For those interested in old cars.

[5 C]

That Bristol 405 looked amazing, as did the Lancia (Fulvia saloon?) and Alfa Romeo Giulia GT.

 

 

There were lots of very nice vehicles on display today in a wide range of makes, models and eras. The Luton Festival of Transport is an annual event and is well worth a visit. There's plenty of on site parking and a free shuttle bus down to the Vauxhall Heritage Centre for anyone wanting to include that in their visit.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Great to see one. Most were turned into Manta lookalikes and driven into the ground.

 

I worked for Opel UK when the responsibility for GM European car design moved to Germany and we always considered that the Kadett, Ascona, Manta, etc.  were the genuine thing and the VM  versions were the look alikes.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[5 C]

I worked for Opel UK when the responsibility for GM European car design moved to Germany and we always considered that the Kadett, Ascona, Manta, etc.  were the genuine thing and the VM  versions were the look alikes.

 

Even when the Opel network was finally subsumed into Vauxhall in the 1980's, there were many who clung on to the Opel heritage. One dealer on my patch, a former Opel franchisee, was rumoured to re badge new Vauxhalls as Opels for his long standing customers prior to them taking delivery of their new cars, strictly against the dealer agreement.

Edited June 11, 2018 by 5 C

[alastairq]

 

I don't want to drag this excellent corner of RMWeb down by banging on about values, but this afternoon I had a n email from a mate who bought my '69 Mk2 Cooper 998 and restored it, he's too worried about getting it damaged to use it now that he's got an agreed valuation on it. I'm just as bad really, having only used my Cooper S twice in anger since before last Christmas. Conversely though, should a usable SM, Urraco, Merak or Dino 308GT4 fall into my sticky mitts I'd use it as often as possible.

 

I completely agree with that!

 

It really is such a shame.....[and must be an influence on usage to so many?]...........that 'value' has appeared to trump all other considerations, regarding old cars.  [No longer do I hear 'wottle-it-do, Mister?'.....Now it's 'wotsitworth?']

 

I have a pal [really!]...who has the same issue with his Series one Land-Rover.   Bought around the turn of the century, for much the same price as  a tatty series 3, it has its original engine, too.......he always used it for it's intended purpose...pottering around the fields with his dog, looking for pigeons to shoot at....or fetching huge loads of dead wood back for the log burners......To him, it was like owning an old pair of wellies......serviceable, a bit disreputable to look at, but comfy, and no point replacing, for replacing's sake.

 

Until, that is.....he was made an offer by a dealer!!  Then he ad the valuation from the insurance company...and he became frightened to go out in it!!

Thus, he came to seriously considering selling it......to replace it with something far less 'valuable'.

Which is very difficult nowadays....aside from the fact that no-one has made a decent set of automotive wellies any more.

 

Given that he used to just leave his old Series 1 any old place, unlocked [canvas top made nonsense of locking, anyway]....'value' changed his whole attitude.

 

I persuaded him not to sell........the old thing was 'part of the family'....it even had a name....and a personality!

 

But he has departed down the road of inventing innovative anti-theft ideas.....

 

It still gets used as intended......sometimes polished for trips out [to annoy other road users mainly...40 mph is tops.....not for any other reason than, get near 50, and the old bottle goes!   ]

 

Call it revenge, for, like me, having spent 50 years or more 'working' out on the roads, being annoyed by most other road users?

 

Anyway......I have heard that, daily driving one's E-type Jagwar, isn't about subjecting it to 'risk'.........after all, that's why it's insured...the risk is the insurers'......that's what we pay them for?

[Horsetan]

Even when the Opel network was finally subsumed into Vauxhall in the 1980's, there were many who clung on to the Opel heritage. One dealer on my patch, a former Opel franchisee, was rumoured to re badge new Vauxhalls as Opels for his long standing customers prior to them taking delivery of their new cars, strictly against the dealer agreement.

Even now, I occasionally see the odd current Vauxhall badged as an Opel - latest example was a 2004 Zafira last week.

[RANGERS]

Even now, I occasionally see the odd current Vauxhall badged as an Opel - latest example was a 2004 Zafira last week.

We have RHD examples of Opel Zafira, Vectra and Insignificant locally. The latter is one of the first and arrived with its owner from Ireland in about 2010 whilst the Vectra belongs to an ex-RAF man who brought it back from Germany.

[5 C]

Even now, I occasionally see the odd current Vauxhall badged as an Opel - latest example was a 2004 Zafira last week.

 

In the mid-2000's the media highlighted the apparent discrepancy between the list prices of vehicles in the UK compared with Europe and the industry became the subject of a CMA (or whatever they were called then) investigation.

 

It became quite common for RHD vehicles to be imported from the continent at apparently huge savings over the UK equivalent. It affected all manufacturers but it was easy to spot where this had happened on a Vauxhall, as Opel dealers could only order Opels (although they could order RHD) and Vauxhall was a GB & NI only brand. The Republic of Ireland in contrast, is an Opel market.

 

In reality, they weren't quite the bargains they first appeared. The specifications were generally poorer on European market vehicles, even on apparently identical trim levels. The Vauxhall/Opel identity it could be argued, made direct comparisons even more difficult. The wider use of allowances and supported finance rates in the British market meant that the final transaction price was probably closer to the European equivalent with more car for the money. The owners of these bargain vehicles may also have encountered some difficulties with warranty and technical support...

[keefr2]

Anyway......I have heard that, daily driving one's E-type Jagwar, isn't about subjecting it to 'risk'.........after all, that's why it's insured...the risk is the insurers'......that's what we pay them for?

Indeed, but have that £200,000 E-type(or even worse the 2 million + quid Ferrari from earlier in the thread) stolen or torched and just imagine the effect on your next year's premium! The 'risk' may well be the insurers but they don't bear it for nothing.....

[Horsetan]

In the mid-2000's the media highlighted the apparent discrepancy between the list prices of vehicles in the UK compared with Europe and the industry became the subject of a CMA (or whatever they were called then) investigation.

 

It became quite common for RHD vehicles to be imported from the continent at apparently huge savings over the UK equivalent. It affected all manufacturers but it was easy to spot where this had happened on a Vauxhall, as Opel dealers could only order Opels (although they could order RHD) and Vauxhall was a GB & NI only brand. The Republic of Ireland in contrast, is an Opel market.

 

In reality, they weren't quite the bargains they first appeared. The specifications were generally poorer on European market vehicles, even on apparently identical trim levels. The Vauxhall/Opel identity it could be argued, made direct comparisons even more difficult. The wider use of allowances and supported finance rates in the British market meant that the final transaction price was probably closer to the European equivalent with more car for the money. The owners of these bargain vehicles may also have encountered some difficulties with warranty and technical support...

 

If people liked the Opel badge, but preferred the Vauxhall specification, could they not just order Opel badges and replace the Vauxhall ones later?

 

Indeed, but have that £200,000 E-type(or even worse the 2 million + quid Ferrari from earlier in the thread) stolen or torched and just imagine the effect on your next year's premium! The 'risk' may well be the insurers but they don't bear it for nothing.....

 

Lord Brocket tried that approach once. That went well.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Horsetan

[alastairq]

But, I'm not thinking of the mega values...but the ridiculous  so-called 'values' placed on more mundane machinery.   Look at the so-called 'values' of clean Morris Minors, for example? Or Ford Escorts? {FFS???]. I know a car's value , in reality, is only what someone is prepared to pay for it...but, even so?

[Horsetan]

But, I'm not thinking of the mega values...but the ridiculous  so-called 'values' placed on more mundane machinery.   Look at the so-called 'values' of clean Morris Minors, for example? Or Ford Escorts? {FFS???]. I know a car's value , in reality, is only what someone is prepared to pay for it...but, even so?

 

If by some miracle the values of Citroen CXs rise across the board, I'll be happy.

[5 C]

 

If people liked the Opel badge, but preferred the Vauxhall specification, could they not just order Opel badges and replace the Vauxhall ones later?

 

 

 

Nothing to stop them, providing they could get hold of the badges (probably easiest via the Republic of Ireland) and they wanted a right hand drive car. The badges go in the same place and are usually designed to fit in the same recesses. Pull off the griffin on the radiator grille of some models and you'll find an Opel blitz underneath. 

 

The issue with parallel imports was that people were unaware or didn't care that the car wore an Opel badge - they just thought they were getting the equivalent to a Vauxhall at a huge saving, which wasn't necessarily the case.

[runs as required]

Is that the same one that was used in the recent Agatha Christie thing on the telly?

I believe it to be a 405 4 door with little stubby fins at the rear - still with the 2 litre 1940  BMW engine. IIRRC it has spare wheel(s) concealed indide the front wings in the classic 1930s coachbuilt position

Bristols could never decide whether to be cars built by an aeroplane company (a la Matra) or a retro spec 'gentleman's express'. My dad always pointed them out as costing twice as much as our house

dh

[Horsetan]

I believe it to be a 405 4 door with little stubby fins at the rear - still with the 2 litre 1940  BMW engine.....

 

The 405 was the only four-door that Bristol produced.

[johnlambert]

I believe it to be a 405 4 door with little stubby fins at the rear - still with the 2 litre 1940  BMW engine. IIRRC it has spare wheel(s) concealed indide the front wings in the classic 1930s coachbuilt position

Bristols could never decide whether to be cars built by an aeroplane company (a la Matra) or a retro spec 'gentleman's express'. My dad always pointed them out as costing twice as much as our house

dh

Yes, it's a 405.  Although based on the 1930s BMW straight six Bristol's engine was different in detail (imperial rather than metric parts and much better alloys).  The spare wheel lived behind the nearside front wing, the battery and fuses in the equivalent compartment on the offside.  A layout first used on the Bristol 404 and retained on every subsequent model except for the Bristol Fighter.

 

Technically only the Bristol 400, 401, 402, 403, 404 and 405 were made the aircraft company.  Due to re-organisations within the British AIrcraft industry the car business became separate, owned jointly by Sir George White and Anthony Crook.  The 406 (the last six-cylinder Bristol) and all the V8/V10 cars were produced by Bristol Cars rather than the Car Division of the Bristol Aircraft Company.

 

The 405 was the only four-door that Bristol produced.

It was indeed.

[alastairq]

Bristol Fighter is a most under-rated motor car.....IMHO.....

[johnlambert]

Talking of Bristols here's a 400 that I snapped at a classic car show yesterday.

 

 

There was also a (relatively) new Bristol Blenheim

 

 

And, in the spirit of Anglo-American cars, there was this gorgeous Gordon Keeble GK1.

 

[runs as required]

  ...Due to re-organisations within the British AIrcraft industry the car business became separate, owned jointly by Sir George White and Anthony Crook.  The 406 (the last six-cylinder Bristol) and all the V8/V10 cars were produced by Bristol Cars rather than the Car Division of the Bristol Aircraft Company.....

It always intrigued me how the same 1890s looking logo

appeared on separate companies that made Aeroplanes, cars that raced at Le Mans and sturdy Tilling Buses. When I first visited Bristol I was amazed to find the same logo on the side of the City Councils's buses too!.

 

The link turns out not to be Isambard Kingdom as I first suspected but Sir George White's great grandfather (the first Baronet) who built up the largest Victorian tramways company from Bristol (hence the copperplate logo). It eventually controlled London's and the Empire's tramways.

 

At the turn of the 19/20 centuries he saw the future as being buses and in the years before the Great War made the first Bristol aeroplanes and the famous Bristol Fighter (made in the tramsheds).

After WW II the Bristol Aeroplane Co diversified into cars (with the spoils of war from BMW) and the bus manufacturer got nationalised into the British Transport Commission along with the GWR.etc.

Amd the rest, as they say, is history....

 

We now have a new Chinese MG Dealership open in Durham!)

dh

[Rugd1022]

That gorgeous Gordon Keeble GT is the same one I saw on the A34 near Oxford a few weeks ago.... a stunning piece of kit.

[steve1]

 

Gordon Keeble GK1

 

They were built in Slough and their showroom was opposite the bus stop I used to get home after school.

 

Surprisingly, Slough has quite a history of vehicle building.

 

steve

[johnlambert]

They were built in Slough and their showroom was opposite the bus stop I used to get home after school.

 

Surprisingly, Slough has quite a history of vehicle building.

 

steve

Indeed it does, with Citroen building some Traction Avants, 2CVs and DS models there.  I think Citroen's uk headquarters is still there (unless it's moved to Coventry as part of the Peugeot HQ).

[johnlambert]

A few more from Sunday - a selection of Italians and French.

 

If memory serves me right, the Gordon Keeble in my last post had styling by Bertone.  The same styling house did the Alfa Romeo Giulia GT series.  There were several in attendance but this 1300 GT Junior was my favourite.

 

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a Fiat 850 Coupé, in fact I'm not sure I've ever seen one before.

 

 

If you fancy something a bit older there was this Alfa Romeo 6C 1750

 

 

An Italian with a French connection; Maserati Khamsin, V8 engine plus Citroen hydraulics to assist the clutch, steering and power the brakes.

 

 

If you prefer your Citroen hydraulics in a more practical package there was this very tidy Citroen BX 4x4

 

 

[Horsetan]

 

....Slough has quite a history of vehicle building.

 

steve

  Indeed it does, with Citroen building some Traction Avants, 2CVs and DS models there.....

All building had stopped by 1966. Wonder why? The Slough-built DSs had interiors that were slightly different from the French-built cars.

[johnlambert]

Final selection.

 

Vast Ford Galaxie Country Squire

 

 

Tiny NSU Prinz

 

 

Unusual Morris MO van

 

 

Supercharged MG

 

 

There were lots of Triumph TR5s, this was one of the nicest.

 

 

I don't know much about TVRs but this one was very tidy.

 

 

It was nice to see some cars with evidence of use, this Bentley 3 litre sported impressive selection of squashed bugs.

 

 

[Kickstart]

In reality, they weren't quite the bargains they first appeared. The specifications were generally poorer on European market vehicles, even on apparently identical trim levels. The Vauxhall/Opel identity it could be argued, made direct comparisons even more difficult. The wider use of allowances and supported finance rates in the British market meant that the final transaction price was probably closer to the European equivalent with more car for the money. The owners of these bargain vehicles may also have encountered some difficulties with warranty and technical support...

 

My father had an Alfa 156 that came from southern Ireland. Price saving was substantial (about 1/3 cheaper). Spec was different, but not necessarily worse. Possibly better depending on what you liked.

 

If people liked the Opel badge, but preferred the Vauxhall specification, could they not just order Opel badges and replace the Vauxhall ones later?

Suspect much of it is that Opel is seen as a more up market "German" brand. In some ways I am surprised that GM didn't dump the Vauxhall brand name many years ago.

 

All the best

 

Katy