For those interested in old cars.

[alastairq]

Depending on the model of car...and how much kudos the type acquired back in its day.....there are many older cars that have a spares backup that would be the envy of any modern motorcar owner.

My old '67 Ford Mustang is one such model....every nut , bolt, trim piece or mechanical component can be had, 'new' from the US, certainly....

A lot  is down to Ford's tendency to raid their own parts bins at time of production.

msot is down to an aftermarket spares industry started back in the day, when people discovered that Ford had more or less ceased to provide certain essential parts...when there were thousands, if not millions, of the model still out there running.  I refer in  particular to how Scott Drake started, by seeking out the profile of the rubber boot seal that Ford stopped supplying....buying a few hundred yards wholesale from a rubber seal manufacturer, cutting off the right length, and flogging t' Mustang owners to cure leaky boots. Form that humble beginning  stemmed a huge parts inventory.

So that today, I can order any mechanical or service item, online, that will arrive on my doorstep here in the UK....but 4 or 5 days after ordering, at a cost that matches...or is significantly lower than, a similar item for one of this century's motors.....!

 

I suspect [from a good friend's personal experience, ]..that MGB's are in a similar position?  Or Morris Minors?

Of course, the aftermarket spares industry for old cars is one reason why the 'classic' vehicle industry is encouraged so much by the Government...it is a many multi million pound industry....

 

 

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I recall back in the 80's Fords had a warehouse facility at Aveley (and may still do). It was reputed that if you knew where to look and what you were looking for you could find the parts to build a complete brand new Model T.

Unfortunately Aveley went years ago now, it was one of my jobs to photograph the empty shell of the building, but even then there were racks in some ”partioned” areas with odd bits and pieces on and I swear some must have been 50 years old at least........I believe now it is a housing estate.

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, w124bob said:

And at Longbridge half the work force had enough bits in their sheds to build an Allagro, mind you that's probably a penance!

Oh yes, vehicle manufacturing workers......have the strongest handles on their lunch bags 

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Do I not recall that Tony Lanfranchi drove a Moskvich in the saloon car series in 1972? With considerable success? My mate - who had some years before written off a Mk2 Twin Cam Cortina - would occasionally give me a lift in his father's Moskvich van, which seemed wonderfully agricultural, even after its A35 predecessors!

Indeed he did......Production saloon challenge......we used to be competing in Special Saloons at the same time, funnily enough one time wandering around the paddock at Brands we had a good look at his Mosky, I noticed it had a slightly larger knob than was usual for the windscreen washer......upon looking a bit closer (very carefully of course) I found several solid pipes from the rear....odd for a washer, closer inspection revealed it was a brake balance valve disguised as a washer pump knob (the old fashioned type you has to pump).......just a bit illegal in production saloons, but then again we raced in the Mini special saloon series with a Riley Elf shell, having the extra length of bodywork behind the rear wheels enabled us when converting it to rear beam axle (as was the norm) was to replace the panels with ally sheeting while at the same time moving the axle back about an inch and a half, made a huge difference to handling for a Mini.......Never once picked up by the Screws........great days back then 

[PhilJ W]

All this talk of car bits 'rescued' reminded of this:-

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

I suspect [from a good friend's personal experience, ]..that MGB's are in a similar position?  Or Morris Minors?

Of course, the aftermarket spares industry for old cars is one reason why the 'classic' vehicle industry is encouraged so much by the Government...it is a many multi million pound industry....

MGBs and other models with the Octagonal badge are well served for parts, but sadly the quality is often poor, especially for imported items. Distributors condensers often don't last long, while trim items such as headlamp surrounds are a very poor fit. Chrome plating is often poor and while it is more expensive it is a commonly held view it is better to get original parts re-chromed. 

 

I once had a colleague who had served time at Longbridge during his training. His tales of the workers exploits in "liberating" parts were numerous and often hilarious.

[alastairq]

1 minute ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

MGBs and other models with the Octagonal badge are well served for parts, but sadly the quality is often poor, especially for imported items. Distributors condensers often don't last long, while trim items such as headlamp surrounds are a very poor fit. Chrome plating is often poor and while it is more expensive it is a commonly held view it is better to get original parts re-chromed. 

That is the same all over the world it seems?

One has to be 'selective'......and not just rely/trust a large dealer's website lists?

I think the policies of those contracting Far Eastern factories to make those parts is based o the assumption the average Austin A30 owner isn't going to drive more than a few hundred miles a year? Therefore why specify a part that hopefully will last thousands of miles?

We have seen the odd glitch where a Chinese factory produced rotor arms to specification,but to colour them black , the factory used  a high proportion of carbon [I think it was?], in the plastic mix?.......Not ideal in a rotor arm?

On the whole, whilst the Chinese get the blame for these poor quality parts...it isn't actually their fault. They only produce what is specified....

The fact that China [and other emerging industrial nations] actually make a frightful amount of components for our brand new cars, seems to have escaped those who criticize China regarding quality?    Folk forget that for a long while, the great & glorious Lucas had many of their electrical components manufactured  in Eastern Europe, by PAL, no less....so many of the British cars running around had a significant proportion of Skoda stuff in them.

And we all know how much the British driving{?} public used to take the wee-wee out of skodas at one time?

[Kickstart]

11 hours ago, MrWolf said:

BMW and Mercedes Benz are two of only e few that are happy to source parts if they can for obsolete models. Ford and Vauxhall have their heritage departments who can usually put you in touch with someone who can help, I have certainly found they are keen to keep their cars from the thirties to the sixties running.

On motorcycles, Honda until the early 1990s guaranteed to supply parts for any bike they had ever made. They dropped that but said they would still provide almost all parts. Now they are pretty poor for older spares *or maybe my experience there is with 2 strokes that Honda try to pretend they never made!) 

 

8 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

A lot of bikes used to come with a tool kit but they are not made of the best materials (as you found out), so are not that much use in the long run.

One advantage is that Japanese bike tool kits came with JIS screw drivers which actually fitted the cross head bolts they used. Most people assumed they were Philips head, hence chewed them up with the wrong screw drivers.

 

All the best

 

Katy 

[MrWolf]

Nothing wrong with Skoda, they're one of the oldest manufacturers still trading. I quite fancy one of the half-tracks that they knocked up for their neighbours 80 years ago...

As for quality problems with Chinese made parts, it's far from isolationist propaganda. 

I did a bit of consultancy work for a company some years ago who were having quality problems with Chinese made parts. They owned the factory over in China and were having big problems with expanded PTFE gaskets for aircraft. After a little research, the answer was simple. Although the company was following the Henry Ford principle, bringing in unskilled workers from rural areas and training them to perform a tiny part of the production process, the components were failing. 

So engineers were sent out to refresh the training and a perfect batch of gaskets were made and accepted back in Blighty. As so often happens with classic car and bike parts, the next batch of these safety critical parts failed inspection.

This is where I got myself branded a cynic for publishing my report. 

The workers were very poorly paid in order to make the sums work for others and were paid on piece work. They soon figured out the only way to produce enough to make a living wage was to cut a few corners, increasing the number of parts made. I concluded that until the pay structure of the British owned Chinese factory was overhauled, the problem would continue, regardless of how many engineering consultants travelled to China, the cost of which could have been better spent elsewhere.

[MrWolf]

A lot of the smaller Honda's are made in Brazil and the quality isn't great. I don't think that they have heard of primer.

The problem with the screws apart from the in house style of head was the material. Some sort of cheese I think? I know plenty of professional motorcycle mechanics who avoid taking screws out of cycle parts whenever they can, due to the likelihood of them snapping off. This is particularly a problem with bikes that are used in anger, eg ridden to work in the rain, rather than being a member of the 200 miles a year club.

Lightweight bikes also tend to get abused by learners who only possess a pair of mole grips. They also have a mate who owns a claw hammer.

[PhilJ W]

I have tool kits from several Japanese cars. When I had my Nissan Prairie for some spare parts I went to a specialist Japanese car breaker. At that time (25 years ago) you were still allowed to root around the yard. Quite often you would find a tool kit in a wrecked car and as most of my tools at the time were imperial it made an ideal way to get a few more metric tools. I always made a point of paying for them, it was very rarely more than 50p or a pound and on a couple of occasions they said I didn't have to pay.

[MrWolf]

I mentioned earlier the stash of tools and parts in the boot of RRH's Triumph Herald. Amongst them is a reversible screwdriver with the old Datsun logo on it. It's well made enough to get you out of trouble but naff enough not to get borrowed for something else and never returned.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Nothing wrong with Skoda, they're one of the oldest manufacturers still trading. I quite fancy one of the half-tracks that they knocked up for their neighbours 80 years ago...

As for quality problems with Chinese made parts, it's far from isolationist propaganda. 

I did a bit of consultancy work for a company some years ago who were having quality problems with Chinese made parts. They owned the factory over in China and were having big problems with expanded PTFE gaskets for aircraft. After a little research, the answer was simple. Although the company was following the Henry Ford principle, bringing in unskilled workers from rural areas and training them to perform a tiny part of the production process, the components were failing. 

So engineers were sent out to refresh the training and a perfect batch of gaskets were made and accepted back in Blighty. As so often happens with classic car and bike parts, the next batch of these safety critical parts failed inspection.

This is where I got myself branded a cynic for publishing my report. 

The workers were very poorly paid in order to make the sums work for others and were paid on piece work. They soon figured out the only way to produce enough to make a living wage was to cut a few corners, increasing the number of parts made. I concluded that until the pay structure of the British owned Chinese factory was overhauled, the problem would continue, regardless of how many engineering consultants travelled to China, the cost of which could have been better spent elsewhere.

The assumption/stereotype of China as a 3rd world manufacturer will take a long time to overcome, but you are right that while they CAN manufacture to the highest quality, their understanding of things like patent and contract law leads to all sorts of problems.  I read a few years ago about the trend "inshoring" manufacture of even quite common parts, when a lot of UK companies found they could not get consistent quality from China.  A recurring problem was that they would sign a contract to produce a widget to a certain surface finish, using a certain grade of material etc, then as soon as the Western engineers left they sub-contracted to a backstreet operation.  Here they would actually churn out the product using dubious materials and without a hope of achieving the correct surface finish, but crucially, the prime contractor could still make a profit on the contract.

[Rugd1022]

4 hours ago, alastairq said:

Depending on the model of car...and how much kudos the type acquired back in its day.....there are many older cars that have a spares backup that would be the envy of any modern motorcar owner.

My old '67 Ford Mustang is one such model....every nut , bolt, trim piece or mechanical component can be had, 'new' from the US, certainly....

A lot  is down to Ford's tendency to raid their own parts bins at time of production.

msot is down to an aftermarket spares industry started back in the day, when people discovered that Ford had more or less ceased to provide certain essential parts...when there were thousands, if not millions, of the model still out there running.  I refer in  particular to how Scott Drake started, by seeking out the profile of the rubber boot seal that Ford stopped supplying....buying a few hundred yards wholesale from a rubber seal manufacturer, cutting off the right length, and flogging t' Mustang owners to cure leaky boots. Form that humble beginning  stemmed a huge parts inventory.

So that today, I can order any mechanical or service item, online, that will arrive on my doorstep here in the UK....but 4 or 5 days after ordering, at a cost that matches...or is significantly lower than, a similar item for one of this century's motors.....!

 

I suspect [from a good friend's personal experience, ]..that MGB's are in a similar position?  Or Morris Minors?

Of course, the aftermarket spares industry for old cars is one reason why the 'classic' vehicle industry is encouraged so much by the Government...it is a many multi million pound industry....

 

 

 

When Keith Dodds started Minispares in Potters Bar back in the '70s he followed a similar trajectory, starting off by supplying popular service items and various small parts from original tooling, over forty years later his company has invested millions in producing new parts for every kind of Mini which are so much better than the cheaper alternatives coming from China. The quality gets better and better and there are only a few parts now that they've yet to make, and the range now includes all of the variants such as the vans, estates, Elfs and Hornets etc.

 

Meanwhile, back in the realm of rose tinted Italianate nostalgia, a lovely patinated Maserati Tipo 26....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jcredfer]

One of the Directors of a well known UK model radio-control planes was visiting one of the shops they supply.  When asked about the progress on a new, rather nice Parkfly model, it produced the roll-eye effect.  Whilst he did confirm that it was within a couple of weeks, he added "Now!"

 

Apparently, they had sent the spec to their usual contractor and by agreement some parts were outsourced.  In the event, the samples were made and sent to the UK for checking.  It looked really good and they were well pleased with that, but.....  it soon became apparent that the radio receiver wasn't quite as specified.  The engineer had put it on a test program and some of the figures weren't as the original intended.  Nothing huge, but enough to have a closer look, which identified a component which wasn't the spec one.  Emails were exchanged and assurances obtained that the main contractor would "sort" the sub contractor.

 

Before long replacement receiver boards arrived in the UK, for checking.  The offending component had been replaced as instructed.....  but, replaced with another alternative that wasn't the spec, either.  He discussed it with the Board and agreed that he would take it up, personally, when he went to discuss some other projects, the next week, which he did.  Having spoken with the main contractor, he was taken to speak with the sub contractor, who pointed out that the replacement was a penny cheaper than the spec and would do the same job, more profit.  Cutting the tale short, he spent an hour telling the guy that he wanted to have the components, precisely as spec and wasn't interested in anything different.  He was more patient than me, but at that point he left, informed the main contractor that a new sub contractor must be found - now.

 

It turned out that a new sub contractor was very quickly found and the planes were on their way...  as spec and they still are.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, alastairq said:

That is the same all over the world it seems?

One has to be 'selective'......and not just rely/trust a large dealer's website lists?

I think the policies of those contracting Far Eastern factories to make those parts is based o the assumption the average Austin A30 owner isn't going to drive more than a few hundred miles a year? Therefore why specify a part that hopefully will last thousands of miles?

We have seen the odd glitch where a Chinese factory produced rotor arms to specification,but to colour them black , the factory used  a high proportion of carbon [I think it was?], in the plastic mix?.......Not ideal in a rotor arm?

On the whole, whilst the Chinese get the blame for these poor quality parts...it isn't actually their fault. They only produce what is specified....

The fact that China [and other emerging industrial nations] actually make a frightful amount of components for our brand new cars, seems to have escaped those who criticize China regarding quality?    Folk forget that for a long while, the great & glorious Lucas had many of their electrical components manufactured  in Eastern Europe, by PAL, no less....so many of the British cars running around had a significant proportion of Skoda stuff in them.

And we all know how much the British driving{?} public used to take the wee-wee out of skodas at one time?

Knowing what are "good" parts for a classic is difficult, until you have bought, fitted (or tried )  and used them. 

 

Lucas are still  referred to as the Lord of Darkness on the MGOC forum, so perhaps their products weren't always as reliable as we tend to think of from a premium British manufacturer.

The product will only be as good as it is specified, provided it is manufactured to that spec. Whether the issue is that imported products are poorly specified, poorly made or a combination of the two is open to conjecture. We will probably never know but there is a fairly strongly held view that the commissioners of replacement parts believe that price is the primary consideration, which is often the cause of poorly made parts.

 

 

[boxbrownie]

I specifically went to China to one of our suppliers as we were having a few "issues" re quality.......I don't think I should post any of the images I took whilst there but suffice to say the manufacturing process of spark plugs was out of Dickension times, bad lighting, dirty filthy work stations (If that's the correct word!) and virtually all young girls and barely old enough kids on the lathes, presses and assembly jigs......oh yes and the lubricant at a couple of the lathes I found out was WATER!!!

 

We also had some prototype springs delivered for assessment and sign off (these were from India) and upon loading the small commercial van (name withheld) with the standard eurocontainer tonne loading......the van proceeded around the test circuit, upon return the load was removed and the van stayed in the laden position....very odd.....springs off close inspection revealed they had not been heat treated or processed, they basically supplied us with WROUGHT IRON lengths of metal, not springs at all......that was a wasted few days at the track!

 

I won't even mention the engine block castings that came back from (India again) a foundry that had left enough casting sand in the blocks to extend the beach at Southend on Sea another mile or so 

Edited November 1, 2020 by boxbrownie

[MrWolf]

Lucas is referred to on the BSA forums as the "Prince of darkness" from the company strapline "King of the road". It's tongue in cheek though. When you think about it, Lucas et al were among the pioneers of miniaturisation. They took the dynamo, which in mains form on steam engines weighed around half a ton and created something that weighed around ten pounds that would put out six volts in a moving vehicle, along what passed for roads 100 years ago. Not long afterwards, they shrank the concept to a quarter of the size for use on motorcycles in a position totally exposed to the weather. Most of the time, they worked and the design didn't need to change until superseded by the alternator ( once they could be made small and reliable) if they did break, you could fix them.

To be perfectly honest, the biggest problems I have had with pre 1975 British car and motorcycle electrics are bodging and sheer neglect.

Edited November 1, 2020 by MrWolf

[Kickstart]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Nothing wrong with Skoda, they're one of the oldest manufacturers still trading. I quite fancy one of the half-tracks that they knocked up for their neighbours 80 years ago...

They built some post was but with a different engine and an armoured roof

 

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

The problem with the screws apart from the in house style of head was the material. Some sort of cheese I think? I know plenty of professional motorcycle mechanics who avoid taking screws out of cycle parts whenever they can, due to the likelihood of them snapping off. a pair of mole grips. They also have a mate who owns a claw hammer.

Biggest problem is that people chew the heads up using Philips screw drivers on them. But they are not Philips heads, rather JIS, which is quite similar but slightly different at the very point (amount other small changes), and a Philips screw driver in a JIS head will not seat fully and will cam out very easily (Philips are designed to cam out to prevent fasteners being over tightened anyway, while JIS are not designed to).

 

JIS screw drivers are available (Vessel make very nice ones).

 

All the best

 

Katy

[PatB]

3 hours ago, MrWolf said:

A lot of the smaller Honda's are made in Brazil and the quality isn't great. I don't think that they have heard of primer.

The problem with the screws apart from the in house style of head was the material. Some sort of cheese I think? I know plenty of professional motorcycle mechanics who avoid taking screws out of cycle parts whenever they can, due to the likelihood of them snapping off. This is particularly a problem with bikes that are used in anger, eg ridden to work in the rain, rather than being a member of the 200 miles a year club.

Lightweight bikes also tend to get abused by learners who only possess a pair of mole grips. They also have a mate who owns a claw hammer.

True, but I had a couple of proper, Made in Japan Hondas, way back, and, once the gloss had worn off, they were pretty crappily finished too, with a tendency to dissolve if actually used in typical UK weather. 

 

I tend to agree with you on Lucas (and PAL for that matter). Way back, my family did many, many tens of thousands of miles in cars equipped with Joe's finest. Major electrical failures were rare. The old electromechanical voltage regulators were temperamental, and one did take a dynamo with it (after hundreds of miles with an obvious problem) but that is the only major failure I can remember. Notably we never had a starter solenoid fail. On my Toyota Hilux the contacts in the apparently wonderful Nippondenso starter solenoid regularly erode to nothingness, requiring me to pull the not brilliantly accessible starter motor, disembowel the solenoid and silver solder bits of copper to the worn areas before fettling them back to shape. 

 

As for Chinese manufacturing, I was, for a couple of years, part of the federal government department overseeing compliance of vehicle manufacturers with the Australian Design Rules process. A large part of this was arranging audits of factories to ensure that what they were manufacturing continued to be what was originally approved. Experience of these audits gels perfectly with Northmoor's comments about subcontracting. 

[MrWolf]

Fun was had with 1950s/60s Skoda half-tracks when you could get them for £3500, cutting out the roofs, altering the front mudguards and fitting MG34 mounts for film work and reenactors. Original Sdkfz 250s are mortgage money now and it has pushed the prices of converted Skodas through the roof too.

[MrWolf]

I am always surprised at those clear plastic wiring connectors on Japanese bikes. They seem to have been carefully designed to collect rain. The copper inside either goes green or black and repels any attempts to clean or cut back. Hence the depressing moment you get when taking the tank off a modern bike and a whole rats nest of scotch locks, crimps and insulation tape falls out.

[peanuts]

21 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I am always surprised at those clear plastic wiring connectors on Japanese bikes. They seem to have been carefully designed to collect rain. The copper inside either goes green or black and repels any attempts to clean or cut back. Hence the depressing moment you get when taking the tank off a modern bike and a whole rats nest of scotch locks, crimps and insulation tape falls out.

a friend bought a second hand fully preped  Talbot Samba rallye for road rally use that we were advised had a few electrical issues which on further inspection turned out to be an understatement the " custom loom and fuse box " turned out to be a dogs dinner of scotchlock/bullet  connectors grafted onto a cut up standard loom . eventualy was replaced with a proper custom loom built by  an auto electritian friend  we eventualy pulled out some 50+ scotchlock and bullet connectors from the rats nest behind the dash 

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

I am always surprised at those clear plastic wiring connectors on Japanese bikes. They seem to have been carefully designed to collect rain. The copper inside either goes green or black and repels any attempts to clean or cut back. Hence the depressing moment you get when taking the tank off a modern bike and a whole rats nest of scotch locks, crimps and insulation tape falls out.

Presume they are very cheap and easy to assemble (presume mainly intended to prevent a live shorting out), but aftermarket you can get ones with a clear sheath on both the male and female connectors. Work pretty well.

 

Scotch Loks are awful things, and the pre insulated red / blue / yellow connectors are a sign to be very wary!

All the best

 

Katy

[steve1]

Please can have some car pictures mister?

 

steve