For those interested in old cars.

[stewartingram]

22 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 Yet, it was lightyears better inside than a mini!

I started motoring with an Austin A30 (wish I still had it). The A30 of course morphed into the A35, and then was replaced by the Mini. Yes the Mini may have been a masterpiece, but I never - at the time - thought much of it. However when the Metro (supposedly its successor) appeared, WOW! The Mini had grown up into a proper car, but was still small! I had the rare occasion to use the works pool car once, a nearly new Metro, and loved it. My kids had them, I maintained them but never owned one. However I now do, as I bought one for restoration about 3 years ago. When I got in to drive it (it still isn't fully restored though), and when I've worked on it, it was wonderful to go back in time. An easy car to maintain, no modern contraptions to go wrong, but sensibly designed with essential items fitted but nothing unnecessary.  And still in my opinion comfortable to drive. I'm looking forward to being able to use it properly.

 

Stewart

[MJI]

5 hours ago, doilum said:

A much underrated car. If only GM politics had allowed it the 1.6 used in the Opel Kadett, Ford might not have sold so many Escorts. Despite two years of hooligan driving I never had any incident or off road excursion. Eventually the boy needed more racer and it was replaced by an RS 2000.

 

To be honest the engine is rather rubbish, awkwards to work on, 3 bearing, not good, a bigger engine would be much better. GM had some decent bigger engines.

 

1 hour ago, Southern Steve said:

The Metro wasn't a bad effort considering BL were broke when it was developed.

It was at least as good as the current Fiesta when launched and superior to the archaic RWD Chevette and Chrysler  Sunbeam offerings from the other 2 of the big four in the UK at the time.

It sold like hot cakes when first launched. 

We had an MG Metro in light metallic green and it was a smartly packaged little car.

 

 

 

Metro was OK, but my parents had one for a while, I owned a Sunbeam for about 5 years.

 

One was roomier inside, the other more comfortable, better handling and quicker.

 

People forget the Sunbeam was based on a modern design saloon but with traditional layout. So modern with coils rather than cart springs, a modern version of a push rod engine. Electronic ignition.

[MJI]

30 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

In defence of Godawful BL crap, the Marina, being RWD could be fun, the coupe was a good looking Capri alternative, which certainly handled better. (BL didn't have the advantage of a blue oval on the grille to market a poor man's Mustang).

Now if BL had shoved an alloy, 2 litre twin cam twin carb motor in the TC along with a five speed box, a la Fiat Supermirafiori, they would be cosseted classics now, rather than a bad joke. Who knows? They might have been valued at the same undeserved figure that Escorts command.

 

Coupe was a rather nicely styled car

[Southern Steve]

5 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

To be honest the engine is rather rubbish, awkwards to work on, 3 bearing, not good, a bigger engine would be much better. GM had some decent bigger engines.

 

 

 

Metro was OK, but my parents had one for a while, I owned a Sunbeam for about 5 years.

 

One was roomier inside, the other more comfortable, better handling and quicker.

 

People forget the Sunbeam was based on a modern design saloon but with traditional layout. So modern with coils rather than cart springs, a modern version of a push rod engine. Electronic ignition.

"Modern design saloon"?

The sunbeam was built on a shortened Hillman Avenger floorpan, 60's technology, RWD, ohv pushrod engines etc (save the 930, which had a modified Imp lump), hardly cutting edge! It was stop gap when launched.

Though the Sunbeam Lotus gave it a glamorous image for a while.

[boxbrownie]

The Fiesta was developed against the Fiat 127 and Renault 5 but primarily the Fiat as being the far better vehicle (seems strange saying that now) the Metro was brought in tested and torn down after launch (as was both Fiat and Renault) and dismissed not being comparable to each of the others even though a newer vehicle.

Somewhere I might still have piccies of a 127 with Ford bits grafted on, we had several used as bucks and development mules, the Fiat was the one to beat on handling and became the benchmark to beat.

 

Anyhoo that was what seems like a millennia ago.......what only 44 years? 
 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by boxbrownie

[MrWolf]

I have had a Chevette or two, whilst the droop snoot styling etc was very much at the forefront, I have to say that the engines let them down, known by the trade as the Biscuit tin engine, they were an Opel economy job that got pushed on Vauxhall as part of GM's World Car programme.

The valve gear was awful, you also had to drop the (held by rusty inaccessible bolts, not brass nuts) exhaust system, before jacking up the engine and removing an engine mount, just to get at the starter motor. The motor was simply held by two bolts in traditional fashion. Shades of things to come where you have to pay a garage four hours labour for a twenty minute job.

 

That is apparently progress.

[alastairq]

In regard to Ford & FIAT? Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of tie-up twixt Ford & FIAT some decades ago?

Which, as it seems, never quite panned out?

[Hobby]

The second generation Ford Ka and the "modern" Fiat 500 being one example.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Hobby

[great central]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

 

Coupe was a rather nicely styled car

 

I had one until early this year, it had lain unused since 1981. I had considered restoration but having moved it from its (sort of) storage position to somewhere I could actually get a good look at it, decided I had neither the time, inclination or, most importantly, money to get it done. The inner wing was all but nonexistent along with pretty much everything else needing rebuilding or replacing.

I hope that the fella who bought it might restore it but wouldn't be surprised if it's been stripped for spares.

[Rugd1022]

50 minutes ago, alastairq said:

In regard to Ford & FIAT? Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of tie-up twixt Ford & FIAT some decades ago?

Which, as it seems, never quite panned out?

 

Not sure about that, but I do know that when Henry Ford II ('Deuce') bought the first Ghibli sold in the USA in 1967 he immediately offered to buy out Maserati, but owner Omer Orsi declined and did a deal with Citroen instead. This was only four years after he was turned down by Enzo Ferrari.

[Rugd1022]

5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

The Maserati was something else, it looks lightweight, but when you get into it, you get that feeling of solidity like being in a military aircraft, something that it shares with the Bristol, but because of all the glass, it feels like a convertible. What you might call spirited takeoffs are easily as impressive as the DB5 and certainly better than an XK 150, (which has a bit of middle aged spread), it definitely feels like the front wheels are a long way ahead when you launch it. It handled pretty good for its age, limited mostly by the skinny tyres and ability to lock the wheels.

Oddly enough, I am reminded of it whenever I get into SWMBO's Herald 1200. the airy cabin, high body sides and driving position are much the same, I think that comes from the Triumph's Italian pedigree tbh. 

 

Thanks for the insight, I want one even more now .

 

Way back in 1990 a friend of ours had a very nice Herald which she used daily, if memory serves it was a '68 and was in excellent nick for its age, I remember how nice it felt to ride in and she let me drive it a couple of times. It was originally pale blue, but being a goth she'd had it painted black and put a red interior in it!

[russ p]

4 hours ago, MJI said:

 

To be honest the engine is rather rubbish, awkwards to work on, 3 bearing, not good, a bigger engine would be much better. GM had some decent bigger engines.

 

 

 

Metro was OK, but my parents had one for a while, I owned a Sunbeam for about 5 years.

 

One was roomier inside, the other more comfortable, better handling and quicker.

 

People forget the Sunbeam was based on a modern design saloon but with traditional layout. So modern with coils rather than cart springs, a modern version of a push rod engine. Electronic ignition.

 

I've had both and each has its merits , I still have a metro turbo although it hasn't been on the road for a couple of years.  

I've done a little bit of work on it so its about 115-120bhp so it goes pretty well but not as well as my sunbeam which was 220bhp .

The metro handles fantastically it has uprated dampers on the front but other than that its standard 

The turbo has uprated hydrogas units and a rear antirollbar which kind of acts as a friction damper

[MJI]

4 hours ago, Southern Steve said:

"Modern design saloon"?

The sunbeam was built on a shortened Hillman Avenger floorpan, 60's technology, RWD, ohv pushrod engines etc (save the 930, which had a modified Imp lump), hardly cutting edge! It was stop gap when launched.

Though the Sunbeam Lotus gave it a glamorous image for a while.

 

Was designed with help of computers. OHV is not necessary an old thing. It was extremely easy to work on, flowed well and reliable. Push rods were short due to high up cam shaft.

 

Most competitors were leaf sprung.

[doilum]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I have had a Chevette or two, whilst the droop snoot styling etc was very much at the forefront, I have to say that the engines let them down, known by the trade as the Biscuit tin engine, they were an Opel economy job that got pushed on Vauxhall as part of GM's World Car programme.

The valve gear was awful, you also had to drop the (held by rusty inaccessible bolts, not brass nuts) exhaust system, before jacking up the engine and removing an engine mount, just to get at the starter motor. The motor was simply held by two bolts in traditional fashion. Shades of things to come where you have to pay a garage four hours labour for a twenty minute job.

 

That is apparently progress.

My guess is that the unions might have had a say in things. Whilst GM pushed ahead towards a common European model (already 8 years behind Ford) by adopting the Kadett body shells and allowing Wayne Cherry's style department to do a nose job, they secured work for the plant building 1257cc Viva engines.

Dad had several Vivas and Chevettes. I don't recall big problems with starter motor removal on Vivas so I guess the problems came from the different cross member on the Chevette. Main problem was that the 55 bhp couldn't easily be increased without spending lots of money and compromising reliability unlike the Ford crossflow .

Edited December 20, 2020 by doilum
Additional information

[MrWolf]

Vivas had plenty of access to the starter, more so on the 1159cc HB, the engine of which was an entirely different (and much better) animal.

[RJS1977]

22 hours ago, PatB said:

*"Torquey" being used here in the widely used colloquial sense, rather than any strict, engineering definition. 

 

And here's me thinking it was a Devon seaside resort famous for its views of the Sydney Opera House, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically..... ;-)

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, alastairq said:

In regard to Ford & FIAT? Wasn't there supposed to be some sort of tie-up twixt Ford & FIAT some decades ago?

Which, as it seems, never quite panned out?

With Fiat, VW, Mazda etc etc etc.......if it makes it more economical to produce, go for it......provided it doesn’t erode the brand.

[alastairq]

Going around the world, it's a game really....

 

''When is a 'Ford', not a Ford?''

[boxbrownie]

5 minutes ago, alastairq said:

Going around the world, it's a game really....

 

''When is a 'Ford', not a Ford?''

When it’s a Ford.....

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

Going around the world, it's a game really....

 

''When is a 'Ford', not a Ford?''

When it is a Kia....... 

 

When in Aus we hired a Ford Festiva. Think it was designed by Mazda, built by Kia and badged Ford. It was so gutless keeping to the speed limit wasn’t an issue.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Fat Controller]

8 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

When it is a Kia....... 

 

When in Aus we hired a Ford Festiva. Think it was designed by Mazda, built by Kia and badged Ford. It was so gutless keeping to the speed limit wasn’t an issue.

 

All the best

 

Katy

A close relative to the SEAT Panda we hired in Spain; we had to stop half-way up a hill to let it catch its breath, and were overtaken by a man on a mule....

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Kickstart said:

When it is a Kia....... 

 

When in Aus we hired a Ford Festiva. Think it was designed by Mazda, built by Kia and badged Ford. It was so gutless keeping to the speed limit wasn’t an issue.

 

Wasn't that the original Mazda 121, badged as a Ford in some markets (just as the Mk3 Fiesta was badged as a Mazda in others)?

[MrWolf]

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

With Fiat, VW, Mazda etc etc etc.......if it makes it more economical to produce, go for it......provided it doesn’t erode the brand.

 

Which as we all know from the great BMC / BL debacle, it does

 

GM made the same mistake, goodbye Oldsmobile and Pontiac. 

 

Chrysler made the same mistake, goodbye Plymouth etc....

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

A close relative to the SEAT Panda we hired in Spain; we had to stop half-way up a hill to let it catch its breath, and were overtaken by a man on a mule....

 

I actually had an RHD Seat Marbella (Panda) it was so bad it was good. Ok, so the bulkhead was non existent and the passenger could either lift the battery off its carrier or apply the brakes by pushing with their feet.

But, I got it for scrap money and used it as a hack / dog carrier / firewood grabber and general van. Thy only time it ever broke down was in a blizzard up above Windermere when the air intake behind the grille filled up with snow. A five minute bodge sorted that out.

What finally killed it was the Mickey mouse sensor in the radiator, which failed on the M5 and failed to switch on the Mickey mouse fan, blowing the head gasket.

I also had an awful, not the least bit cool, rusted out Citroen visa, which seemed unbreakable, until the electronic ignition died, the same part was missing from every junkyard donor and a new part was about four times what I paid for the car. 

Being me, if they had been say a Fiat 850 and a Citroen Ami 6, I would have been sufficiently interested to repair them, but then again, one silly bit of plastic wouldn't have killed them.

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Wasn't that the original Mazda 121, badged as a Ford in some markets (just as the Mk3 Fiesta was badged as a Mazda in others)?

Think the original was, although the one we hired was the 2nd series. More rounded and bigger I think. But incredibly gutless (years ago we had a 1L Metro which had far more go)

 

All the best

 

Katy