For those interested in old cars.

[Northmoor]

29 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I'm not quite sure how "our" car industry is a great success. Last time I looked, we didn't have one. Unless you're counting factories that belong to America, India, Germany or Japan and consequently profiting economies and shareholders in those countries? 

Since most of the wages (of skilled worker and professional roles) are earned and spent (and taxed) in the UK, yes I consider it a great success.  We build more cars than that famous car-loving nation, Italy.  Like much of UK manufacturing, any rose-tinted view of past greatness tends to focus on measuring success by the number of people working in it (input) rather than the number of cars built (output).  At least it's now a skilled industry, until the Japanese arrived much of UK car manufacturing labour was un- or semi-skilled and wages reflected that.

I don't consider the UK needs a "flag-carrier" car manufacturer any more than it needs a flag-carrier maker of washing machines.  Plus it's funny how many people always said they bought British cars when they were from the two largest UK manufacturers, Ford and Vauxhall, both of which were as you say, profiting economies and shareholders in other countries (the USA in that case).

I do think it's sad how so many people are convinced that a car from any country other than Britain, is automatically superior.  The better reliability of Volkswagens may well be a self-reinforcing myth, based on the experiences of a few people I have known.

[boxbrownie]

Unfortunately it’s not the car manufacturing we are world leading in, it is still the innovation and engineering  talent, especially prototype and development engineering, we still are looked to by “those in the know” for solutions.

My example wasn’t the fact people made fortunes from selling parts “under the counter” it was basically whatever problem you had there was somebody with a solution or an answer you could rely on to use, and to make matters clear in all my years I never saw any cash changing hands it was all mates stuff and favours, it is why our engineering industry worked for so long, until bean counters and corporate lawyers found there was little profit in innovation and experience......only in knocking out crap that was cheap to make and expensive to sell.

 

Grrrrrrrr......and breath......

[boxbrownie]

27 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

A chap who used to work for me told me his brother was emigrating to the US and was wanting to sell his 911 and I was cautiously interested at first. He told me his brother worked for BAe and some of the engineering  apprentices had supplied and upgraded some  parts for the 911. I decided to give it a miss, I couldn’t afford BAe prices for spares!

Robert

Bet it went like a rocket though........

[Oldddudders]

14 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

it is why our engineering industry worked for so long, until bean counters and corporate lawyers found there was little profit in innovation and experience......only in knocking out crap that was cheap to make and expensive to sell.

"The price of everything and the value of nothing".

[boxbrownie]

Just now, Oldddudders said:

"The price of everything and the value of nothing".

Amen.....

[Erichill16]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Bet it went like a rocket though........

Probably, but as I said SKY HIGH prices for spares!

[PhilJ W]

59 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

Probably, but as I said SKY HIGH prices for spares!

[PatB]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Since most of the wages (of skilled worker and professional roles) are earned and spent (and taxed) in the UK, yes I consider it a great success.  We build more cars than that famous car-loving nation, Italy.  Like much of UK manufacturing, any rose-tinted view of past greatness tends to focus on measuring success by the number of people working in it (input) rather than the number of cars built (output).  At least it's now a skilled industry, until the Japanese arrived much of UK car manufacturing labour was un- or semi-skilled and wages reflected that.

I don't consider the UK needs a "flag-carrier" car manufacturer any more than it needs a flag-carrier maker of washing machines.  Plus it's funny how many people always said they bought British cars when they were from the two largest UK manufacturers, Ford and Vauxhall, both of which were as you say, profiting economies and shareholders in other countries (the USA in that case).

I do think it's sad how so many people are convinced that a car from any country other than Britain, is automatically superior.  The better reliability of Volkswagens may well be a self-reinforcing myth, based on the experiences of a few people I have known.

As I understand it, the legendary reliability of VWs was established primarily in the USA in the 1950s by some rather sound practices by VW, and has been milked for all it's worth, without much basis in fact, for over half a century. 

 

I've seen it plausibly alleged that VW, alone amongst overseas manufacturers, ensured 3 things. That their dealers all carried a minimum stockholding of vital spares, that their dealers all had a VW trained mechanic on staff, and all dealer servicing was carried out to a rigorously audited and enforced standard. As a result, a VW bought new and dealer serviced didn't go wrong much. The fact that the service schedule included, as a matter of routine, the replacement and reconditioning of some quite major items (eg cylinder heads and valve gear), and also some seemingly minor but actually vital bits (eg the little rubber grommet that prevents the fuel pipe from  being sawn through by the raw edge of the cooling shrouding) didn't really register mith a majority of owners. They just knew they had a car that always seemed to work when they wanted it to and didn't spend unscheduled time off the road. 

 

If true, it wouldn't especially surprise me if VW adopted a similar approach in the UK, thus establishing a similar reputation for reliability. 

 

Compare and contrast with at least one other European brand (possibly Renault, possibly Skoda, I now forget) which my father was considering buying in the early 60s. He abandoned the idea when he discovered that his local main dealer's workshop contained not a single metric spanner. 

[MrWolf]

FIAT had a similar approach with the 500, they also made sure that you could buy  service parts and consumables for it at your local general store.

 

Oddly enough I know of several "specialists" in classic motorcycles who don't have any Whitworth spanners.

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, PatB said:

Compare and contrast with at least one other European brand (possibly Renault, possibly Skoda, I now forget) which my father was considering buying in the early 60s. He abandoned the idea when he discovered that his local main dealer's workshop contained not a single metric spanner. 

 

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Oddly enough I know of several "specialists" in classic motorcycles who don't have any Whitworth spanners.

 

I bet they had plenty of Mole grips though!

 

Mike.

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

I bet they had plenty of Mole grips though!

 

Mike.

 

Or at least one wobbly adjustable spanner with the conference inspiring words HEAVY DUTY MADE IN CHINA on the handle.

[boxbrownie]

The Mercedes rock solid record was built very cleverly back in the 60-70s as the mantra to the main dealers from MB was if a vehicles comes in for a service.....tyres......washer fluid even, the car was always test driven and inspected and if anything was wrong it was repaired or replaced without even telling the customer, there were many new engines, gearboxes, diffs, brakes etc all replaced without a squeak to the owner, and the owner found that his brand new Mercedes only ever needed a simple service and it drove like new after 150K miles.......it worked for MB, and just cost them only slightly more than if they had argued with customers about repairs they wanted within warranty, a very clever strategy that still pays dividends today.

 

BTW the practice ended in the early 80’s.......no surprise there.

[boxbrownie]

34 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

Or at least one wobbly adjustable spanner with the conference inspiring words HEAVY DUTY MADE IN CHINA on the handle.

Back then though the only mole  grips China made were for holding moles while they were cooking them......

[Hroth]

23 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

......it worked for MB, and just cost them only slightly more than if they had argued with customers about repairs they wanted within warranty, a very clever strategy that still pays dividends today.

 

BTW the practice ended in the early 80’s.......no surprise there.

 

There used to be a "Mercedes" garage near us which had a high degree of dissatisfaction from its customers, to the extent that one daily parked his unsatisfactory car outside their premises with large and inflammatory notices in its windows detailing the degree of unhappiness!

 

The garage eventually shut down, the building is now a wine merchants...

 

[doilum]

10 hours ago, PatB said:

As I understand it, the legendary reliability of VWs was established primarily in the USA in the 1950s by some rather sound practices by VW, and has been milked for all it's worth, without much basis in fact, for over half a century. 

 

I've seen it plausibly alleged that VW, alone amongst overseas manufacturers, ensured 3 things. That their dealers all carried a minimum stockholding of vital spares, that their dealers all had a VW trained mechanic on staff, and all dealer servicing was carried out to a rigorously audited and enforced standard. As a result, a VW bought new and dealer serviced didn't go wrong much. The fact that the service schedule included, as a matter of routine, the replacement and reconditioning of some quite major items (eg cylinder heads and valve gear), and also some seemingly minor but actually vital bits (eg the little rubber grommet that prevents the fuel pipe from  being sawn through by the raw edge of the cooling shrouding) didn't really register mith a majority of owners. They just knew they had a car that always seemed to work when they wanted it to and didn't spend unscheduled time off the road. 

 

If true, it wouldn't especially surprise me if VW adopted a similar approach in the UK, thus establishing a similar reputation for reliability. 

 

Compare and contrast with at least one other European brand (possibly Renault, possibly Skoda, I now forget) which my father was considering buying in the early 60s. He abandoned the idea when he discovered that his local main dealer's workshop contained not a single metric spanner. 

Oddly enough yesterday I found myself at what used to be the VW agent in Castleford. Back in the day the next door neighbour was a good friend of the proprietor and I got the impression that the dealership was a franchised operation with the next dealer a good 15 miles away at Moortown on the north side of Leeds. I would agree about the standards of servicing. What also helped was that these were the first generation of cars that didn't require a twenty point lube job every three months. Many happy memories of riding in the luggage space behind the rear seats of next doors beetle.

Edited March 2, 2021 by doilum

[Enterprisingwestern]

34 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

There used to be a "Mercedes" garage near us which had a high degree of dissatisfaction from its customers, to the extent that one daily parked his unsatisfactory car outside their premises with large and inflammatory notices in its windows detailing the degree of unhappiness!

 

The garage eventually shut down, the building is now a wine merchants...

 

 

From whine merchants to wine merchants, how apt!

 

Mike.

[doilum]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Back then though the only mole  grips China made were for holding moles while they were cooking them......

Can anyone remember the last time they saw a pair of genuine Mole grips? I have had many grip spanners some excellent others indifferent but only one set, in my Lambretta days, branded Mole.

[petethemole]

Remember the postmark "Newport, Home of the Mole Wrench"?  Thanks to Monty Python I always had a mental image of a giant mole stalking the streets like Spiny Norman,

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

there were many new engines,

 

How did that work, then, they'd have had to change the number on the log book so the owner would have found out?

[Hroth]

5 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

How did that work, then, they'd have had to change the number on the log book so the owner would have found out?

Or they kept the engine block and it suffered a process of reboring/relining...

 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

There used to be a "Mercedes" garage near us which had a high degree of dissatisfaction from its customers, to the extent that one daily parked his unsatisfactory car outside their premises with large and inflammatory notices in its windows detailing the degree of unhappiness!

 

The garage eventually shut down, the building is now a wine merchants...

 

In the 90’s Mercedes had a lot of trouble with its dealers and quality of service, so much so that MB took a lot of them back under MB control rather than use a franchise system.

[boxbrownie]

10 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

How did that work, then, they'd have had to change the number on the log book so the owner would have found out?

My remark were a generalisation, obviously if they needed to renew the complete engine then......actually to be honest they probably wouldn’t have even bothered if they had had to change the engine/number.

 

Although back then I am not so sure the engine number was in the old folding logbooks, although I cannot be sure I threw the last one away years ago.

[Beechnut]

One for Mr Wolf here.

 

 

[Hobby]

Blimey, that van's a bit shiny!! Early '60s?

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

Can anyone remember the last time they saw a pair of genuine Mole grips? I have had many grip spanners some excellent others indifferent but only one set, in my Lambretta days, branded Mole.

Unfortunately I threw two pairs away recently, originals as well......one standard and a long grip one, they suffered the complete failure of our shed roof and were in a tool box full of water for most of the Winter, totally jammed with rust the thread were.......threw out tons of tools after that incident.