For those interested in old cars.

[alastairq]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

nd such 'replacement reconstructions' have bedevilled the classic car world for decades. At which point does a vehicle become "authentic"? Chassis rails? Engine? Oil pressure gauge?

For a Morgan 3 wheeler [F2 F4 etc] the gearbox is the numbered key component. Unique to Morgans.

Morgan chassis, even up to today, can be had new [or, used?] quite freely. Indeed, for older Morgans it can be cheaper than going through the whole renovation business, to buy a new chassis [from GeeDees, for example?]  After all, what is a 'chassis' frame if not simply a bunch of steel shapes, stuck together?

Morgans traditionally have required a new body tub [just the rear bit really] every decade or so, as the ash frames 'work' and become unusable.

For the Morgan F types, the engines started out as Ford 8 HP sidevalves....Easily swapped or uprated, as any half decent sports car should be if the owner 'developed' it properly. 

Given that Ford themselves recommended overhaul [or replacement] of their engines at around the 20000 mile mark..and sold quite cheaply, rebuilt engines...much like BMCs Gold Seal engines...

 

It is rare indeed to find a 70 or 80 year old car that still has its original engine. Or gearbox. Or, indeed, has not had some damage repairs conducted.

 

Then, what about interiors? Do we shun the old car that has had a re-trim? Better still, shun the old car for not sporting original type of paint, why not? [That would stop all the 2 pack jobbies for starters]

The Morgan F2 has but two chassis rails. Plus, the head frame, which often needed renewing anyway [it carried the front, sliding pillar suspension]

The Radiator was a difficult bit, as I recall, but they are available...even new, apparently.  [Mine, luckily, had been nickel plated by a long dead previous owner....the 'shell' is part of the radiator itself, so gets hot too....much to my amusement in car parks. I once owned a '39 Morgan 4/4 4 seater]

 

Seats? Well, just how or what did Morgan use?   

The F2/F4 body tub is exactly that...a tub....and can be replaced as wear & tear take their toll.

For the F2, the gearbox number gave it the all important identity.  [I contributed a refurbished Ford `100E engine for my sins...a definite upgrade over the orignal 8 HP engine]

Mind one intrepid Morgan F2 enthusiast developed his car to the extent it finally sported a Ford crossflow 1600 motor..which could see off any MGB around, in its time.

 

No old vehicle will be 'authentic'....[and therefore likely unusable anyway?]

Vehicle consumables see to that!

 

As for 'oil pressure gauges?'

Well, when a vehicle was around 5 or 10 years old, and the original [but likely not very good?] oil pressure gauge gave up...would it not be fine for the owner to replace it with a newer one...perhaps from a BMC sports car or somesuch? Or, whatever they could find in the local scrap yard?

 

Well, all fine n dandy if one is intent on creating an almost-mobile museum piece.

But if one is intent on actually using ones handywork for the purpose for which it was intended.....for personal reasons....[instead of succumbing to buying, at vast expense all round, a new hair dryer electric car }  then, rather than leaving the chassis rail & gearbox sadly lying on the junk heap [for, junk is what they truthfully were]...better to add the few other bits to produce the original car ...??

 

Reminds me of when I collected my Dellow from Southampton docks on repatriation to the UK...?

 

A couple of really ancient gents were having a Jaguar XK 140 {?} ''shell'' forked onto their trailer. Not much was left below the waistline of the shell.

Few, if any mechanical bits present.....

When I enquired as to the reasoning, one gent told me....they had a shell [or what was left of it] which still carried it's ID plates from the factory....The chassis number, effectively.

 

As for all the rest?

Well, he said, everything mechanical was available via the trade [at a price, I suppose?].

Engnes, gearboxes, axles, suspensions, trim, seats, interiors, etc are[were?] all replaceable items...The 'originality ' of the vehicle ...it's original identity, came from that all important chassis plate thingy. [Sorry, I know little of old Jagwars]

By now, if the gents have survived, they would have returned yet another Jag XK 140{?} to the land of the living, I hope.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by alastairq

[Dunsignalling]

It all does beg the question, though as to at what point a "restoration" crosses over into replication....

 

My own take is that the borderline is when new "pattern" content and fabrication exceeds whatever came from the original vehicle, scrapped examples of the same model or "new old stock" parts.

 

John

Edited August 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Lord Flashheart]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

It all does beg the question, though as to at what point a "restoration" crosses over into replication....

 

My own take is that the borderline is when new "pattern" content and fabrication exceeds whatever came from the original vehicle, scrapped examples of the same model or "new old stock" parts.

 

John

A lot of the mk1/2 Escort restorations I see on the various Facebook pages are like that,mostly a pile of new panels welded together with very little of the original shell left,some very good quality work going on though. 

 

Rob 

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, Lord Flashheart said:

A lot of the mk1/2 Escort restorations I see on the various Facebook pages are like that,mostly a pile of new panels welded together with very little of the original shell left,some very good quality work going on though. 

 

Rob 

Most of these rebuilds seem to be drastically better-made than anything that ever came out of Dagenham or Halewood! 

 

About five times as much paint on them, too.

 

Very impressive, but "Better than they rolled out" equals customisation rather than restoration in my book.

 

Beyond mere authenticity? 🙂

 

John

Edited August 21, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

9 hours ago, 30368 said:

The 275GTB was the very first Ferrari road car that I spotted back in 1965 or so. The Maserati 4200 Coupe was loosely modelled on the 275.

The cars in the background are, I think, and reading left to right:

 

Ferrari 365 Daytona, a modified 308 GTB, Ferrari 330GTC Spyder.

 

I can't see enough of the RH car to decide which V12 Ferrari it is.

Yes, 275GTBs were actually seen on the road, it's true - I certainly saw two or three. But as I've said before, my first Ferrari sighting was a blue 250 Lusso, belonging to and driven by Rob Walker. ROB2 was the number. My late friend Peter and I chatted to him while fuel was being added at Pippbrook Garage, which he owned.

 

In the same way that Maseratis should have 8 cylinders, so Ferraris should have 12.... 

[Oldddudders]

Talking of reconstructions and renovated oldies, do these two qualify?

 

 

They were, on separate evenings, being displayed by proud owners outside The Little Theatre, Torquay, where for the last fortnight Dad's Army was on stage. 

[steve1]

Seen at the local Leisure Centre last evening, where, coincidentally, our model railway group were meeting.

 

steve

 

 

[steve1]

Nice rally jacket! Remember them? Car’s not bad either…

 

steve

 

 

[30368]

4 minutes ago, steve1 said:

Nice rally jacket! Remember them? Car’s not bad either…

 

 

Quite a good driver too....

[Oldddudders]

Sir Jock McArmco. He pushed for higher levels of circuit safety. A theme being echoed even now. 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, steve1 said:

Seen at the local Leisure Centre last evening, where, coincidentally, our model railway group were meeting.

 

steve

 

 

It looks rather small compared to the modern cars around it.

[alastairq]

1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

It looks rather small compared to the modern cars around it.

 Indeed, the difference is most marked.

 

My '67 Ford Mustang coupe....considered by many i the UK to be a 'large' car [perhaps an illusion based on the knowledge it is American?]

Yet, its overall 'footprint' is slightly smaller than the last iteration of Ford UK's Mondeo.

Whilst, inside, it is nearly 11 inches wider at shoulder height.

Indeed, most spacious for a 'small', cheap, American car..

[Rugd1022]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Sir Jock McArmco. He pushed for higher levels of circuit safety. A theme being echoed even now. 

 

It's easy to forget how much grief JYS received for ploughing that particular furrow at the time, old 'Jenks' of Motorsport magazine was constantly sticking the boot in in his monthly GP articles.

[Northmoor]

17 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

It's easy to forget how much grief JYS received for ploughing that particular furrow at the time, old 'Jenks' of Motorsport magazine was constantly sticking the boot in in his monthly GP articles.

Agreed, Max Mosley was also very dismissive.  I'm sure I heard it said some years ago that statistically, there were over 100 F1 drivers (and countless others from other formulas) still alive today who would be dead were it not for the safety measures that Sir Jackie demanded.  It is jaw-dropping now to read the response from the motorsport authorities to what was being asked for at the time; the drivers' weren't asking to drive between padded fences, but if they did crash, it would be nice to know there were enough marshals to get their (perhaps unconscious) body out of the wreckage and make sure they didn't burn to death.  Not too much to ask really, was it?

[Rugd1022]

8 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Agreed, Max Mosley was also very dismissive.  I'm sure I heard it said some years ago that statistically, there were over 100 F1 drivers (and countless others from other formulas) still alive today who would be dead were it not for the safety measures that Sir Jackie demanded.  It is jaw-dropping now to read the response from the motorsport authorities to what was being asked for at the time; the drivers' weren't asking to drive between padded fences, but if they did crash, it would be nice to know there were enough marshals to get their (perhaps unconscious) body out of the wreckage and make sure they didn't burn to death.  Not too much to ask really, was it?

 

Jackie's quest started when he was sitting in his damaged car surrounded by fuel at Spa in '66 after leaving the circuit, he was sat there for half an hour before anyone could get him out. By 1970 he was really on the ball and remembers now attending three funerals in as many weeks, all of them close friends too, not just rivals on the track.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Rugd1022

[Rugd1022]

Some pics of the show I took the Maser to on Sunday, just outside Coleshill...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rugd1022]

 

 

 

 

 

[30368]

1 hour ago, Rugd1022 said:

It's easy to forget how much grief JYS received for ploughing that particular furrow at the time, old 'Jenks' of Motorsport magazine was constantly sticking the boot in in his monthly GP articles.

 

Yes I remember Denis Jenkinson - very reactionary chap. Didn't he co-drive with Sterling Moss in a Merc SLR in the 1955 Mille Miglia? I guess that gave him some licence.....

 

I remember watching on the BBC  Lorenzo Bandini crash at Monaco in 1967 and weeping thinking what a terrible waste and so the deaths continued into the 1970s (and beyond) so thank goodness for Sir JS and his brave campaign that faced huge opposition. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[BernardTPM]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

It looks rather small compared to the modern cars around it.

No, the modern ones are bloated.

[Rugd1022]

45 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

Yes I remember Denis Jenkinson - very reactionary chap. Didn't he co-drive with Sterling Moss in a Merc SLR in the 1955 Mille Miglia? I guess that gave him some licence.....

 

I remember watching on the BBC  Lorenzo Bandini crash at Monaco in 1967 and weeping thinking what a terrible waste and so the deaths continued into the 1970s (and beyond) so thank goodness for Sir JS and his brave campaign that faced huge opposition. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

Jenks was an excellent writer and journalist, I still enjoy reading his stuff in old copies of Motorsport, but he really had it in for an unlucky few who were regularly on the receiving end of his anger.

 

And yes he co-drove with Moss on the '55 MM, his notes written out on a long roll of paper helping them to victory.

 

[Oldddudders]

9 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

 

With Alfred Neubauer.

[Martino]

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

 Indeed, the difference is most marked.

 

My '67 Ford Mustang coupe....considered by many i the UK to be a 'large' car [perhaps an illusion based on the knowledge it is American?]

Yet, its overall 'footprint' is slightly smaller than the last iteration of Ford UK's Mondeo.

Whilst, inside, it is nearly 11 inches wider at shoulder height.

Indeed, most spacious for a 'small', cheap, American car..

Following my move to the US I acquired a 2005 Mustang convertible (after a Honda S2000 in the UK) which I thought was pretty large.  The locals used to refer to my ‘little mustang’!

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

 

A really rare car there, an Austin Ambassador, though for some reason you took photos of the common stuff either side of it! ;)

[Jol Wilkinson]

5 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

No, the modern ones are bloated.

Largely because they have built in safety features required by law. Perhaps the size (width) of the average  person has also increased.

 

You could always go back to the day of the sliding window Mini where the only thing between you and a side collision was the door panel and its layer of vinyl trim

[Rugd1022]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

A really rare car there, an Austin Ambassador, though for some reason you took photos of the common stuff either side of it! ;)

 

Took one of the Ambassador too...!