For those interested in old cars.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

True, but for many of us that run classics it's the feel, sound and performance of the engine that makes it worth running a classic. Take the engine out of it and replace with a silent electric one and I have to agree with Kickstart, it will have lost it's soul. Put an electric motor in it and it isn't a classic any more...

 

I totally understand that view. But I am still tempted by an RX8 without the problems of the rotary engine.

[Kickstart]

2 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Which is one side of the coin. The other being those people who like the looks of classic cars, but do not want the problems that can be involved with running old machinery (most of those problems being associated with old engines).

 

Those old engines are the easy bit! Availability of bodywork and lights are far harder and more expensive. How many who are unprepared to touch the engine would be prepared to cope with major alterations for a completely different "engine" , with likely pretty much no support when the small company who fitted it disappears?

 

Probably about the same number who would be in the market to buy a classic car with a modern petrol or diesel engine fitted, I suspect

 

All the best

 

Katy

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, peanuts said:

with Boris announcing the end of Diesel & petrol car sales from 2030 is this going to effect the value of classic cars will they increase or decrease in value as there useability deminishes will petrol & diesel become increasingly expenseive and more dificult to obtain to run these vehicles ?

There is always bio-fuel but that gives off emissions as much as fossil fuel. To be quite honest I would not feel secure in todays traffic driving a pre 1970's car.

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

There is always bio-fuel but that gives off emissions as much as fossil fuel. To be quite honest I would not feel secure in todays traffic driving a pre 1970's car.

So, so true, we would love once again to own and drive a 2CV (the only car you can drive at the limit and never get into trouble ).or even a Cooper S ...but bodywork as strong as wet toilet paper and an airbag* system as good as a sharpened stainless steel spike on the steering wheel doesn’t inspire confidence on today’s roads.

 

* or it’s equivalent 

[Erichill16]

 Evening,

I have a Lotus Elan with original twin cam engine. I know you can convert them to Ford Zetek power but then it’s not a Lotus is it? Convert to electric and what are you left with........nothing.

Robert.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Erichill16
Spelling

[MrWolf]

Sorry, I don't understand how an EV version of one of the common or garden classics could be better to drive and maintain than the original. You might have the smooth motor, but you still have c1950 suspension, seats, draught proofing, wipers etc. What about a heater? Or updated brakes? What about when it stops at the side of the road and because of all the control systems you can't fix it with a hammer?

I remember being at a VMCC meet one night and two blokes who had turned up in modern cars were talking loudly about the improvements one of them was making to a 1954 Matchless 500. He was fitting modern forks salvaged from a Honda and having an adaptor made to do it. That way it would handle better, it would have disc brakes too. He was having it converted to alternator and twelve volts so he could have indicators, hazard flashers and halogen lamps. 

My mate who rode a 1930 Sunbeam inherited from his grandfather every day, the same as grandfather had was facing me with his back to them and said VERY loudly: "Why don't you just go out and buy a brand new f@#£&#g Honda and leave the death traps to those of us who like them for what they are?"

 

I nearly laughed myself to death.

[alastairq]

23 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

To be quite honest I would not feel secure in todays traffic driving a pre 1970's car.

 Yet, I am [and feel] the exact opposite.

I have a couple of roadworthy [and, on the road, given half a chance]...pre-1970 cars...one a '67, the other a '51.

 

I am comfortable in all types of traffic in both.

Despite the fact the '51 is lightweight, small footprint, but extremely capable on a variety of surfaces. Obviously I would be 'vulnerable' if someone intended to deliberately ram me...but then again, I don't waste what I've spent decades finding out, then passing on, in terms of driver skills. So I am less intimidated by the other stuff found on the roads...which really isn't fair on everyone else, who may not have recourse to those  skills.

 

Now my winter fuel allowance nicely covers the insurance premiums for both those oldies.....

[MrWolf]

50 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I totally understand that view. But I am still tempted by an RX8 without the problems of the rotary engine.

 

I was once offered a swap of an NSU RO80 that had had it's rotary engine replaced with a Ford Corsair V4 2.0l. It was a popular conversion in the 70s when both cars were worthless. 

Perhaps the running gear from a rusted out late model Z28 IROC  Camaro would be fun in an RX8. I drove an RX8 once, all the way up the M5. Lots of fun (it was about 3 months old!) But 25mpg? Ouch. Old 2.2 Vauxhall Velox beat that mileage.

[jcredfer]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Of course, it’s still ten years away and vehicle technology will change adapt to regs, to fix regs in stone now would be stupid, but then at least it would give people even more chance to slag off whoever they deem needs it.

 

True and exactly what the current Gov't want, so as to bask in the kudos of the mighty environmental leap.....   however, in the meantime, the manufacturers will want to know the spec very soon, so they can design what will be allowed to sell.  If they can't design it in time, it can't be sold, a mere practical, but awkward fact.  Those with the power exerted by green leather polishing will find that this will come back to bite them, rather sooner than intended [like many, many other hasty, equally vague, decisions], when those specs are demanded in the loud noises, which the motor manufacturers worldwide, are perfectly capable of. 

 

It will also be interesting to see how that plays out, in a world where BJ and associated Mob, find that the rest of the world is a tad slower at playing the electric card.....

 

That will hit whichever colour the leather polishing people's banner that is being held.....  I await the squirming with, a certain amount of, relish.

 

Julian

 

[stewartingram]

I remember when the switch to unleaded petrol - they said leaded would still be available. Yes it was, but not for long, the nearest I know of was 50 miles or more from me, and you can't find it nowadays. Though hardened valve seats etc can be made on the older engines so that you can still use them

So if you take the good old Morris Minor (still plenty around, though personally I prefer its in-house rival, the Austin A30.A35 range, my 1st car), do the valve seats & it is still driveable on unleaded. To a home mechanic it is a dream, simple to maintain (aka fix). Much better to do than a present day car. But more importantly, the old car wins on "green" issues. There are 3 phases of "greenies" in a cars life. 1) building it; 2) using it; 3) disposing of it. The old car wins on 1 & 3, by massive amounts, because it is already built, and is (by virtue of being treated as a classic, not a disposable item), likely not to reach stage 3. The stage 2 that is fails on is a small portion of any cars total life "anti-green".

Now, though I am a classic fan, and have no desire to change my car for a newer model, I run a 2003 Rover 75 2.5 V6. Forget the Rover "stigma" that the media spread about, it is a great car, but it is (in relative terms), a modern car, full of complicated things. In over 13 years of driving the marque, I've done all my own maintenance, (with the backup of a great Owners Club), so have no trepidation of fixing it (even the electronics), I'll do it myself. It fulfils my needs. But I've also converted it to lpg - which seems to be a forgotten fuel resource. Much cleaner than petrol, and especially diesel, it is very economical to run on a waste by-product of producing petrol - due to the low taxes in comparison. I can't see lpg disappearing (think Calor gas uses) so it should see me out! I've run the 75s and its predecessor since 2000 at 20k miles pa on 1/2 price fuel.... 

[Kickstart]

54 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

 I drove an RX8 once, all the way up the M5. Lots of fun (it was about 3 months old!) But 25mpg? Ouch. Old 2.2 Vauxhall Velox beat that mileage.

 

A friend had an Elford turbo version of the original RX7. There were occasions it only managed 9mpg!

 

5 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I remember when the switch to unleaded petrol - they said leaded would still be available.

 

Was well over a decade between petrol cars having to run on unleaded and LRP disappearing.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[alastairq]

Leaded fuel is still available, at a price ,in very large cans.

 

I have posted this link before, somewhere maybe on here.....but it is the chapter-&-verse on the results of tests conducted by Manchester University on an old design engine[MG XPAG]....testing its responses to a variety of fuels.

The results are briefly described online, bit the written word is far more comprehensive, so might be worth buying the book and having several good reads.

https://www.veloce.co.uk/store/Classic-Engines-Modern-Fuel-The-Problems-the-Solutions-p151478624

 

The results are very surprising...also they enlighten someone like me as to the issues old engine designs have in terms of efficiency [performance]...etc.

The tests came about out of a desire to find out why modern petrol affected us oldie drivers so much compared to  the fuel of the 60's & 70's....

Also lays a few myths about the ethanol issue.

 

Plus, there are quite a few 'suggestions' based on the test results, as to how to cope with modern fuel.

The book can be had cheaper from elsewhere.....but having scooped through the online bits, the book is definitely worth having and understanding. {Somehow I struggle to understand, let alone believe, what I see on the computer screen....especially my bank balance!!]

[MrWolf]

It might have been a decade before leaded fuel disappeared, but it WAS made difficult to obtain, I gave up after a year or so because I found I had to do a previously unnecessary journey to buy it of some 30 miles. Not very green and most people didn't know where or even if they could still get it. Which of course meant that the fuel companies had the excuse that it wasn't selling.

Rather like the railways, make a pig's ear of the timetables, say nobody uses the service and close the line .

[MrWolf]

@alastairq The reports are very interesting and well researched, but as for ethanol, just ask anyone who runs or repairs Japanese motorcycles what ethanol does to fuel taps, pumps hoses carburettors and injection components.

[APOLLO]

My old Rover V8 starts & runs very well on Tesco unleaded bog standard, it was designed to use 5 star, I have adjusted the ignition a touch to stop pinking - which only happened with foot to the floor !!!. Since I bought her in 1982 she has never had a gallon of 5 star down her throat. I add a touch of red ex treatment now & again (when I remember !!). Bought a dozen bottles for £1 each at Morrisons a while ago. Should last me till 2030 !!!!! 

 

Brit15

[gr.king]

The "standard" Rover V8 was never in a particularly high state of tune compared to some smaller engines, and I imagine that being alloy it would have hard steel exhaust valve inserts too, so the tolerance of unleaded fuel long term isn't too startling.

 

By contrast, within a very few years of the end of universally available leaded fuel, once the work-hardening and "lead memory" effect due to previously deposited lead had gone, I had intolerable amounts of valve seat recession in the all-iron 2 litre Opel cam-in-head engine in my regularly used and firmly driven Vauxhall Cavalier Coupe. Regular correct use of Castrol Valvemaster Plus lead replacement additive and octane booster had failed to prevent this. It was so bad that it wouldn't stay in tune sufficiently to idle properly (if at all) for more than a few hundred fast miles after each set-up. Hardened exhaust valve seats became essential, and solved the problem entirely.

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, jcredfer said:

True and exactly what the current Gov't want, so as to bask in the kudos of the mighty environmental leap.....   however, in the meantime, the manufacturers will want to know the spec very soon, so they can design what will be allowed to sell.  If they can't design it in time, it can't be sold, a mere practical, but awkward fact. 

 

Over many years we had more times than I could count visits from Gov officials wanting to know what we could do, would be doing, have in the planning stage or just bounce ideas around as to what legislation and advances would be possible, these seemingly random plans put out by Gov aren’t pulled out of thin air but planned and agreed with manufacturers long before Joe public hears about them. Sure manufacturers need time to work new technology into cycle plans but they are very seldom taken by surprise by them, after all when existing technology becomes old consumers want (most of them regardless of this thread ) the new stuff, it’s shiney and looks great on the drive and makes for good profits.

[Kickstart]

14 hours ago, MrWolf said:

It might have been a decade before leaded fuel disappeared, but it WAS made difficult to obtain, I gave up after a year or so because I found I had to do a previously unnecessary journey to buy it of some 30 miles. Not very green and most people didn't know where or even if they could still get it. Which of course meant that the fuel companies had the excuse that it wasn't selling.

Rather like the railways, make a pig's ear of the timetables, say nobody uses the service and close the line .

 

Might be an area thing. I had no problems getting LRP until quite a while after 2000. Indeed it was useful during the fuel strikes as it tended to still be available. And there were various news reports bemoaning the likely future MOT issues from those who had used it in their catalysed car.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[alastairq]

In the meantime, what happens to the used-up batteries?

Or those from crashed leccymobiles?

 

What about the used& abused market for leccy vehicles?

 

Is the battery the price-setter? Rather than the surrounding car?

[Kickstart]

6 minutes ago, alastairq said:

In the meantime, what happens to the used-up batteries?

Or those from crashed leccymobiles?

 

What about the used& abused market for leccy vehicles?

 

Is the battery the price-setter? Rather than the surrounding car?

 

Assuming they aren't shorted out triggering a fire, the remaining good individual cells can probably be extracted and reused relatively easily. Dead ones likely recycled to extract the lithium.

 

But there needs to be an infrastructure in place to do this at a reasonable price, rather than expensively taking advantage of people's lack of knowledge

 

All the best

 

Katy 

[boxbrownie]

The batteries are still very useable once they have past their “warranty envelope” from the manufacturers, most get used in energy storage banks.

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

In the meantime, what happens to the used-up batteries?

Or those from crashed leccymobiles?

 

What about the used& abused market for leccy vehicles?

 

Is the battery the price-setter? Rather than the surrounding car?

I was considering a second hand electric or hybrid car and I was surprised to see how cheap they were. Then I saw the notice "Requires new batteries". On further enquiries I was told  it would cost £2,000 to £5,000 to do so depending on the make and model. 

48 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

The batteries are still very useable once they have past their “warranty envelope” from the manufacturers, most get used in energy storage banks.

As the batteries get older/more used recharging slows down. So where quick re-charging is essential, a bus service for instance it is common practice to change the batteries at frequent intervals and use the old batteries for storage. The batteries can be re-used four or five times before they have to be recycled. Lithium also has the advantage of being light weight, some battery electric buses even have them carried on the roof.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

In the meantime, what happens to the used-up batteries?

Or those from crashed leccymobiles?

 

What about the used& abused market for leccy vehicles?

 

Is the battery the price-setter? Rather than the surrounding car?

 

There's a business in the Bristol area that breaks crashed Teslas. A producer of EVs in Dorset gets parts from them, control gear as well as batteries, for his projects.

[Hobby]

Wouldn't have thought there were that many crashed ones around?

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

There's a business in the Bristol area that breaks crashed Teslas. A producer of EVs in Dorset gets parts from them, control gear as well as batteries, for his projects.

Yes, and Tesla have been trying to stop them, they have to be careful with the control gear and make sure it's "online capability" is blocked, because in the States Tesla have been turning off battery packs and control gear used from salvaged Teslas.