For those interested in old cars.

[MJI]

3 hours ago, Phil Traxson said:

Got to say I agree about the 1.0ltr Sunbeam, the wife went from an Imp to a  Sunbeam thinking the slightly bigger engine would be better. Unfortunately it was detuned , different cam I found out on reading the book on the history of the Imp. I could have fixed it to a degree if I had known as I had a spare cam in garage from putting a sports cam on the Bond 875( ish, it was bored a little) that I ran at the time.  The Sunbeam had b------- all weight on the rear driving axle so slid any where and spun the wheels if you looked at the throttle so it was a good job it had no power. I cured all its ills, the wife had some cheap tyres fitted on the front and one wet dark night I had a coming together with the back of a parked, unlit, dark coloured van due to the brakes working but the tyres not. Beyond economic repair.  I was OK, but might not have been if the van had had  a working handbrake. Then she tells me she'd had a couple of "moments" with stopping in the wet since she had the tyres fitted!

I found a tripling of power 1i5 tyres and forest springs sorted mibe. Handling was rather good

[MJI]

I wonder why 185 got broken?

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

I wonder why 185 got broken?

2 ply Nylon sidewalls? 

[Rugd1022]

I think I may have solved a little mystery which has been in the back of my mind for a while - the 'Ed Straker' car in 'UFO' has Ford underpinnings and steel wheels with Porsche / Fuchs style wheel trims attached, at first I thought they were genuine full width Fuchs alloys but there are no wheel nut holes visible, or indeed any wheel nuts. It occurred to me that they could be modified Rover P6 3500S trims, but the series was filmed in 1969 / 70 and the 3500S trims didn't appear until late '71. I recently bought a copy of Brian Long's excellent book on the Porsche 914 and there within is what appears to be the answer, two photos of a pre-production 914 taken in 1969 showing cosmetic Fuchs style hubcaps fitted to a four cylinder version of the car, all of which had four stud steel wheels from the factory, this makes sense as a very early 914 (probably the first example to find its way to the UK) was used in an episode called 'Psychobombs' so it's not much of a stretch to suggest that the production crew used a set of prototype trims from Porsche and fitted them to the Straker mobile.... they protrude more on the 914 but the steel wheels on these were very narrow and they may have been modified to fit the Ford wheels on Straker's car....

 

(As it happens two other Porsches were used in the series, namely a pair of early 911s, a white coupe and a red Targa).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Rugd1022

[Northmoor]

This article is really referring to much newer cars than this thread, but worth a read.

https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/car-extinction/

 

There's possibly some dubious results because extinction would mean extrapolating the graph from the last few years to zero, when in fact cars decline by more of an exponential curve, but interesting nonetheless.

[MrWolf]

It's hardly surprising, cars no longer have the same appeal that they did forty years ago. Little is sold now by marque loyalty, most people go for the best finance / gadget package and choose their cars the same way that you might choose a new refrigerator. The only people who really buy a new car based on its maker are those who wish to make a statement about how well they are doing, or pretending they are doing, two BMWs on the drive and * all in the fridge as my father used to say.

As cars have encompassed more technology, planned obsolescence has finally won. Scrapyards are full of cars that appear to have nothing wrong with them, but are not economically viable to repair. Many aren't ten years old. Yet we hear so much about green motoring and vehicles being close to 100% recyclable. Which is complete bull. Nothing beats longevity and components that can be stripped and repaired. This is something that I learned very quickly being involved in military engineering.

I have often looked at modern cars and thought that very few people are going to be restoring those in fifty years time as a classic. No matter how hard the magazines push so called modern classics.

Eventually all the cars made up to about 1980 will be restricted to days out at pre booked events and the only cars on the road will be high speed milk floats for the few that can afford them. I don't see anyone producing a worthwhile electric car for under £10000 anytime soon and I don't believe they are the green solution that those selling them tell us that they are. 

Time to take a look at some of the suppressed technologies.

[Nick C]

14 hours ago, Northmoor said:

This article is really referring to much newer cars than this thread, but worth a read.

https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/car-extinction/

 

There's possibly some dubious results because extinction would mean extrapolating the graph from the last few years to zero, when in fact cars decline by more of an exponential curve, but interesting nonetheless.

Very silly article - cars like the Escort and Impreza aren't going to vanish (unless by legislation), and one of the Renault is still in production! 

 

I'm definitely with @MrWolf on this one, planned obsolescence and unfixable 'appliance ' cars does far more damage to the environment than running older cars!

 

Mid you, I'm one of those odd people who would rather fix an appliance than replace it - just repaired our dishwasher for £50 instead of buying a new one for £400...

Edited October 31, 2020 by Nick C

[Hobby]

Poorly researched as well, the Mondeo's predecessor was the Escort... Wonder what happened to the Cortina, then?! 

[petethemole]

Or indeed the Sierra?

[Hobby]

Gawd! What at twit, of course it was the Sierra, my mistake was as bad as theirs! 

[PhilJ W]

Of two cars that I once owned one is extinct and one nearly so according to VOSA. The first is the Suzuki SJ jeep. None left on the roads and a handful SORNED. The second is the Nissan Prairie, only two on the road, a dozen or so SORNED plus a few others. In its day the Suzuki was quite popular but was prone to rust. The Prairie was one of the best cars I have ever owned until it was written off in an accident. The problem with them was replacement glass, windscreens in particular. 

[rocor]

20 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

I think I may have solved a little mystery which has been in the back of my mind for a while - the 'Ed Straker' car in 'UFO' has Ford underpinnings and steel wheels with Porsche / Fuchs style wheel trims attached, at first I thought they were genuine full width Fuchs alloys but there are no wheel nut holes visible, or indeed any wheel nuts. It occurred to me that they could be modified Rover P6 3500S trims, but the series was filmed in 1969 / 70 and the 3500S trims didn't appear until late '71. I recently bought a copy of Brian Long's excellent book on the Porsche 914 and there within is what appears to be the answer, two photos of a pre-production 914 taken in 1969 showing cosmetic Fuchs style hubcaps fitted to a four cylinder version of the car, all of which had four stud steel wheels from the factory, this makes sense as a very early 914 (probably the first example to find its way to the UK) was used in an episode called 'Psychobombs' so it's not much of a stretch to suggest that the production crew used a set of prototype trims from Porsche and fitted them to the Straker mobile.... they protrude more on the 914 but the steel wheels on these were very narrow and they may have been modified to fit the Ford wheels on Straker's car....

 

(As it happens two other Porsches were used in the series, namely a pair of early 911s, a white coupe and a red Targa).

 

 

After reading your posting I was interested enough to look for more information about Straker's car. I found this site, with an account of the cars fate.

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2013/12/10/a-childhood-dream-realized-as-a-tv-car-rises-again

[PatB]

Came across this last weekend. I must say, the car park behind my shop seems to be something of a magnet for interesting old vehicles, although, sadly, I didn't get to the camera in time to snap the Cricklewood Bentley that turned up a few months back. 

 

As for the Caravelle, I don't think I'd ever seen one in the wild prior to last Saturday. 

 

[alastairq]

I recall seeing more back in the 1960's and early 1970's...I think they were typically , rust buckets? {Maybe I just saw the same one, lots of times?]

 

Anyway, folk were a little more 'in yer face' in those days, the Caravelle and its predecessor, the Floride were considered to be 'hairdressers' cars...in other words, a soft top to be seen posing in, but with little in the way of sports car substance ?

 

Of course, nowadays, they seem to be a pretty soft top classic car, with simple [easy for spares] mechanicals.

[MJI]

Many cars end up just being top end models. All the basics go to scrap or get used to keep better ones on the road

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, MJI said:

Many cars end up just being top end models. All the basics go to scrap or get used to keep better ones on the road

Or modified to look like a top end version, Fords in particular.

[MJI]

Good example of older cars.

 

Vauxhall Carltons, most remaining appear to be Lotus or GSi.

 

But any mainstream, smallest engine extinct, best engines common.

 

As to the above I used to own the smallest acceptable engine in a Carlton, the 2.0 injection. The 1800s were horrible.

[Northmoor]

6 minutes ago, MJI said:

Good example of older cars.

 

Vauxhall Carltons, most remaining appear to be Lotus or GSi.

 

But any mainstream, smallest engine extinct, best engines common.

 

As to the above I used to own the smallest acceptable engine in a Carlton, the 2.0 injection. The 1800s were horrible.

This is very true, there always a disproportionate number of the luxury/hot versions of common cars survive.

 

You can always spot the lazy TV directors of "period" programmes set in the 60s/70s; if we didn't know better it would appear that about 50% of people drove a soft-top MG, as opposed to the >95% who actually drove Morris Minors, Ford Anglias etc.  Fortunately lots of these do survive, but they are the lucky exception.

 

In terms of "planned obsolescence", don't underestimate how the car manufacturers have, whilst complaining about meeting emissions targets, lobbied governments to push for legislation that means your longer lasting car now needs to be scrapped long before it is life-expired.  remember how they pushed for most spares to be classed as "safety-critical", so that they couldn't be supplied by third parties?  At least the EU stood firm on that one, but the manufacturers even got the UK government to pay for a scrappage scheme, which mostly subsidised sales to some of the largest companies on Earth.

[jchinuk]

22 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

I think I may have solved a little mystery which has been in the back of my mind for a while - the 'Ed Straker' car in 'UFO' has Ford underpinnings and steel wheels with Porsche / Fuchs style wheel trims attached, at first I thought they were genuine full width Fuchs alloys but there are no wheel nut holes visible, or indeed any wheel nuts. It occurred to me that they could be modified Rover P6 3500S trims, but the series was filmed in 1969 / 70 and the 3500S trims didn't appear until late '71. I recently bought a copy of Brian Long's excellent book on the Porsche 914 and there within is what appears to be the answer, two photos of a pre-production 914 taken in 1969 showing cosmetic Fuchs style hubcaps fitted to a four cylinder version of the car, all of which had four stud steel wheels from the factory, this makes sense as a very early 914 (probably the first example to find its way to the UK) was used in an episode called 'Psychobombs' so it's not much of a stretch to suggest that the production crew used a set of prototype trims from Porsche and fitted them to the Straker mobile.... they protrude more on the 914 but the steel wheels on these were very narrow and they may have been modified to fit the Ford wheels on Straker's car....

 

(As it happens two other Porsches were used in the series, namely a pair of early 911s, a white coupe and a red Targa).

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a fascinating article about a replicas of Straker's car (immortalised by Dinky Toys) here.

jch

[PhilJ W]

With regard to 'safety critical' components. The Japanese have or had a law saying that only components supplied by the manufacturer were to be used for repairs. This is why there were so many 'grey imports' a few years ago. These grey imports didn't all come to the UK, many went to Africa and the Indian sub continent and other countries that drive on the left.

[alastairq]

I have to admit...to having a preference to the more basic models of the smaller older  cars...For example, a basic Pug 205 instead of a GTI...?

Or a 106?

 

There are very very few small engined, small cars that cannot keep up with modern traffic speeds [ just got in from a trip out, 45 mph being the traffic speeds on a national speed limit [rural] road...all those moderns must have been on limp mode?  { Driver? Or car?}

Often the smaller engined versions are lighter and more nimble to drive...Plus, none of the excess trim and gadgets that one has to keep working?

Narrower tyres so cheaper to buy...and using less petrol too......Cheap to buy as well, because nobody really wants them.....{ I'm not a herd animal in any way shape or form]

[Jol Wilkinson]

6 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

This is very true, there always a disproportionate number of the luxury/hot versions of common cars survive.

 

You can always spot the lazy TV directors of "period" programmes set in the 60s/70s; if we didn't know better it would appear that about 50% of people drove a soft-top MG, as opposed to the >95% who actually drove Morris Minors, Ford Anglias etc.  Fortunately lots of these do survive, but they are the lucky exception.

 

In terms of "planned obsolescence", don't underestimate how the car manufacturers have, whilst complaining about meeting emissions targets, lobbied governments to push for legislation that means your longer lasting car now needs to be scrapped long before it is life-expired.  remember how they pushed for most spares to be classed as "safety-critical", so that they couldn't be supplied by third parties?  At least the EU stood firm on that one, but the manufacturers even got the UK government to pay for a scrappage scheme, which mostly subsidised sales to some of the largest companies on Earth.

I don't share the view about "planned obsolescence" with regard to cars or white goods. They are  more likely designed for a minimum life cycle, not a maximum one. Planned obsolescence is more relevant to consumer electronics and software, managed by introducing "improved products" with features the user doesn't need or can't use. Add in the "average" consumers desire to show off the latest "must have" product and the need to expend lots of effort into designing something that will specifically expire after X miles or Y months of use is pointless.

Having spent the great majority of my career in the motor industry, I know that controlling the manufacture of "pattern parts" , safety related or not is (or was) nigh on impossible by European or UK legislation It was and probably still is, possible to buy parts that look like the OE item, down to manufacturers ID marks, etc. but which were of significantly inferior quality.

Going back to old cars, one issue regularly complained of is the poor quality of modern production components. As the owner of a 1973 MGB, I take great care to ensure any components I have to get come from as reputable supplier as possible but as much of these items are now sourced in eastern Europe or Asia, it isn't easy.

[MJI]

19 minutes ago, alastairq said:

I have to admit...to having a preference to the more basic models of the smaller older  cars...For example, a basic Pug 205 instead of a GTI...?

Or a 106?

 

There are very very few small engined, small cars that cannot keep up with modern traffic speeds [ just got in from a trip out, 45 mph being the traffic speeds on a national speed limit [rural] road...all those moderns must have been on limp mode?  { Driver? Or car?}

Often the smaller engined versions are lighter and more nimble to drive...Plus, none of the excess trim and gadgets that one has to keep working?

Narrower tyres so cheaper to buy...and using less petrol too......Cheap to buy as well, because nobody really wants them.....{ I'm not a herd animal in any way shape or form]

 

Sometimes the fuel differences are not great due to gearing, and the need to thrash to get going is tiring.

 

Better to have a lazy bit larger engine than a small highly strung one for normal use. Or can just feel too slow to enjoy.

 

Try a blobby Astra the CDEF era ones.

 

1.2 is horrid and should never have been done. 1.3 is great, 1.6 hardly any better than 1.3, 1.8 and 2.0 are quick perhaps too quick. Nova 1.2 was so much nicer than 1.0, 1.3 not noticable better than 1.2.

[Northmoor]

31 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I don't share the view about "planned obsolescence" with regard to cars or white goods. They are  more likely designed for a minimum life cycle, not a maximum one. Planned obsolescence is more relevant to consumer electronics and software, managed by introducing "improved products" with features the user doesn't need or can't use.

Obsolescence is defined as the planned loss of availability of the original item or spare parts for it; when they are genuinely not available, they are obselete.  What you have described for white goods does occur in the car trade too, where hard-to-repair systems are introduced (because they are supplied to the OEMs as assemblies, they are cheaper to build into the car than the seprate components) which after five years, are replaced in a new model.  After another five years, those special spares seem to have vanished so the car becomes unsupportable; for instance a completely serviceable car might have to be scrapped for the loss of a handbrake indicator switch, as the warning light means an MOT failure.

 

I'm not (just) a misty-eyed nostalgic; I run an 18y.o. car that looks like some of my previous cars have looked at five years and grew up in an era where almost no cars lasted for 18 years.  But it is frustrating to see so much raw material (and the energy used to process it) wasted when drivable, economical cars are scrapped for want of a £20 component.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Thanks for clarifying the definition of planned obsolescence. Mine was slightly different;

 

"a policy of producing consumer goods that rapidly become obsolete and so require replacing, achieved by frequent changes in design, termination of the supply of spare parts, and the use of non-durable materials".

 

That agrees on termination of spare parts, although the time scale isn't defined and I wasn't aware of a particular policy for a defining how long parts would be made available when I worked in the automobile industry. More likely a combination of factors came into play including economics. One thing many of us agreed on, but weren't able to influence, was the need to reduce parts pricing as a model aged, rather than increase them with inflation. The accountants always won that one.

 

The availability of otherwise prohibitively expensive parts has partly been unwittingly solved by vehicle recyclers, where it is possible to get ECU,s etc. for relatively reasonable prices. Reverting to MGB's there are several go to sources where items that are not otherwise available can be found.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Jol Wilkinson
Slightly amended text to make sense