean out of the window" into "Do not clean soot off the window".

 

When I travelled by train to school (1961 onwards), the no smoking signs were affixed to both windows either side of the door.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin

 

The use of No Smoking signs according to "BR Coach Lettering and Numbering" http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf Page 8A indicates that they were only appiled to one quaterlight. The SR later on, may have put them on the other side as well.

 

The round No Smoking sign was first introduced with the then new corporate image circa 1965-66. It was very common to see blue livery stock with the old triangle sign for many years after the stock was repainted blue. It was also quite common to see a mixture of the new sign when yobbos had pulled one off and a new one replaced it or a new window had been fitted.

Thanks Clive,

 

I do like the idea of a mixture of round and triangular transfers. The photo I have referred to before shows triangular transfers in all but two quaterlights, with one compartment having just the one. The photo dates back to late steam days in 1965, which is some five years earlier than the condition 4377 will portray (early 1970).

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Not sure of the period for your model, but I've photos of 4SUBs in 1982 and 1983 with round no smoking signs on the windows of the motor coaches.

I'm more familiar with the EPBs, where I think* they changed over from both motors smoking to one trailer smoking at some point in the region of 1980. (Yes, I could be more vague if I tried really hard!).

I seem to recall a thread on here in the last few years on smoking provision in SR EMUs, in which there was a gradual increase in NS accommodation.

Edit: found it - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71847-smoking-accommodation-on-emus/

not sure if it helps.

*Later still: I'm even less sure on reflection which way round the EPBs were at any given time.

Thanks eastwestdivide,

 

It seems as time went on the proportion of non-smoking accommodation increased on the SUBs just as you say. The model is set at 1970 just before repainting in BR blue.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

The triangular "no smoking" signs were very thin (they didn't seem to be transfers to me) and they were very easy to scrape off the windows. Whaddya mean, "yobbos"? Schoolchildren, more like. The same people who wrote beautiful poems about "If five pounds you can afford, try your strength and pull this cord," etc. (which no longer scanned when the fine went up), and who exaggerated "Do not lean out of the window" into "Do not clean soot off the window".

 

When I travelled by train to school (1961 onwards), the no smoking signs were affixed to both windows either side of the door.

Hi Budgie,

 

I use the term 'transfer' as that seems to be the common term for them. Whatever they were made of they were quite durable - if left alone! I can also remember that these transfers were the subject of various attempts at scraping them off.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Final work on the cab fronts before the body assembly later this week - hopefully.

 

The glazing has been trial- fitted - not sure if the l/h pane will make the grade due to the gap at the top. This glazing is the only part of the unit where it is doubled.

 

 

The interior is a bit rough and ready and I suppose some attempt at the motorman's controls will have to be made prior to assembly of the body too.

 

 

The inner ends needed some parts added to represent the train alarm piping and the junction boxes on two inner ends. (Perhaps someone knows their function?) The upper boxes seems to have been installed at different heights on different batches of units, so I took pot-luck and put them up high.

 

 

As requested by SRman, this last photo does show a mistake. The r/h end had both train alarm boxes and the two large junction boxes fixed to it -oops, how did that happen?!. So the train alarm parts were removed and the rough patches will need some careful smoothing.

 

The steps are ex- NN Kits etches from Phoenix-Precision bought on the recommendation of Ian (5BEL). Very good they are too, if a not a fraction narrow, but I certainly couldn't make anything that fine with individual treads.

 

Colin

Edited November 12, 2013 by Colin parks

[Jack P]

This is truely amazing Colin!

[SRman]

Even with the error, Colin, I still had to click the craftsmanship/clever icon, although I was tempted to go for funny or simply like!!!

 

If you hadn't pointed the error out I don't think any of us would have noticed. I'm sure the real things received a few 'rough patches' in normal service life anyway!

 

As always, superb work.

[BernardTPM]

The triangular "no smoking" signs were very thin (they didn't seem to be transfers to me) and they were very easy to scrape off the windows.

They were waterslide transfers; 'Collectors' Corner' used to sell them. No smoking on both sides silver on red.

[Ian Fisher]

An apology from myself on behalf of Royal Mail. Yesterday in the wind and rain I went to the post office in our grown up village, got soaked and posted a number of items .

 

And erm well this morning I had to do a double take....delivered early doors..

 

Was erm this package.....

 

 

Will have another go later, I did post it honest, oh and the addresses are not obliterated on the actual parcel...hmmmmmm

 

Not franked, I thought it clear that the original postage had been scrubbed out enough.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Ian Fisher

[Colin parks]

An apology from myself on behalf of Royal Mail. Yesterday in the wind and rain I went to the post office in our grown up village, got soaked and posted a number of items .

 

And erm well this morning I had to do a double take....delivered early doors..

 

Was erm this package.....

 

1384254487978.jpg

1384254487654.jpg

 

Hi Ian,

 

No worries. That is privatisation for you! I shall have to keep the dog away from the letterbox for the next few days then. She has a habit of biting letters as they come through the letter flap.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Will have another go later, I did post it honest, oh and the addresses are not obliterated on the actual parcel...hmmmmmm

 

Not franked, I thought it clear that the original postage had been scrubbed out enough.

[Colin parks]

A bit more progress on the side detailing.

 

Ian fisher has been kind enough to send me some Evergreen 5 thou. plastic sheet. I have wanted to try the stuff out for the mending plates on the bottom edges of the 4 SUB's sides. At the moment, even 5 thou. looks a bit gross, but once lightly sanded I'm sure they will be just right. the photo shows the first side to be attempted (and possibly some rust damage evident?!).

 

 

The application of mending plates was not uniformly applied to all panels between doorways, so some gaps will be left. The later units seem to have less of these plated repairs than the early SR ones. Unit 4377 was fairly early in the 4 SUB building programme, so I guess it should have a fair few repairs.

 

Another thing that is confusing me slightly is the interior layout of the two motor coaches. It is clear that 4377 had a TSO and TC, but in 'The 4 SUB Story', the appendix entries seem to contradict each other: the unit formation appendix lists an MBSO (which would be semi-saloon) at each end whilst the vehicle index states that the two motor coaches,10939 & 10940 were MBS (compartmented). It does seem that the two motor coaches were fitted out with compartments as the SR great and good were not sure whether to have compartmented or open saloon stock at the time of 4377's construction.

 

If anyone can shed some light on this or confirm that 4377 was formed as: MBS + TC + TSO + MBS, I would be grateful. The sides really need fitting with provision for compartments (in the right places!) before body assembly can begin.

 

Colin

[the penguin of doom]

Colin.

 

I just remembered, many moons ago when I did my K1 2-6-0, I actually used Tamiya masking tape as boiler bands. A bit crude I know, but once painted over, there was no real chance of it peeling, (they're still stuck solid now, three or four years later). Just a thought if you're not too happy with the 5thou?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Ceptic]

Hi Colin.

 

Re :- 4377's Driving Motors.

 

Ian Allan's ABCs for 1963 & 1973 both list 4377 as having the MBS (Compartment / 96 Seats). 

 

SUBsquent batch of SUBs, Nos. 4378* / 9 / 80 / 1* / 2 / 3* / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 shown having the MBSO (Saloon / Open / 82 Seats).

 

* Units missing in 1973.

 

All the best,

 

Frank. 

 

P.S. Edit...

As an afterthought..

The only batch of SUBs shown as having the Semi-Saloon / 84 Seats, MBS in 1963 are Nos. 4121 - 30, reduced to 4121 / 4 - 8 / 30 by 1973.

 

P.P.S. Edit....No. of seats added.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Ceptic

[HAB]

Just to support the all compartment motor hypothesis, the two motors were formed into 4 LAV 2932 for a time in 1967 (see 4 SUB Story p65) and since the LAVs had compartment motors, why would they not select compartment ones for this job?

 

Best wishes,

[Colin parks]

Colin.

 

I just remembered, many moons ago when I did my K1 2-6-0, I actually used Tamiya masking tape as boiler bands. A bit crude I know, but once painted over, there was no real chance of it peeling, (they're still stuck solid now, three or four years later). Just a thought if you're not too happy with the 5thou?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Thanks for the tip Sean.

 

I had thought of tape as I do use Tamiya masking tape when painting models. The plastic will be fine once sanded though, as I tried one strip today. More complicated was how to arrange 'random' repairs without there being too many or too uniform.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

Re :- 4377's Driving Motors.

 

Ian Allan's ABCs for 1963 & 1973 both list 4377 as having the MBS (Compartment / 96 Seats). 

 

SUBsquent batch of SUBs, Nos. 4378* / 9 / 80 / 1* / 2 / 3* / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 shown having the MBSO (Saloon / Open / 82 Seats).

 

* Units missing in 1973.

 

All the best,

 

Frank. 

 

P.S. Edit...

As an afterthought..

The only batch of SUBs shown as having the Semi-Saloon / 84 Seats, MBS in 1963 are Nos. 4121 - 30, reduced to 4121 / 4 - 8 / 30 by 1973.

 

P.P.S. Edit....No. of seats added.

Hi Frank,

 

Many thanks for responding to the call for help! I do not have that Ian Allan ABC book, perhaps I shall look for a copy. Having re-read the David Brown/Bryan Rayner book 'The 4 Sub Story', I think that the appendix is wrong, despite 4377 having its own specific entry stating its particular vehicles. It would seem that 4377's trailer open saloon confused the matter.

 

I have also had a good read of David Brown's 'Southern Electric' p. 167-73 and am now confident that you are right (or your book!) in saying 4377 was the last 4 SUB built with MBS vehicles.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Just to support the all compartment motor hypothesis, the two motors were formed into 4 LAV 2932 for a time in 1967 (see 4 SUB Story p65) and since the LAVs had compartment motors, why would they not select compartment ones for this job?

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

I think the little 'wobble' is over now. I also double-checked to make sure that 4377 didn't have the later and lighter self-ventilating traction motors which would require those square vents on the motor coach roofs. It didn't - phew!

 

I am getting close to assembling at least the TSO, having put on its mending strips and made it a false floor for the seating.

 

Any news of your Augmentation trailer?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Hi Colin,

 

My trailer makes some progress - not wishing to clutter your thread I sent you a PM which you might have missed - but here is the relevant pic:-

 

 

Door bumps still need repositioning... The side / roof joint did not come out too bad and is better now I have filled and rubbed it.  

 

Still agonising whether to finish it or do a "proper one" incorporating your roof!

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard.