For those interested in old cars.

[alastairq]

Now & again, I  [personally] would come into 'contact' with someone of a senior position who was being given a 'guided tour'....

Colonels, Brigs, admirals, etc...plus senior civil servants, sometimes politicians, and even occasionally media personalities [yuch!!]...

 

If I was collared ever, to 'give so & so  a ride round, etc.....then, once out of sight, [or not, as the  case may have been?] I'd first ask if they had a licence [the right one]..?  If they answered yes, but hadn't used it for decades, I'd tell 'em to get into the driver's seat, and I'll give them an idea of what it's really all about. After all, I was a relevantly qualified Instructor [not just some skilled chauffeur]..

 

.....................and off we'd go. usually off road....

This invariably upset their tour timetable, once they got to enjoy themselves.  I saved my [expert?? Had to be, part of the job]] demos for the 'students' on the whole.  Didn't sit well with me, simply driving them around. I knew what to do, they didn't, so they might as well dip their toes and get a bit of an idea?

 

One old hand instructor accidentally got given  a  visiting Secretary of State to give  a 'tour' to.....wrong move entirely. For the powers-that-were, so to speak.

 

She got told, and shown, in no uncertain terms about the shortcomings of the new range of vehicles introduced.....and how the glossy presentations seem to have won, over sheer practical considerations?

 

That's the trouble with civvies in the military world.....they answer back, and rarely say what is wanted to be heard.

Even worse when said military declare that those civvies are subject-matter experts....Big mistake!  

Deferential respect wasn't usually in our skillset.  [Unless recently ex-military, where they simply couldn't help themselves?]

 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

That's the trouble with civvies in the military world.....they answer back, and rarely say what is wanted to be heard.

Even worse when said military declare that those civvies are subject-matter experts....Big mistake!  

Deferential respect wasn't usually in our skillset.  [Unless recently ex-military, where they simply couldn't help themselves?
 

As a long time civvy in the defence industry, probably the best bit of advice I was ever given, came after seeing the comparison table of equivalent ranks across the three services and the approximate MoD civil servant equivalents.

 

Never, never, NEVER try and pull rank with a military officer.  You might think you've earned your position, they KNOW they have.  I would letterly have been about level with a Major/Lt Col but to me they were (a) the customer and (b) I was on their ground where I was a guest.  Remembering this, I never had a problem.

 

I recently read a piece by Bill Giles, the former BBC weatherman, who described how as the Met Office was part of the MoD, they were effectively the military.  How I laughed; he would have made himself extremely unpopular if he'd ever tried that with real military personnel.

[MrWolf]

Very true. I have found that you must treat everyone as equals, one of the best bits of advice I have ever been given and gladly passed on is never, ever to talk down to or dismiss the folks on the shop floor. 

They probably already have the answer to your engineering problem. Their bosses brought you in as consultant because they assume that anyone who doesn't have letters after his name is either unintelligent or lazy.

[alastairq]

Whereas where I worked, the military management learnt very early on to place more reliance on the advice of the long-term 'civvies' than anything else. What would work, what policy wouldn't, etc.

We possessed the skills, they didn't, as it were. They recognised that.

 

We 'civvies' earned the respect given. It wasn't attached to any 'position'....

The main problem military management had was, it was short term. Military management were in position 18 months to two years at most.

Whereas the civilian counterparts were in post generally for a much longer time. 

Oddly, where I worked, the employee trends bucked those noted nationally.

In other words, we tended to stay 'in post', in one form or another, for the long term. There was an incredibly low turn-over of staff.  Mind, at the Establishment where I worked there was a considerable variety of in-house posts to wander in & out of.  

 

The military management knew we [civvies] could deliver . [Certainly as far as the DCL were concerned]

As it happened many senior military personnel were glad of the 'up front' approach by the 'civvies'....

As our joint committee meetings proved.

Comparative 'ranks' were a bit of a farce really. 

Certainly never applied or referred to.

The biggest problem was, being a long-term fixture, so to speak, even the Commandant knew my first name.......

 

Which often had me at a disadvantage [being at what one would suppose was, the lower end of pond life?]....as I didn't always know theirs!  Even worse, bumping into senior military personnel was commonplace......I didn't operate from an office [as such]...not being a desk-wallah.    But too many folks seemed to know where I was, or would be. Or, what I was doing that particular day.

Annoying when there were around 300 or so of us, all supposedly doing the same job, in one form or another.....

 

300 or so personalities.......most well known by one form of reputation or another...the price of being in post a looong time, relatively speaking.

 

I have a neighbour who is close to finishing his time, as a WO1...his first greeting was, my first name, followed by informing me I 'taught him' many years ago.....Not sure what course that would have been, but, all the same....Nicely, he reckoned I hadn't changed much in all those years...Never had any bad or dubious feedback in my time, either.....[students were encouraged to give feedback....the RAF were especially keen to do so....as were YOs. Senior personnel undergoing training were also keen. The younger, lower ranks were happy if we got them cleared ASAP....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by alastairq

[jcredfer]

 

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

As a long time civvy in the defence industry, probably the best bit of advice I was ever given, came after seeing the comparison table of equivalent ranks across the three services and the approximate MoD civil servant equivalents.

 

Never, never, NEVER try and pull rank with a military officer.  You might think you've earned your position, they KNOW they have.  I would letterly have been about level with a Major/Lt Col but to me they were (a) the customer and (b) I was on their ground where I was a guest.  Remembering this, I never had a problem.

 

I recently read a piece by Bill Giles, the former BBC weatherman, who described how as the Met Office was part of the MoD, they were effectively the military.  How I laughed; he would have made himself extremely unpopular if he'd ever tried that with real military personnel.

 

Respect works both ways between the Civvies and Uniforms, although there are a few I have seen that can't do that.  Pulling rank is an indication that the perpetrator is out of their depth.  Anyone aware of their own ability will recognise that failing straight away.

 

I had a really positive experience with a Treasury Civil Servant, who accompanied the bids for Establishments of RAF personnel, during the time when Hesaltine said Establishment bids would reduce by 14% {Full Stop!!}.

 

I first met the gentleman concerned as a lowly Pilot Officer {the lowest of the low} and he was Major equivalent.  I had done my homework and justified a new establishment, which added 6 Dogs with Handlers {you have to take a moment to figure why the Dog is established and the Handler follows...  it does work.} and a Corporal, enhanced to Sgt, to run the training and organisation.  Rather different to the 14% decrease he had been sent to confirm.

 

We met again about 18 months later, by which time posting had sent me to a place where the bullets and IEDs were real.  Time for homework and regulations again, but from the dizzy lowness of Flying Officer {Aah come on now, it's a whole step up the ladder! - But still way less than the civvy Major equivalent}  We discussed the proposals dictated by the area we worked in and the regulations for provision or personnel established for those circumstances.  We agreed that the 134 personnel was inadequate and 164 was the correct level.  Once again Hasaltine had failed in his -14% homework.

 

Another posting to a place in Germany, another 18 months later, now raised to the dizzy heights of Flight Lieutenant, saw time for an establishment bid, homework time...  Come the day, in walked the Establishment Team, with the same Treasury gentleman at the centre.  Even thought he was still Senior in equivalent rank, he smiled and said "Hello, nice to meet you again.  how many would you like me to approve this time.?"...

 

It took  a short time to confirm that what staff I had were sufficient and we, later had a few beers in the Mess, exchanging past experiences.  Respect, in both directions had made what, often involved confrontation, into a mutual respectful agreeable set of results.

 

In contrast, another Civil Service organisation, I later spent a short time with, classed themselves as Flight Lieutenant/Army Captain and booked into an Army mess for lunch.  They found themselves, eating in the SNCO's mess and missed the fact that they were privileged  to be allowed to be eating amongst such revered persons.

 

As alastairq says, it's performance that matters.

 

[Northmoor]

Totally agree.  Most of my work was with Navy personnel and I could be working in the bowels of a gearbox with junior rates and 30 minutes later invited into the officer's mess for coffee to discuss my findings.  

 

As I said above, always remembering that I was a guest in their "home" never hurt.  RN Ships have any number of contractors coming and going to work in some grey box that the crew aren't allowed to open without breaking a tamper-proof seal (and probably a warranty agreement).  The youngsters often seemed to appreciate someone from outside taking an interest in their workplace; my work was pretty specialist and if they took an interest, I made a point of helping them understand what I was doing. 

[MrWolf]

I have also had the privilege of working in similar places and found that it can be a double edged sword, you can be accepted at all levels where you are a guest as such and seen as both an asset and a threat on home turf.

I used to get asked for by name too, which sometimes upset those above me who thought that they ought to be off on a jolly. 

[RJS1977]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I recently read a piece by Bill Giles, the former BBC weatherman, who described how as the Met Office was part of the MoD, they were effectively the military.  How I laughed; he would have made himself extremely unpopular if he'd ever tried that with real military personnel.

 

I started my (albeit brief) Met Office career a couple of years before Bill retired and can confirm that forecasters working on military bases (particularly RAF bases) indeed held equivalent military rank.

 

There was however a good reason for this. Whilst it was not expected that the forecaster would 'pull rank' in general day-to-day life on the base, if the weather was forecast to be significantly inclement as to render a military exercise dangerous, the forecaster had the authority to 'scrub' the exercise on safety grounds in much the way that a medical officer could order servicemen off active duty if they were unfit. 

 

[boxbrownie]

I had two years in the MoD/MoI early on in my career, and every time without fail I was “on base” or in “the building” I was treated with total respect, probably because I even as a skinny youth who was there just to do a job treated everyone else the same, regardless of rank they all were very polite and helpful......until evening mess time when it got a bit errr “messy”  

[alastairq]

Although my experiences are relatively recent, it has to be said, the military environment these days is lightyears away from that of a couple of decades ago.

 

Army training techniques fell in line with those of the RAF some time ago now.....

 

I enjoyed my 'job' immensely.   Having spent my previous working life, mostly driving buses,, I took the opportunity to switch horses when it arose...

 

Initially, despite a brief course, I was plunged into the world of driver instruction [licence acquisition]...at the deep end!  

Those recruited {?} alongside me, who had ADI [but little heavy vehicle experience as drivers], found the change equally of the deep-end variety.

 

My Cat D licence[bus] stood me in good stead......I even passed a Cat C & C+E without bother [or driving faults]....within a week of 'starting'....so 'they' had little doubt as to my personal driving standards!  

I had to learn 'how' to instruct, or teach!  Rapidly, since we no longer had a whole 30 days to get a 'student' up to test standard [Cat C], which the older instructor hands had been blessed with.

When I got going, the targets  were set, usually by an 'office-wallah' sat in Whitehall...15 days [or rather, half-days, since we worked on a  student/instructor ratio of 2 to 1]   to get a Cat B licence holder through Cat C  &  C+E.  At the time they were 'permitted' 2 Cat C tests, with the option of a 3rd 'on interview'....and only 2  C+E tests.  Not meeting the standards set resulted in an RTU.  The pressure was on, but not impossible!  Continuous driver training actually does work, and on the whole resulted in a good quality product!

The RTU thing was the first to 'go'. When considering the thousands of soldiers [ignoring the RAF & Navy /RM personnel]...who were in training where I worked , at any given time [we were the world's largest self contained driver training centre at one time!]....the RTU system meant there were a lot of personnel 'in transit' between us, and their originating units, at any given time.  which was wasteful of theirs, and the taxpayers, time & money. Also wasteful of training opportunites.

 It was all down to the way the military were financed.

Many decades ago now, instead of there being one big bottomless  pot of money into which individual units or cap badges could dip as needed, each unit, cap badge, department, establishment, etc had it's own budget. within which the head/commander/boss had to keep...or else be on the carpet trying to justify either why they've ''over-spent', or why their 'responsibilities' were not fit-for-stated purpose. [I'm trying to be undramatic here!!!]

For any department, etc, training was probably the greatest financial cost.  Yet training was probably the most important aspect !

 

 Where I worked, they 'system was, that each 'unit' or cap badge[ you get the idea?].....purchased from 'us', a course.

[This was the same in any training establishment/ department, military or civil.]

Units would identify which particular course suited their needs.

Some would want the whole hog, others only wanting a lesser level of outcome.  {For example, at one time, the RAF only wanted their personnel to have up to Cat C licences, with C+E being acquired at a much later date.]

This would change, often on a weekly basis as emails flew back & forth.

The RTU system disappeared [some ''older'', ex-military hands mourned the loss of incentive for a soldier to 'pass'], but the time-targets remained [indeed, were reduced]...We were also in competition with private contractors delivering licence acquisition to the military [done at unit level, found to be cheaper in many respects]....which resulted in them only making money based on perfomance...so they would 'assess'' potential students, pick the ones likely to pass in a short time, and send the rest up to us!!  Examiners started complaining that, effectively, they were training the drivers, IE keep testing until a pass is achieved!   Many contractors simply went bust....leaving us to pick up the shortfall [mess?]....Politics came into play here too.

 

Amongst all this, eventually courses for instructors were properly designed, especially having to fit in with today's educational ethos.  [Yup, my place of work was OFSTED'd , successfully, in most respects]....

 

It was an ongoing, continually evolving, world, was training.

 

Which is as it should be. Flexible, adaptable, responsive to need.  Validation became an important part of my world of work too. 

 

 

  Our establishment was also, financially constrained. [I blame the British taxpayer, whose fault it was that my own pay was frozen for years and years...missing as I did, one significant pay [grade] jump by two payroll numbers, because the great British taxpayers' representatives didn't want to cough up much money! ] resulting in management ideas to reduce or cut out this that & the other, thus saving money, only to find the customer [Army, Navy RAF, RM, not forgetting various civilian departments, FCO, HO, etc] finding out somehow [usually discovering the products had a training shortfall, thereby forcing a trip overhead, to bring down the Wrath of Khan upon our management....

which resulted in our 'compliance'.....and the biggest overtime bill of the entire Civil  Service [combined]....

Which had to be met by the Treasury, without complaint, as ultimately they had set the rules, etc.....

All down to  a simple sentence included throughout most training course paperwork [the written word is holy, after all]....which laid down how a course was to be conducted [criteria]......adding the simple sentence, ''by day and by night!''

 

Meaning, what a student did by day, they also had to do by night!

 

Which meant, we 'had' to do overtime.  At night. It also had to be 'dark'.....which led to interesting hours of work in the summertime....and the invocation of working time directives. Which also had its military equivalent. [Military drivers are not only governed by civilian law, but also military regulation. A double whammy in some instances.}

 

Plus, for every bunch of Instructors out training at night, there had to be a manager on hand to deal with any sort of 'emergency', breakdowns, etc.

 

I used to enjoy it.....and the overtime.   

Civil Service rules applied too.....with enhanced pay when various times were triggered.... Better than sitting at home watching the soaps?   McDonalds 24 hour opening times were welcomed as well......York McDonalds car park would be chokka full of large green lorries & trailers, some 2 hours or so after starting overtime...students had to have a break as well, and swap drivers, do their drills, ,etc....Used to upset the boy racers who naturally congregated there at that time. Bridlington was another favourite..but routes were changed to meet changing course criteria.

My favorite time would be, on returning to camp, going onto the off road course. Where things went tactical, IE, no lights, whatsoever!  Mark 1 eyeballs to start with...NVD's were more advanced, and not really as good as eyeballs for driving. [loss of depth-of-field]

H&S dictated the vehicles were marked using cylumes, including infra red, since we weren't the only evil green monsters out there in the dark.

There'd be some poor sod trying to drive a Mastiff on night vision devices and cameras....and it helped if they didn't drive into the side of a stationary green lorry!   

Nothing could be seen at night to the casual passer-by on the main road outside....but there were anything up to 40 or 50 [sometimes more, as other courses were out too] various green vehicles trundling around  in the dark....sometimes more......[the 200 metre long twisty water crossing was interesting for our drivers too].

 

Not a good idea to nip over the MoD fence to walk one's dog in the middle of the night.....Thiose signs meant what they said!

 

 

 

The covering of backsides!!   Not mine, but the MoD's.

 

 

 

[chriswright03]

As interesting as all this talk of The Services is, back to Classic cars.  Not certain if I missed this in here but thought I would mention it anyway.

 

Anglia car auctions last time sold a renovated Bond Bug for £29,160!  Not that I have watched it all as it is over 3 hours worth of Youtube video including it here.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by chriswright03

[great central]

Came across this while mooching round the newsfeeds yesterday.

 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/gallery/sneak-peek-classic-car-museum-5168743

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, great central said:

Came across this while mooching round the newsfeeds yesterday.

 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/gallery/sneak-peek-classic-car-museum-5168743

Nice to see it's focussed on "ordinary" cars - I've often thought a "Museum of the Cr@p Automobile" was a go-er - but I see that like seemingly every car museum in the world, it also has a DeLorean.

[BernardTPM]

The last Victor 101 estate I remember seeing  'in the wild' was this one back in 1983. I'd known it for some time before as it was still in the same family, owned by the son of a neighbour who used to still come and visit her. 18 years old, but it was very frilly round the edges by then!

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by BernardTPM

[peanuts]

Spotted this poking its nose out of a storage space today 

[Beechnut]

2 hours ago, peanuts said:

Spotted this poking its nose out of a storage space today 

You got me worried there, thought someone had pinched my 90!
 

Brendan

 

 

[alastairq]

A small rural transport company I worked for back in the early 1980's had a Victor 101, mainly used for school dinner contracts, and general running about, plus the odd private hire.

The also had an Allegro estate for the same purposes.

I didn't like the allegro estate to drive at all.

 

That was the place where, when we [the full timers] got tasked to strip out the ''office'' [a large wooden shed] of the wall insulation [fibre boards], we found all the old gasket and service item racks behind. For the small fleet of Lanchesters the firm ran after WW2....They had simply been covered over by the fibre boards, no attempt made to remove them at all. Lots of old gaskets, bits and bobs....

 

An enthusiast arrived to scoop the lot!

{Revills of Langtoft, for any that know? Previously Berrimans [& Revills]...East Yorkshire  }

Edited March 16, 2021 by alastairq

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, great central said:

Came across this while mooching round the newsfeeds yesterday.

 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/gallery/sneak-peek-classic-car-museum-5168743

 

Personally, I think Heaton Lodge Junction would be better suited!

 

Mike.

[PhilJ W]

These look like fun, Ferves Ranger 4X4 made 1968-71 based on FIAT 500.

 

[PhilJ W]

One in action.

 

I have serious doubts though about having loose kids in an open car.

[boxbrownie]

That looks particularly unstable 

[Oldddudders]

As Car & Car Abortions said about the Marina Coupé, "like a pregnant elephant on ballet shoes"!

[alastairq]

32 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

I have serious doubts though about having loose kids in an open car.

 My!

 

How times have changed?

 

Wasn't a real issue for around 100 years? 

 

Or are today's kids more likely to dive out & run away at the first red traffic light? [That's if the driver bothers to stop? Which seems prevalent these days?]

 

As a former bus driver, I cannot recall too many passengers running away , screaming?  Maybe I missed something?

 

   

 

[Richard E]

4 minutes ago, alastairq said:

   Maybe I missed something?

 

   

 

 

Could that be the awful driving standards that seem to prevail nowadays ...

 

[alastairq]

On 15/03/2021 at 17:05, chriswright03 said:

As interesting as all this talk of The Services is, back to Classic cars.

 

Whilst I worked there [to drag things back a bit], one of the Commandants [in fact, several!] was rather an 'enthusiast'.  which may, or may not, have been a ''good thing'' in their job?

 

Anyway, he got hold of a real Mack Bulldog truck/chassis, and had it 'stored' on our site for quite some time.  The Mack came from a quarry somewhere north of here, and had been in use, I think, right up until the late 1960's?  But, not 'on the road', purely within the quarry itself.  Chain drive and all!   

There also was an Antar unit....which became plinthed.

 

I'll not mention the Meteor, which was a kit of parts.

 

One of our departments used to make use of all sorts of de-registered cars for driver training, which included some of Ford's prototype Mondeos...too good to scrap, but not able to be used 'on road'...So they were used , amongst other things, in Cedergrens skid frames.