For those interested in old cars.

[MJI]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

The O was a development of the B, wheras the E was a new engine.

 

https://www.aronline.co.uk/engines/o-series/

https://www.aronline.co.uk/engines/engines-e-series/

The O lead to M T Prima L G TD5

 

[Phil Traxson]

4 hours ago, johnlambert said:

I don't think the Wolseley straight six of the police cars (the 6/80 or something like that) had anything to do with the motor fitted to the Landcrab and Wedge Princess other than the "W" badge.  The old OHC engine was copied from Hispano-Suiza aero engines that Wolseley manufactured during the First World War; there were fours and sixes that also found their way into Morrises and MGs as all three were "Nuffield Group" companies.  They had a gear driven camshaft with a vertical shaft and helical gears to transmit motion between crank and cams; some also had the dynamo in unit with the vertical shaft (causing problems when the oil seal failed and dumped oil in the dynamo).  I think the engines had a reputation as being a bit demanding of maintenance, which is cited as one of the reasons for the apparently retrograde step of adopting overhead valves actuated by pushrods for the replacement C-series six-cylinder engine.

 

The OHC engine fitted to the Landcrab Wolseley Six and Austin/Morris variants, was designed for transverse installation, so it had siamesed bores to keep the block short and a chain driven overhead camshaft; I think it was the same family as the E-series four cylinder engines of 1,500 and 1,750cc (roughly) fitted to Allegros and Maxis.

Misinformed, thanks for the correction.

 

[steve1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-54423328

 

Metro worship. 

 

steve

[boxbrownie]

7 hours ago, PatB said:

I've always been under the impression that the extra power available to induce a degree of oversteer compensated for any noseweight induced understeer. 

More likely the “much lauded”  transverse spring rear suspension with massive positive camber took care of any oversteer..........

[boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, johnlambert said:

Having tried the clutch in a Maserati Biturbo I can say that it was probably the heaviest pedal I've ever pushed, that alone might be justification for ticking the box for automatic transmission.

 

Try a 1970’s 911.........you need a left leg like a drag line excavator 

[Oldddudders]

My first experience of a left-hand-drive car was a Ferrari F355, for three laps of Thruxton. The clutch was bloomin' heavy - and the gear lever somewhere over there! Arrgh! 

[Rugd1022]

5 hours ago, Kickstart said:

The automatic has quite a heavy throttle! To be honest though with cars in general, clutch effort can vary massively with the age of the clutch (and where wear has occurred).

 

I actually far prefer manual gearboxes with a clutch pedal, but on the Maserati it works well at avoiding lag. Holding a lower gear (auto or manual) doesn’t work that well to avoid lag as it isn’t so much rpm dependent. Rather needs the turbo to spin up, and in a lower gear you are using less throttle, so less air flow to keep the turbo spinning.

 

Biturbo running costs were actually not that bad , beyond petrol consumption. Issue now appears to be lack of spares, hence prices rocketing of those that are available. Strangely when Ferrari first took over Maserati the spares prices dropped ; almost as though Ferrari were embarrassed that Maserati could charge more for spares. Quite a few bits are nabbed from other cars; years ago we needed a fog light which turned out to be from the late Lancaster Thema, and they were £108 from Maserati and £38 from Lancia.

 

If you do buy a Biturbo (or the later coupes after they stopped calling them that) one trick they have up their sleeves is that the relays do not have the common pin outs! The positions of the pins are the same but they do different things, and using a common relay can have fairly disastrous results.

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

 

Thanks for that Katy, an excellent post and very helpful! I did wonder about the end float issue regarding it's presence or absence in the cars with auto boxes so thanks for confirming that. From some of the owners I've been chatting with on various Maserati chat groups a lot of the issues that plagued the Biturbo era cars have been ironed out, and the later Ghiblis are much better in this respect. I've got my eye on a few Ghiblis at the moment, about two thirds of which are autos (including two of the rare RHD ones). There aren't many books on these cars but I've managed to find two, the Brooklands road test one and the one by John Price Williams which are both very helpful. Although boxy and a little BMW / Audi like in appearance (to some people anyway, but not me!) I find them fascinating and just as exotic in their own way as the more familiar Maseratis of the '60s and '70s. The Ghibli is especially attractive to me partly because of its size, it's smaller than it sometimes appears in photos and will fit in my garage very easily. This one at Dickie Grace's place up in Cheshire is probably the best one on offer at the moment, it's not cheap but Dickie has a very good reputation for finding top notch stuff.... https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1277746 ....there are a few others around at lower asking prices too, including another RHD auto in Oxfordshire which I'm currently enquiring about. (I've also got an eye a very nice RHD QPIV V8 for sale which has full Meridian Maserati history from new, I have soft spot for these four doors).

 

Would love to see some photos of your 222 and hear more about it 

 

I appreciate they're not everyone's cup of tea but they still have something special about them if you care about the Marque and its (full) history, the build quality did improve over time and the Biturbo era keep the company going for almost two decades....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Rugd1022

[steve1]

Talking of Masers, somewhere round here has a new Quattoporte in deep red. Looks the biz and purrs as it wafts by...

 

Mind you, at a quick glance it does look a bit like a a modern big Jag.

 

steve

[Northmoor]

It might be just me but while I find the Biturbo a bit bland-looking, its' engine bay looks utterly gorgeous......

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

My first experience of a left-hand-drive car was a Ferrari F355, for three laps of Thruxton. The clutch was bloomin' heavy - and the gear lever somewhere over there! Arrgh! 

While working in Belgium I bought a lhd Alfa 33. This  got me used to sitting on the left. Down side is the number of times I put my foot on the clutch, went to open the door, realised I needed the other arm and then went to change gear a bit late gave 2nd gear synchro a hard life.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[boxbrownie]

9 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

While working in Belgium I bought a lhd Alfa 33. This  got me used to sitting on the left. Down side is the number of times I put my foot on the clutch, went to open the door, realised I needed the other arm and then went to change gear a bit late gave 2nd gear synchro a hard life.

 

All the best

 

Katy

For years I had as my “company car” (it was really a work vehicle incurring no tax penalties) was a Eddie Bauer Explorer SHO (super high output.....don’t blame me blame the yanks) LHD of course but made travelling through Europe to the shows and test sites which we did at least once a fortnight so much easier, but did cause confusion  with the plod who often pulled us over (out of curiosity I think) when they saw an all American yank on British plates......they would more often than not walk around to the right hand side to chat to the British driver.....to discover I was on the other side .........it’s was a great car which would go just about anywhere we wanted in comfort, but definitely not in economy!  It handled like a oil tanker but never once gave concern running through country lanes as fast as we dare.

[Kickstart]

54 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

Thanks for that Katy, an excellent post and very helpful! I did wonder about the end float issue regarding it's presence or absence in the cars with auto boxes so thanks for confirming that. From some of the owners I've been chatting with on various Maserati chat groups a lot of the issues that plagued the Biturbo era cars have been ironed out, and the later Ghiblis are much better in this respect. I've got my eye on a few Ghiblis at the moment, about two thirds of which are autos (including two of the rare RHD ones). There aren't many books on these cars but I've managed to find two, the Brooklands road test one and the one by John Price Williams which are both very helpful. Although boxy and a little BMW / Audi like in appearance (to some people anyway, but not me!) I find them fascinating and just as exotic in their own way as the more familiar Maseratis of the '60s and '70s. The Ghibli is especially attractive to me partly because of its size, it's smaller than it sometimes appears in photos and will fit in my garage very easily. This one at Dickie Grace's place up in Cheshire is probably the best one on offer at the moment, it's not cheap but Dickie has a very good reputation for finding top notch stuff.... https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1277746 ....there are a few others around at lower asking prices too, including another RHD auto in Oxfordshire which I'm currently enquiring about. (I've also got an eye a very nice RHD QPIV V8 for sale which has full Meridian Maserati history from new, I have soft spot for these four doors).

 

Would love to see some photos of your 222 and hear more about it 

 

I appreciate they're not everyone's cup of tea but they still have something special about them if you care about the Marque and its (full) history, the build quality did improve over time and the Biturbo era keep the company going for almost two decades....

 

 

The problems are not too bad. They did develop them as time went on, and the Ghibli had a pretty good reputation.

 

Problems we have had over the years . Alternator died twice, and then replaced with a Ghibli one and no problems since. Fan relays played up. Fuse box issues (currently looking into this). Speedos can be short lived (seems a very weak signal from the speedo sensor). Window regulators wore. Steering column bush went walkabout. We had the bodywork done a while ago as that was suffering. We have air conditioning issues but can’t trace the leak down, but tbh not looked too hard
 

Personally I like the contradiction between the restrained exterior, tarts boudoir interior and bonkers engine!

 

There are a few books but not many. There were a pair of books on the Biturbo / later turbo cars (plus another on the 3200) but not readily available now. I will dig the details out when I get home (remind me at the weekend if I forget).

 

That Ghibli looks good. The QPIV doesnt seems to be holding its value anything like as well so are a bit of a bargain. I do like them, especially the earlier non evo version.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Kickstart]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

For years I had as my “company car” (it was really a work vehicle incurring no tax penalties) was a Eddie Bauer Explorer SHO (super high output.....don’t blame me blame the yanks) LHD of course but made travelling through Europe to the shows and test sites which we did at least once a fortnight so much easier, but did cause confusion  with the plod who often pulled us over (out of curiosity I think) when they saw an all American yank on British plates......they would more often than not walk around to the right hand side to chat to the British driver.....to discover I was on the other side .........it’s was a great car which would go just about anywhere we wanted in comfort, but definitely not in economy!  It handled like a oil tanker but never once gave concern running through country lanes as fast as we dare.

I had that the day I registered the 33 in the uk. Still on Belgian plates at the time. I was pulled up at a random drink drive road block. First copper walked up to the passenger side, found a passenger and no steering wheel, and had a look of “oh ****” on his face. 2nd came to the drivers side and asked “do you speak English “.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[johnlambert]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Try a 1970’s 911.........you need a left leg like a drag line excavator 

The closest I've been to that was a 1980s 911, which I don't remember being that bad for weight.  Awkward pedal action and location (strange floor hinged things, somewhat offset to clear the wheel arch) but I think the weight was OK.

[Kickstart]

The 222 a few years ago

 

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/HarrietSmall.jpg

 

All the best

 

Katy

[johnlambert]

7 hours ago, Kickstart said:

The automatic has quite a heavy throttle! To be honest though with cars in general, clutch effort can vary massively with the age of the clutch (and where wear has occurred).

 

I actually far prefer manual gearboxes with a clutch pedal, but on the Maserati it works well at avoiding lag. Holding a lower gear (auto or manual) doesn’t work that well to avoid lag as it isn’t so much rpm dependent. Rather needs the turbo to spin up, and in a lower gear you are using less throttle, so less air flow to keep the turbo spinning.

 

Biturbo running costs were actually not that bad , beyond petrol consumption. Issue now appears to be lack of spares, hence prices rocketing of those that are available. Strangely when Ferrari first took over Maserati the spares prices dropped ; almost as though Ferrari were embarrassed that Maserati could charge more for spares. Quite a few bits are nabbed from other cars; years ago we needed a fog light which turned out to be from the late Lancaster Thema, and they were £108 from Maserati and £38 from Lancia.

 

If you do buy a Biturbo (or the later coupes after they stopped calling them that) one trick they have up their sleeves is that the relays do not have the common pin outs! The positions of the pins are the same but they do different things, and using a common relay can have fairly disastrous results.

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

The impression was gleaned at one of the Earl's Court motor shows in the early 1990s (I'd have been 16 or 17 at the time), from memory the Maserati stand at the time had a Manual 430 4v (owner of the aforementioned heavy clutch), 222SR automatic and a Shamal (the clutch of which was noticeably lighter).  There may have been a Spider on the stand too, but I can't remember.

 

I've had a passenger ride in a Biturbo-based Ghibli; I certainly like the combination of sober external appearance and flamboyant interior.  Too many cars seem to have eye-catching styling for the benefit of the rest of the world and boring interiors.

[johnlambert]

7 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

The 222 a few years ago

 

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/HarrietSmall.jpg

 

All the best

 

Katy

The number plate has my initials in almost the right order  

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

More likely the “much lauded”  transverse spring rear suspension with massive positive camber took care of any oversteer..........

 

You have to be able to drive to get the best out of a Herald, it's not as if there's enough power to get you into trouble. If as you should do, you back off the loud pedal just before the bend, put the car into the turn and then open up on the apex, the rear wheels dig in and push you out of the bend. 

If you just throw yourself at a bend, bottle it and lift off, so does the rear end.

I have owned three Heralds and SWMBO has one as her daily driver, the only other car she has driven was some sort of Kia that she refers to as a "Dyson". (Although that's her opinion of anything with wheels made after about 1980, which some people find odd for someone under 30I loved driving them and still borrow hers when I get the chance. The combination of the driving position and the deep bodysides makes it feel as though you're driving a cross between a vintage sports car and a tank. I have always liked the fact that you actually have to drive it.

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

The O was a development of the B, wheras the E was a new engine.

 

https://www.aronline.co.uk/engines/o-series/

https://www.aronline.co.uk/engines/engines-e-series/

The O was a new engine. The B series could not be made to comply with the newest American emission laws so they tried to develop a cleaner OHC version but that was unsuccessful so they restarted with a clean sheet of paper. It wasn't so much a development as a completely new design.

[PatB]

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

More likely the “much lauded”  transverse spring rear suspension with massive positive camber took care of any oversteer..........

Oh, swing axles are OK, as long as you never, ever, back off mid-corner . 

[MJI]

10 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The O was a new engine. The B series could not be made to comply with the newest American emission laws so they tried to develop a cleaner OHC version but that was unsuccessful so they restarted with a clean sheet of paper. It wasn't so much a development as a completely new design.

 

Interesting, the articles say it was based on the B, and has lots of same dimensions

[PhilJ W]

14 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

Interesting, the articles say it was based on the B, and has lots of same dimensions

Based on but not derived from. The cylinder bore and stroke might be the same and it might have other features of the B series but it was a complete redesign. I once had a Reliant Kitten that someone insisted had an Austin engine. He thought that because the Reliant engine had the same capacity as the early Minis, 850 cc notwithstanding the fact that the Reliant engine was all aluminium.  

[Hobby]

He's right it goes on to say that the B development went as far as it could and then stopped, though the name O series was given to it by that time. It's about eleven paras down where it says that the eventual O series shared no parts with the B, though much of what the learned was used in the development, which I suppose applies to most engine development. 

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, johnlambert said:

The closest I've been to that was a 1980s 911, which I don't remember being that bad for weight.  Awkward pedal action and location (strange floor hinged things, somewhat offset to clear the wheel arch) but I think the weight was OK.

The action was more like a light switch.....on—off......

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, PatB said:

Oh, swing axles are OK, as long as you never, ever, back off mid-corner . 

Great if you NEVER have to.

 

The Vitesse was a nice little car with useful power but no matter how good a driver you were backing off through a fast corner would often call for either clean trousers or a call to the local recovery garage. 

 

But if you got through the bend you really did think you could drive