1977 Postal Train Service

[NeilH]

Hi

 

I was hoping someone maybe able to help me with a query relating to the Bachmann POS coaches....

 

I bought a number of these for my model rail layout which is set in 1977 for a Euston - Carlisle service.

 

However, I have now noticed looking at some photos of POS coaches from this era that the window arrangement is different to the model.

 

I was wondering if all the POS coaches had been modified ~1977 or if there were still coaches with the model window arrangement in service...

 

Thanks inadvance if anyone can help with this.

 

Kind regards,

 

Neil.

 

[Bomag]

There were several different looking batches of POS and POT (some rebulit from older service stock - SK/BSK). The POS model looks to be the first batch which were fitted with nets. Later versions were fitted with flush side. It would be highly unlikely to have a train in 1977 only cosnsisting of ex-net POS stock (which were something like 10% of all 803xx stock); an option would be to run most of the train with the flush side facing the viewer.  

[ozzyo]

To get a better idea of TPO stock the book by Keith Parkin on British Railways Mark 1 Coaches (ISBN 0 906899 49 4) should help you. The nets and set down equipment was removed by 1971.

 

Depending on what your saying about the windows, the POS had basicliy two types large (approx 9" deep) and small (approx. 6" deep), but there was a lot more than just the windows on the POSs. That made them different.

 

If your thinking about the night down or up special TPO, you would want about 10 or 12 coaches (or more) to make a model of these.

 

A short TPO could be some thing like this. Loco, BG (or BTPO), POS, POT, POS, BTPO, BG. or Loco, BTOPS, POS, POS, POT, BG, BG,  One that I worked on had a consist that went like this, up Loco, BG, BG, POS, BG. down, Loco, BG, POS, BG, BG.

 

I've seen models of trains with TPO coaches in amongst normal stock (in B.G. livery) that does not work, as all PO coaches are locked out (in that the only people allowed in them are PO staff).

 

OzzyO.

 

 

[Flood]

In 1978 there was one train which ran Euston - Glasgow/Aberdeen and return plus another Carlisle - Glasgow/Perth and return.

 

The Glasgow/Aberdeen service was booked POT, 2 POS, POT, POS, 2 POS, POT, BPOT, BG*, BG+ (to Aberdeen, *Euston - Preston, +Euston - Crewe)

2 POS were added at Carlisle to work to Edinburgh.

 

From looking at the L.M and ScR marshalling booklets it would appear that the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions were allowed to work with no brake vehicle from Carstairs - most strange.

 

Even though the final batch of Postal stock was not converted until 1977 there would still have been more of the later (small window) style postal vehicles as OzzyO has already stated - on the L.M :6 older style POS, 36 later style POS, 3 older style POT (at the most), 14 later style POT. The marshalling booklets show that the same types of vehicle were in use in 1977 and 1988 for the Aberdeen portion. Photos confirm this from around 1981 and 1988 and show the following:

 

Dia 731 POS (VHF pod on roof), later style windows

Dia 726 POS, later style windows

Dia 732 POT, later style windows

Dia 733 BPOT, later style windows

 

The Perth - Carlisle service was booked BG, POS, POS, POS, GUV, BG, BG (from Glasgow, from Edinburgh). The Perth postal coach worked to Perth on the 20.44 Carlisle - Perth: BSK, CK, BSK, POS, BG. So day coaches and postal stock can be on the same train but not mixed together.

 

At the moment the only late style postal stock available is from either DC Kits or Southern Pride.

[ozzyo]

In 1977 there was one train which ran Euston - Glasgow/Aberdeen and return plus another Carlisle - Glasgow/Perth and return.

 

The Glasgow/Aberdeen service was booked POT, 2 POS, POT, POS, 2 POS, POT, BPOT, BG*, BG+ (to Aberdeen, *Euston - Preston, +Euston - Crewe)

2 POS were added at Carlisle to work to Edinburgh.

 

From looking at the L.M and ScR marshalling booklets it would appear that the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions were allowed to work with no brake vehicle from Carstairs - most strange.

 

 

Thanks Flood,

 

I was working from memory, so after 30+ years it may be out a bit. 

 

Reading what you say about the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions of the train, it does sound strange. But it could be worked as the train was fully fitted and did not carry passengers (also the train was a private train) the only people on the train should be R.M. staff. So could it be that the guard could travel in the back cab? Like on a fully fitted freight (goods) train.

 

I've just got out my book on MK 1coaches and started to look at the coaches for the TPOs, "one" Diag.725 has jumped out at me. As an odd ball. Why was it built at this time and what is so odd.

 

Some of you will know what I'm saying so please don't jump in at the first post, let some other people have a go.

 

OzzyO.

[NeilH]

Many thanks for the information provided.

 

The postal train that I am trying to model is identified in the LMR Passenger Train Marshalling Circular (2/5/77 to 7/5/78) as:

 

22:50 (SX) Euston to Carlisle Postal (via Birmingham):

2BG, POT, 2POS, POS, POS, BG

 

I have renumbered the POS coaches M80310, M80312, M80314 and M80318 (all vacuum braked).

 

Would anyone be helpful enough to let me know if these had the old style windows (or where I could find out appropriately numbered coaches ?).

 

Thanks again for the help with this,

 

Regards

 

Neil

[Flood]

Right then, I think the Bachmann model is based on diagram 720. According to the diagram book all of this type had large windows. This consisted of 80300-5, lot 30486 (originally with nets and arms); 80309-14, lot 30661 (provision for both); 80315-17, lot 30661 (arms and provision for nets) and 80318, lot 30663 (nets and provision for arms). Sadly this is not the case. Parkin states all vehicles built after 1961 had the smaller windows but I have photos in books of both 80310 and 80311 (built 1961) with small windows. Therefore the only coaches correct for the Bachmann model are 80300-5.

 

The only other POS diagram with large windows was diagram 721: 80306-8, lot 30487. This had no provision for nets or arms so had no large flattened recess in the bodyside (nor recesses either side of the doors).

 

All in all, therefore, it's not good news.

 

 

The Aberdeen/Glasgow rake was the 20.45 off Euston. I must admit I was working from a 1978 marshalling book not 1977 (I've corrected my previous post) but the rake remained the same.

 

I've now found the rake you have mentioned, the final POS was removed at Crewe and final BG was removed at Birmingham so it obviously depends whether you are modelling nearer to Euston or Carlisle.

 

Regarding the lack of brake facilities in the previous post I mentioned I agree with OzzyO, as passengers were not carried (only Post office staff) and the trains were fully fitted perhaps a brake vehicle was not required.

[NeilH]

Many thanks for this info Flood.

 

I will need to have a think about what I can do now.

 

Regards

 

Neil.

[keefer]

 

Regarding the lack of brake facilities in the previous post I mentioned I agree with OzzyO, as passengers were not carried (only Post office staff) and the trains were fully fitted perhaps a brake vehicle was not required.

 

i don't have one for the OP's period, but this sort of working would be covered in the relevant sectional appendix

 

e.g. 1969 ScR sectional appendix has (just showing page relevant to the glas/edin trains):