For those interested in old cars.

[alastairq]

4 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Largely because they have built in safety features required by law. Perhaps the size (width) of the average  person has also increased.

 

You could always go back to the day of the sliding window Mini where the only thing between you and a side collision was the door panel and its layer of vinyl trim

 Don't forget the contents of the door pocket?

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Took one of the Ambassador too...!

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

Had one of them and three Princesses,  still the most comfortable cars I've ever travelled in.

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Largely because they have built in safety features required by law. Perhaps the size (width) of the average  person has also increased.

You could always go back to the day of the sliding window Mini where the only thing between you and a side collision was the door panel and its layer of vinyl trim

Good idea. Lots of resource saved, will weigh less so use less fuel (electric or otherwise) and more room to pass on narrow roads. Compared to walking (or the bike I ride) it's still wasteful though.

[russ p]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Took one of the Ambassador too...!

 

 

 

 

Ambassador VDP I believe those and the HLS had a vacuum gauge in the instruments

This one looks nice apart from wrong type of fog lamp and modern font on numberplate 

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Largely because they have built in safety features required by law. Perhaps the size (width) of the average  person has also increased.

 

You could always go back to the day of the sliding window Mini where the only thing between you and a side collision was the door panel and its layer of vinyl trim

Plus, all the manufacturers want to be able to claim that their models offer more for your money!

[Jol Wilkinson]

13 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Good idea. Lots of resource saved, will weigh less so use less fuel (electric or otherwise) and more room to pass on narrow roads. Compared to walking (or the bike I ride) it's still wasteful though.

 

Lots of resource saved? Or do we just dump the safety features and keep the other modern conveniences?

 

How else will those younger generations who have learned to drive with ABS, PAS, SatNav, 8 speaker sound systems, multiple cup holders, self levelling headlights, self dimming mirrors,  etc. manage? They haven't learned about maintaining safe distances at speed, parking with heavy steering (e.g. Mk2 Cortina), reading the road ahead to maintain steady progress with low powered cars, fuel consumption in the low thirties or worse in a family car. When I drove my MGB (which I sadly had to give up a couple of years ago) I had no difficulty with any of that because that is how I learned to drive. I don't think a lot of drivers would cope safely now.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Good idea. Lots of resource saved, will weigh less so use less fuel (electric or otherwise) and more room to pass on narrow roads. Compared to walking (or the bike I ride) it's still wasteful though.

Horses for courses. I'm temporarily car-less and the journey I'm taking today by train and bus will take nearly 2 hours against 45 mins if driving. On a bike, most of the morning, walking, most of the day!

Edited August 23, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[BernardTPM]

Which doesn't take away from the idea that a lighter, smaller, more minimal car would save fuel and resources and still do the journey in around 45 minutes.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, BernardTPM said:

Which doesn't take away from the idea that a lighter, smaller, more minimal car would save fuel and resources and still do the journey in around 45 minutes.

Always supposing you aren't wiped out by an existing safe car en-route.

 

Any idea of rowing back on crash resistance standards is pure fantasy.

[BernardTPM]

If it's going to crash into another vehicle then it isn't really safe.

 

Anyway, I'd take the train...

Edited August 23, 2023 by BernardTPM

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

If it's going to crash into another vehicle then it isn't really safe.

 

Anyway, I'd take the train...

It's other vehicles potentially crashing into you that's the problem.

 

I remember a case years ago of a Mini driver killed when T-boned by a relatively small motorcycle. No significant protection provided and clesrly no"safer" than being on the bike, the rider of which survived.

 

John

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[alastairq]

I have no trains within a 6 mile radius...and couldn't afford the fare any way.

I have no buses within a now-2 mile distance from home....and the walk to the nearest bus stop is very cross-country, without any sort of footpath or lighting.

 

So, I use my cars to get about. Cheaper at the point of usage.

On the subject of car safety, I agree it is a useful asset.

But in the 55 years I have been driving, mostly for a living, I haven't had to rely on any form of 'safety' feature whatsoever.  Not even a seatbelt. 

Which isn't to say I have never had a so-called 'accident'....Far from it...But, whatever I have been driving, no-one has ever brought a successful claim against me...

 

A lot of the above is down to driver abilities....If I worried about being side-swiped in my Dellow, I'd never ever leave home...and even 'home' wouldnt be 'safe!'

 

It's all about minimising the risks...lowering the risk factor...

I'm not a 'perfect' driver by any means...sometimes I'm even 'naughty'...I can, and do, make 'mistakes'....But hopefully, I will continue to not make an ''impact'' of any sort on other road users...

I cannot recall the last time I had to take any sort of evasive action..[OK, during the past 7 years I haven't been as 'exposed' to the roads as much as I was when 'working' for a living.]  My 72 year old Dellow, with its mechanical brakes, would cope, no doubt...Although it could get quite squashed should I lose the plot...

But I'd go anywhere in it [within reason, and a plentiful supply of oil]...

I'm not even sure the windbags in my daily 500 quid Suzuki even work now...it's 21 years since it left the main dealer...

 

An awfully high percentage of the incidents involving cars & bikes round here seem to be of the 'single vehicle' variety...so perhaps we need protecting  more from ourselves?

An awful lot of the fatalities round here also involve new {-ish, perhaps?] cars...?  Which suggests to me that modern technology doesn't prevent us from kharking it.

But, as I get older & older, I become aware of the fact that my body is nowhere near as robust as it used to be. So perhaps a lot of the fatalities might involve older people, who simply do not survive the considerable shaking up?

 

 

 

[30368]

If I may, it is clear that modern cars are very much larger then those of fifty or more years ago. I used to have a FIAT 500 back in the 1960's and when I see one now I cannot see how I even got in the thing! (I am 6' 2" and fairly slim so its not that I have spread that much.) A few years back I have a lovely modern ABARTH 595 which I thought was tiny compared to my other motors but it was huge compared to the original.

 

The thought of going back to the flimsy vehicles of yesteryear fills me with horror, I am all for as much safety kit as possible and this includes structural integrity too. I like to think that I am a thoughtful driver but however skilled and careful I am that won't save me from someone who has made a mistake and lost control so the primary and secondary safety features of modern cars are well worth while. It is also true that the reliabilty and quality of modern cars is more than welcome compared to those primative vehicles of yore.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

17 hours ago, alastairq said:

I have no trains within a 6 mile radius...and couldn't afford the fare any way.

I have no buses within a now-2 mile distance from home....and the walk to the nearest bus stop is very cross-country, without any sort of footpath or lighting.

 

So, I use my cars to get about. Cheaper at the point of usage.

On the subject of car safety, I agree it is a useful asset.

But in the 55 years I have been driving, mostly for a living, I haven't had to rely on any form of 'safety' feature whatsoever.  Not even a seatbelt. 

Which isn't to say I have never had a so-called 'accident'....Far from it...But, whatever I have been driving, no-one has ever brought a successful claim against me...

 

A lot of the above is down to driver abilities....If I worried about being side-swiped in my Dellow, I'd never ever leave home...and even 'home' wouldnt be 'safe!'

 

It's all about minimising the risks...lowering the risk factor...

I'm not a 'perfect' driver by any means...sometimes I'm even 'naughty'...I can, and do, make 'mistakes'....But hopefully, I will continue to not make an ''impact'' of any sort on other road users...

I cannot recall the last time I had to take any sort of evasive action..[OK, during the past 7 years I haven't been as 'exposed' to the roads as much as I was when 'working' for a living.]  My 72 year old Dellow, with its mechanical brakes, would cope, no doubt...Although it could get quite squashed should I lose the plot...

But I'd go anywhere in it [within reason, and a plentiful supply of oil]...

I'm not even sure the windbags in my daily 500 quid Suzuki even work now...it's 21 years since it left the main dealer...

 

An awfully high percentage of the incidents involving cars & bikes round here seem to be of the 'single vehicle' variety...so perhaps we need protecting  more from ourselves?

An awful lot of the fatalities round here also involve new {-ish, perhaps?] cars...?  Which suggests to me that modern technology doesn't prevent us from kharking it.

But, as I get older & older, I become aware of the fact that my body is nowhere near as robust as it used to be. So perhaps a lot of the fatalities might involve older people, who simply do not survive the considerable shaking up?

 

 

 

Whenever I hear of "single vehicle collisions" (oxymoron alert?) I, perhaps callously, rejoice that the driver involved didn't take anyone else out in the process! 

 

I understand that, where elderly drivers are involved, a fair few of them have had "medical events" and are either unconscious or already dead at the moment of impact.

 

John

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling
punctuation

[jcredfer]

5 hours ago, 30368 said:

.....

 

The thought of going back to the flimsy vehicles of yesteryear fills me with horror, I am all for as much safety kit as possible and this includes structural integrity too. I like to think that I am a thoughtful driver but however skilled and careful I am that won't save me from someone who has made a mistake and lost control so the primary and secondary safety features of modern cars are well worth while. It is also true that the reliabilty and quality of modern cars is more than welcome compared to those primative vehicles of yore.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

 

I had an experience, such as you describe, today.  Driving along a roomy two way road, at just below the 30 MPH limit.  Quite wide and enough for a line of parked cars, leaving plenty of room for cars to pass in opposing directions.  Nothing visible coming the other way.  Nice easy driving, you might be forgiven for thinking.....

 

.....   until a lady, in a very  much smaller car shot out from a side road, on the right hand side, without looking, without stopping / slowing at the junction, until she heard the shriek of tyres and brakes of the Freelander II, very few yards to her left!!  Fortunately for her, she reacted quickly enough to allow 6 inches clearance for me to squeeze through.  Even with modern defences, her vehicle was far too small to give her decent protection from a vehicle 3 / 4 times the size of the one she drove out in front of.

 

We stopped at some traffic lights a couple of hundred yards further on and she was still looking pale, shaken and thoughtful.  With any luck (for her and other road users) she will afford some time for a proper look before entering a road, from a side junction.

 

 

[Hobby]

20 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I remember a case years ago of a Mini driver killed when T-boned by a relatively small motorcycle. No significant protection provided and clearly no"safer" than being on the bike, the rider of which survived.

 

I feel using one example is hardly proof that being in a Mini is no safer than riding a motorbike. Statistics would prove otherwise I suspect, were they available. Depending on the speed the bike hit the car I suspect that many small cars would suffer the same way, even new ones, though later Minis (90s onwards?) had strengthening bars fitted to the doors which the earlier ones didn't (especially the first ones with sliding windows!) so it would be interesting to know more about the crash, age of car, size and speed of bike, etc.

 

The original Mini is actually quite a strong car, they crash tested one only a few years ago and it stayed mainly in shape, but there's another issue, modern cars are designed to crumple to reduce the forces of the impact, the Mini and others from that era don't, they are either "strong" or just collapse.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

49 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I feel using one example is hardly proof that being in a Mini is no safer than riding a motorbike. Statistics would prove otherwise I suspect, were they available. Depending on the speed the bike hit the car I suspect that many small cars would suffer the same way, even new ones, though later Minis (90s onwards?) had strengthening bars fitted to the doors which the earlier ones didn't (especially the first ones with sliding windows!) so it would be interesting to know more about the crash, age of car, size and speed of bike, etc.

 

The original Mini is actually quite a strong car, they crash tested one only a few years ago and it stayed mainly in shape, but there's another issue, modern cars are designed to crumple to reduce the forces of the impact, the Mini and others from that era don't, they are either "strong" or just collapse.

 

 

A fairly freakish incident, I'd agree, and I wouldn't suggest for a moment that a bike is inherently safer than a Mini.

 

It was a long time ago, so I'd guess a fairly early Mini, and I think it was a 250 Honda, so 350lb or thereabouts? I once had comparable (4-stroke) Suzuki twin that was in that ballpark.  Speed I don't know, but the biker was said to have gone over the top and made a reasonably painless landing, so probably not massive.

 

Had it been a 600lb Harley, it might well have come out the other side, but they were extremely rare over here back then!

 

TBH, while I never had a Mini, a few of my pals did. In those pre-seatbelt days, I always felt very vulnerable as a passenger in them. There was only a (fairly distant and rudimentary) parcel shelf and the windscreen between you and the world outside. In an impact, I reckoned the former would do for my knees on my way to passing through the latter. The doors on the early ones felt/sounded little less flimsy than the side-screens on another mate's old MG.

 

I wouldn't have wanted to be in any Mini that collided with a car of the kind I drove at the time (my Ford Pop or my Dad's Hillman Minx).     

 

John

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

I had a couple of accidents in the ones I had, no damage to me, though the car itself bent! They were better than many cars around at the time but worse than others. I never felt unsafe in one, though I did when in a Spitfire or Midget, and even the more modern Westfields. If you watch that video you'll see that your worries were unfounded, though as it says the issue is the sudden stop which in modern cars is addressed with crumple zones, pre tensioned seat belts and airbags. Size and weight have always counted against small cars, though judging by Mr Bean I'd rather be in a Mini than a Robin!!

[Dunsignalling]

47 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I had a couple of accidents in the ones I had, no damage to me, though the car itself bent! They were better than many cars around at the time but worse than others. I never felt unsafe in one, though I did when in a Spitfire or Midget, and even the more modern Westfields. If you watch that video you'll see that your worries were unfounded, though as it says the issue is the sudden stop which in modern cars is addressed with crumple zones, pre tensioned seat belts and airbags. Size and weight have always counted against small cars, though judging by Mr Bean I'd rather be in a Mini than a Robin!!

Driving a Mini felt completely different (altogether safer) with the steering wheel in front of me than on the other side, where it seemed I was half-way out of the car to begin with!

 

In reality with no collapsible column it was probably more hazardous! I'd never have bought one though, as (despite being only 5'7") I could never attain a comfortable driving position in them. Always felt like I was on it rather than in it.

 

Never felt scared in another mate's (tweaked) Series 3  Lotus 7 as I'd taken it closer to the limit than he ever got! I did later put the willies up him by showing him some of what he was missing, and didn't get another solo drive in it. ☹️

 

John

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[30368]

The problem with the fifth gear test is that it is not controlled in the way that Euro tests are. You can compare results with the Euro NCAP because they are to a consistant standard) Actual crashes are different and very, very random with a huge number of variable that all contribute to the result.

 

Many years ago I crashed a Mini - I had collected it from its service for my daughter, it was her car. I specifically mentioned to the national service agency that the brakes pulled to the right. As I discovered my specific request for investigation and rectification had seemingly been ignored. Driving down a country road with tree lined banks on either side a car pulled out from a side road directly into my path, I swerved to avoid the vehicle only to see headlights coming towards me so I braked hard, the car swerved to the right, went up the bank and then turned over many times. I thought I was to meet my maker, it took for ever for the sparks, noise and tumbling to stop. When it did the car was back on its wheels in the middle of the road I got out (yes the door opened) the roof of the car was crushed except the corner over my head! The windscreen had gone but the wipers were still working.  All the wee bunnies and teddy bears that sat on the parcels shelf were arrayed along the bank staring at me with disgust....

 

So the outcome of this Mini crash was positive thanks goodness but the interaction of all the forces involved were unique and no measure of how well the original mini's secondary safety would score in NCAP. I would much rather have been in my wife's BMW MIni Clubman! or rather not on that road at that time at all!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Dunsignalling]

Whatever Einstein's theory might state, if you are in a car that's rolling over, time behaves differently!

 

John

Edited August 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[30368]

58 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Whatever Einstein's theory might state, if you are in a car that's rolling over, time behaves differently!

 

 

I could not agree more. I had so much time to observe what was happening and then thinking about the meaning of life etc.. it seemed to go on for ever.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[alastairq]

Earlier, I mentioned Morgan undergoing the German crash testing, and passing. 

Despite having an ash-framed body tub.  {Plus a steel chassis]

 

IIRC, the main observation by the German authorities was that the Morgan suffered little or no interior intrusion, when compared to the modern vehicles.

 

On the subject of steering columns?

 

I agree [if I were truly bovered about it] that on an old car with a straight column,there is the danger of it becoming an assegai in a head-on collision...But, using modern technology [AKA the scrap yard]..it isn't beyond the capabilities of a reasonably competent enthusiast to substitute the essential components to turn a rigid column into one which has a mechanical 'weak link' inserted. A U/J, for example? Or like Land Rover Defenders, a wobbly joint?  [Note, to those in the other driving thread, Defender isn't name suitable for all land rovers ever made...only those with coily sprungs and ruddy gert location bars for the axles]

 

A venerable Dellow fellow who had a need for more power in his Dellow..also had an issue with a worn out  steering box. these were subtly unique to Dellows, in that they had a quite low ratio[mne is less than one turn, lock to lock]...and his was ker-nakered....So, in true enthusiast fashion, he substituted a more modern, split steering column, and a single ended rack [from a FIAT, I believe?]...onto the remainder of the slightly modified Dellow steering linkage [quite like that of a Ford Pop, seeing as the Dellow front axles were Ford Poop items]]...Thus netting two bodz with one stone, more or less....He got  a more relaxing steering column, and a more ''positive' steering rack instead of the vaguely accurate , worn out steering box.

His engine was , IIRC, a Rover 1.8 unit.....rear axle was,I think, Anglia 105E-based, with a 4 star diff conversion.

Mine' original [probably not,as it happens] Ford Pop rear axle and 3 speed gearbox, 100E sidevalve engine...

Thus I can roar around London without it costing me a bean, so to speak, choking all the yuppies over their gucci coffees...It does consume oil rather nicely if I take right hand corners in the time honoured  ''ear 'ole'' fashion...something  a Dellow is remarkably good at.....I can corner tight bends faster than my old mates on their fancy big motorcycles....They catch me obviously on the straight bits, but cannot take sharp narrow bends as quick as I could.....The top road twixt Richmond & Barnard Castle proved that, on a 'mates' holiday...Something we used to do regularly when I worked...they would be  on the motorcycles, me in the Dellow...[I didn't have a motorcycle....couldn't get my right leg over one easily...]

I do have a physical 'weakness' in that I suffered a compound tib & Fib when riding a motorcycle, and having a near head on with an old type mini, on a very narrow bendy country lane, ant 11PM one night. [I was a shift working bus driver]

My right leg hit his right side front wing, destroying the wing, as it happened....The left side of my bike, and me, were totally 'untouched'...

Now over 40 years later, the right leg swells up enormously, due to old age, hypertension [treated], and  lessening of blood circulation...I was warned this would happen, 40 years ago...Left leg doesn't swell much at all.  Gives me a 'trouser' problem..I can get them on in the morning, but struggle to get them off at night.

Also, I find it difficult to 'cock my leg' over a bike saddle....

Yet, I can get in  my Dellow fine...more or less.  Thus far, I have never fallen over with the Dellow ....If I fell off a motorcycle, I guess t my age I wouldn't brush off the bruising and ignominy quite as easily as I used to?

 

One day I will replace the valve guides to cut the oil consumption somewhat...20/50 oil with high ZDDP content isn't getting any cheaper these days.

Edited August 24, 2023 by alastairq

[Hobby]

Can you link to that, Alastair, as the EuroNCAP website doesn't list them. I suspect you are talking about the limited production test for cars with low production numbers, which is not the same as the full test. I can't see a Morgan "passing" the full test  though my understanding is that it's a rating system, cars don't fail it as such just have a low rating. The Rover 100 suffered that. At the end of the day if I wanted to travel in a safe car a Morgan wouldn't be on my shortlist. 

[Hobby]

A quick search later, from the Morgan website is this:

 

"New Morgan models are crash tested and type approved under the European small series approval. The latest Plus Four and Plus Six models feature driver and passenger airbags as standard, the Morgan Super 3 does not feature airbags."

 

Its not the same as NCAP tests, for a start a car with a ridged chassis like the Morgan wouldn't have crumple zones as far as I'm aware?