Violet Alley

[shortliner]

I'm sure it is a silly question, but have you tried going and knocking on the door and asking? - it can be surprising what a personal visit can do

[shortliner]

I

think this has been posted before - but there are some "Alley-type" shots on it - links to parts 2 & 3 are on the right-hand side

 

[trisonic]

I'm sure it is a silly question, but have you tried going and knocking on the door and asking? - it can be surprising what a personal visit can do

No. Is the short answer.

 

Best, Pete.

[shortliner]

May just be worth a try - the worst they can do is say "Depart rapidly......!"

Best

Jack

[JWB]

Here's an alley off the BNSF Harbor Sub, several blocks from the UP Violet Alley line in Vernon.

Here's the visual of a train coming out of that same alley onto a cross street:

[trisonic]

The "alleys" in the movie Jack posted must be the narrowest I've seen!

 

It would be interesting to start the alley section of a model very tight as per movie then reaching a road crossing andT junction have it street running a bit further, Difficult to describe what I mean with just words...

 

Best, Pete.

[shortliner]

John (JWB) did you have any further ideas re the collapsed Inglenook? Posts #9 & #10

[JWB]

One possibility would be to lengthen it considerably:

 

Extend the fiddle to the right so it's equal plus more to the length of the rest of the layout. You could keep the spurs, but add considerable single-track length between them. Or, if you were adding it at a 90-degree angle to an existing layout, you could use track on the existing layout as headroom.

 

I would use the extra length to vary the scenery among other things:

And of course add cross streets, but never do the same thing twice!

 

[shortliner]

My thoughts almost exactly -although I'd also considered a right-hand turmout to the right of what on the original was the Victory Tie Factory, leading down to a hidden storage/inbound track behind the buildings/flats - roads leading off to the rear could be photoshopped into the background - see Reinhards (Faraway) crossroads background here done from Google Streetview  http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/faraway52/FL2013-2/file_zpse8c91158.jpg

and also a possible track leading off into/through the back onto a cassette, running through a walkway overhead and possibly holding a single car

[Tove]

Some interesting thoughts and ideas guy`s. 

A while ago i thought about modeling some alley and street running in O scale to do with the LA Industrial district,all be it in a limited space.

Though it never really got past the idea`s stage,i did draw up a plan.

It`s a very simple two point and a traverser layout,all based on the pictures from the DPD Prod`s. web site

It was going to be a what if type of affair,set in the current (then2010) day running ex SP SW1500`s.

I`ve also done a couple of overhead shots showing the area the layout`s based on.

Anyway,i`ll be following with interest to see what you come up with.

Regards,

Brian.

[shortliner]

Brian, now that I LIKE! I have drawn up various ideas over the years since it first appeared on Carls site, including double length PECO cassettes on the left-hand end, and, for some reason, the blindingly obvious (when someone else points it out!) use of a 3-track traverser had never occured to me. Absolutely Brilliant!  Further thoughts are now trundling round in my head

[Tove]

Cheers Jack,glad you like the plan.

 

"and, for some reason, the blindingly obvious (when someone else points it out!) use of a 3-track traverser had never occured to me."

We`ve all been there........

 

At the risk of highjacking JWB`s thread,i had a play with the section that comes before E2nd St. with the thought that you could add sections as space permitted,or dare i say it built it as a exhibition layout.

I`ve reversed the buildings so that the more interesting ones are modeled and the big warehouse sits on the front of the layout.

My thinking that it could be done using your suggestion Jack,of see through plexiglass or acrylic and perhaps model the canopy and loading dock on the layout side?.

 

Some where there is a picture of a SP box car in the 70`s/80`s sat on the siding behind the fence.

Can`t remember exactly,but i think it`s on flckr.

 

Regards,

Brian.

[JWB]

The mental exercise I'd been thinking over had a different objective -- it was similar to an idea Tony Koester proposed (he's frustrating, because he gets good ideas sometimes) of having a completely offstage version of Violet Alley in which the operator has to set up a block of cars in the order of a whole set of industries on a single track. I think he was thinking about the Bottoms area of Kansas City, but Violet Alley is similar. The challenge is both operational and layout-design. Violet Alley is unlike other former industrial areas of LA (or still in Vernon), in that the other areas, like the one above, have individual spurs for each industry, making switching easier. So the proposal just above isn't quite the same thing as Violet Alley and doesn't have quite the same objective.

[shortliner]

So the TK project is basically a small, limited-space 3 track sorting yard, used to build a train of cars into a suitable order for dropping off single cars in the order needed along a line with no sidings - in other words he is re-inventing a 5:3:3 , or 7:4:4 .  Inglenook with the lead track representing the outgoing line?

[shortliner]

Brian, that is an interesting variation - just looked at it on Google and seen that there were tracks in there originally

[JWB]

So the TK project is basically a small, limited-space 3 track sorting yard, used to build a train of cars into a suitable order for dropping off single cars in the order needed along a line with no sidings - in other words he is re-inventing a 5:3:3 , or 7:4:4 .  Inglenook with the lead track representing the outgoing line?

I think exactly what fed the long single track doesn't necessarily matter. It could be an inglenook with one long digit, or it could be something more complex. However, the interest would come from the number of cars you'd have to switch onto the long single track. To judge from the historical references to Violet Alley, this could have been 40 or more cars in a pop. You'd need more than a 5-3-3 inglenook to set something like this up! I would also think that unless you're severely constricted as to space (not ruling that out, of course), you'd want to sustain interest by having it as an extension of an existing layout, which would expand the operational possibilities.

[shortliner]

If you are going to build a 40+ car train you need plenty of yard space to do it, presumably building it in sections on multiple tracks. and then joining the sections, and then one hell of a lot of space for your single track alley, even assuming 40' cars - I'd be more interested in how the cars were recovered thinking about per diem rates, you could have a lot of upset customers who couldn't get the emptied/loaded cars away, or had to have part completed jobs moved and returned with men standing idle, As for the kits needed for the buildings - Walthers would love your order.

[JWB]

I'm assuming that the customers would have been familiar with the drill, and there would have been a single schedule for switching everything -- on top of that, probably a night shift. So the customers empty-load the cars during day shift and go home. The railroad comes along at 11 PM or whatever, having built the 40-car cut earlier, pulls the 40 cars waiting for pickup, and sets out the 40 cars in the cut. Naturally a model almost certainly wouldn't involve 40 cars -- but a dozen might be a credible size, even on a small-to-medium layout.

 

I wouldn't order all the buildings from Walthers, though some would be good candidates -- check out Fos Scale's low-relief flats, for instance. http://foslimited.com//index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11 Or Bar Mills.

 

And keep in mind that customers wind up following the schedule the railroad gives them anyhow -- deliveries Tuesdays and Thursdays, pickups Mondays and Fridays. That's one reason they go to trucks, but it also can mean economies if your business model suits rail shipment. For that matter, not too far from Vernon or Violet Alley, the PE/SP Santa Monica Air Line ran down the center of Exposition Boulevard, which had that name for a reason, and periodically rail access would be closed for special displays by the rail industry. The customers were told how things were, period.

[Tove]

I'm assuming that the customers would have been familiar with the drill, and there would have been a single schedule for switching everything -- on top of that, probably a night shift. So the customers empty-load the cars during day shift and go home. The railroad comes along at 11 PM or whatever, having built the 40-car cut earlier, pulls the 40 cars waiting for pickup, and sets out the 40 cars in the cut. Naturally a model almost certainly wouldn't involve 40 cars -- but a dozen might be a credible size, even on a small-to-medium layout.

 

 

That certianly makes more sence,and i think the thought of tying up all those grade crossings in daylight hours would have the city up in arms, let alone the buisnesses.

As a side, a forty car train assuming there all 40ft cars,would be around 21ft with a single swicher.That`s one hell of an inglenook!.

 

Brian.

[Tove]

Brian, that is an interesting variation - just looked at it on Google and seen that there were tracks in there originally

 

 

This page has the picture of the box car i mentioned earlier ,and the warehouse track has gone even by then.

Plus there`s a couple of other photo`s that might be of interest. 

http://lariverrailroads.com/downtownindustry.html

 

 

Brian.

[Talltim]

It's one of those balances of selective compression. You need enough cars/industries to give the impression of switching a lot of industries at once, but I reckon you could cut it down to in the region of 15 and get the right feel. Of course the far end of the alley could be offstage

[shortliner]

I'm assuming that the customers would have been familiar with the drill, and there would have been a single schedule for switching everything -- on top of that, probably a night shift. So the customers empty-load the cars during day shift and go home. The railroad comes along at 11 PM or whatever, having built the 40-car cut earlier, pulls the 40 cars waiting for pickup, and sets out the 40 cars in the cut. Naturally a model almost certainly wouldn't involve 40 cars -- but a dozen might be a credible size, even on a small-to-medium layout.

 

I wouldn't order all the buildings from Walthers, though some would be good candidates -- check out Fos Scale's low-relief flats, for instance. http://foslimited.com//index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11 Or Bar Mills.

 

And keep in mind that customers wind up following the schedule the railroad gives them anyhow -- deliveries Tuesdays and Thursdays, pickups Mondays and Fridays. That's one reason they go to trucks, but it also can mean economies if your business model suits rail shipment. For that matter, not too far from Vernon or Violet Alley, the PE/SP Santa Monica Air Line ran down the center of Exposition Boulevard, which had that name for a reason, and periodically rail access would be closed for special displays by the rail industry. The customers were told how things were, period.

John, I think I had completely mis-understood the mechanics of the operation. not realising that pickups and drops would be done on different days, or that operations were likely to be at night - all becomes very much clearer! Howeve it then makes me wonder if it would be possible to model the night-time operations. somewhat on the lines of Prof Klyzlrs "Brooklyn 3AM", which might add an interesting perspective to operations 

 

The comment about Walthers was mainly regarding the cost of buildings - although the FOS ones are not exactly cheap either - might be worth looking at "City Classics"  or even DPM modulars

[shortliner]

A possible light weight spine frame for a set of Alley Modules = spine and cross-pieces are 1"x 1" or 2"x 2" pine, with a 1/16" ply top (all glued). Modules have a sub-mini jack plug in one end of the spine and a matching socket in the other to feed wiring and also join the modules together. Side sections of 1/16" ply can be added if desired. Length/width/quantity of modules to modellers requirements

 

[JWB]

Jack, I think you're on the right track here, though not just about an alley module. I've been thinking about the Model Railroader Thin Branch series, which is a semi-modular addition to the Virginian project layout from 2012. It isn't a "module" in the sense of an interchangeable Freemo component to a universal set of standards, but it's something that can be plugged in or out of a home layout. I believe the editorial thinking revolves around a situation like possibly a rec room where other activities besides a layout take place, and pieces of the layout can be rolled in or out at will. I'm simply not familiar enough with the typical living arrangement in the UK to know how applicable this might be. However, it seems to me that the operating possibilities of a plan like Haston (I don't mean to pick on Haston, but it is a good plan) could be expanded if it were set in a corner with a 90-degree alley extension to one side and the main line extended to the right into a full fiddle-staging. Plug-like disconnects for those parts would allow it to be separated and taken to an exhibition.

 

The benefit of an alley, it seems to me, is that it's unique -- nobody's done one that I'm aware of -- and it offers a set of operational challenges, though it isn't necessarily minimum-space, although it could certainly be done in less than 6 inches width. On an eight-foot shelf, that would still qualify as a micro by Carl A's definition. But if people don't want to be tied to some standard exhibition shunty-plank configuration, it seems to me that a 90-degree plug-in is a serious option.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Alley cats,

 

I got your alleys right here... ;-)

 

http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page87/

(scroll down and check the pics immediately above and below the "Finishing Touches" title...
...particularly the covered hopper poking out between "Ronnie's Automotive" and "Conklin" at far right)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr