For those interested in old cars.

[MrWolf]

Makes me think of a certain Austin 7 Ulster on period Avon 4.00-19 tyres of indeterminate age. You could slide around bends, sawing at the steering wheel, or suddenly find grip and feel those wire wheels bending underneath you. Lots of fun steering both ends with the throttle. I do like a rear drive car, it's like a horse, supported on four legs with the rear ones doing the hardest work.

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Handling flair? That's part of the fun. You don't just sit there like a cabbage expecting the tech to drive it for you. When newer cars lose it, it's without warning I found. I remember driving a good number of high end fwd hatchbacks on which the rear end would suddenly hop off line on a bend. Torque steer, lack of traction despite the engine weight over the wheels, uselessness in snow or ice are just a few pet hates! 

 

I think it's not that it's sudden, it's that the breakaway is at least 30mph faster than the 60s car would run out of grip.

 

I agree about modern cars to a degree though, they flatter the driver so that when there is no grip (packed snow/ice), most drivers have absolutely no idea what to do.  My Zephyr-driving mate (see previous pages) was always told you can't use RWD on snow.  He used to enjoy burbling about snowy Derbyshire villages, past Mk3 Escorts sat with their wheels spinning furiously.

[boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, alastairq said:

 Or, appeared to?

The answer [as seen on Simca Rallyes?...another make I forgot to mention..or was it Renault R8? Gordini?].....was to lower the springs to create a natural negative camber stance.

Then, keep the power down from just before every apex. [And apply good observational techniques first.....or, slow down?]

Negative camber to that degree  made a lot of folk uncomfortable.....but it works [on tarmac]...

 

Of course, possibly the most famous swing axle cars [so famous, I forgot about them?]....were the pre-wawer Auto Union GP cars?  

[Now, they could get quite a lot of positive camber in bends....as a few photos attest?]

And don’t forget the infamous Renault Dauphine......god awful car!

 

Our BMW 2002tii had a lovely SA rear suspension, worked perfectly.......but compared to today’s vehicle’s handling....nah. 

[steve1]

Never had any problems with the handling of my Vit in the 11 years I owned it. It was a Mk II with the revised rear suspension.  I never backed off, or braked, during a corner and would feed the power in when I was past the apex. Worked for me.

 

steve

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, steve1 said:

Never had any problems with the handling of my Vit in the 11 years I owned it. It was a Mk II with the revised rear suspension.  I never backed off, or braked, during a corner and would feed the power in when I was past the apex. Worked for me.

 

steve

 

A true case of Know thy beast!

[russ p]

7 hours ago, MJI said:

 

How similar was this to the M?

 

The ones which would have been good were the G (sold to India) and the not built TD4 & TD6.

 

The L got replaced with a BMW lump, could have been a G (Rover) or a TD4 (LR), what a missed opportunity.

 

Fairly similar to the M series,  I used a modified M series inlet manifold on it as the original was SPi 

The distributor was on the inlet cam rather than the exhaust.  Will try and find some pictures. 

It had plain cam covers which I did in crackle finish red.

Such a shame the 16v G didn't get in the ZT I have a ZT and a ZR and the L series though a bit noisier run rings round the BMW engine.  That is a huge lump and in basic form only 113bhp both have had sensible remaps and the ZR in economy mode is around 160 and no smoke and 50 plus mpg and about 175 in power which I rarely use a bit of smoke but not much 

The ZT is about 155 but nowhere near as much torque as the ZRs updated sherpa engine 

My van is a fantastic engine not fast but a plodder and upto 60mpg on a run . Apparently the turbo D maestro was even better but only 50 vans were ever made

 

The G series is actually is in a chevrollet 

[PatB]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Makes me think of a certain Austin 7 Ulster on period Avon 4.00-19 tyres of indeterminate age. You could slide around bends, sawing at the steering wheel, or suddenly find grip and feel those wire wheels bending underneath you. Lots of fun steering both ends with the throttle. I do like a rear drive car, it's like a horse, supported on four legs with the rear ones doing the hardest work.

I've been suspicious of grippy tyres on A7s since seeing one at Curborough trip over its outside rear, flip, and land on its driver hard enough to bounce and complete its 360 roll. I think he survived, but it was a bit nasty. 

 

The car was running 15" rims with 2CV sized radials, at least on the back, as I remember. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by PatB

[MrWolf]

3 hours ago, PatB said:

I've been suspicious of grippy tyres on A7s since seeing one at Curborough trip over its outside rear, flip, and land on its driver hard enough to bounce and complete its 360 roll. I think he survived, but it was a bit nasty. 

 

The car was running 15" rims with 2CV sized radials, at least on the back, as I remember. 

 

Nasty, rock hard old sidecar tyres are much more fun. They only seem to grip if others have left too much rubber on the road surface.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, steve1 said:

It was a Mk II with the revised rear suspension.  

I think that is the important bit 

[MJI]

10 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Fairly similar to the M series,  I used a modified M series inlet manifold on it as the original was SPi 

The distributor was on the inlet cam rather than the exhaust.  Will try and find some pictures. 

It had plain cam covers which I did in crackle finish red.

Such a shame the 16v G didn't get in the ZT I have a ZT and a ZR and the L series though a bit noisier run rings round the BMW engine.  That is a huge lump and in basic form only 113bhp both have had sensible remaps and the ZR in economy mode is around 160 and no smoke and 50 plus mpg and about 175 in power which I rarely use a bit of smoke but not much 

The ZT is about 155 but nowhere near as much torque as the ZRs updated sherpa engine 

My van is a fantastic engine not fast but a plodder and upto 60mpg on a run . Apparently the turbo D maestro was even better but only 50 vans were ever made

 

The G series is actually is in a chevrollet 

 

 

The L is pretty tunable, 175 from a 2.0l engine is pretty good.

 

I am getting about 170 from a 2.5, but nothing beyond a remap.

[russ p]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

 

 

The L is pretty tunable, 175 from a 2.0l engine is pretty good.

 

I am getting about 170 from a 2.5, but nothing beyond a remap.

 

Apparently some people are getting 200 but the turbos don't last long at 30psi

Mine has rover 200 SDi injectors and a few other mods  which were done before I bought it but the remap I had done this year made a massive difference. 

I know of a few maestro vans with L series engines. 

I prefer to keep the prima in my van for the nostalgic clatter or 80s diesel Britain 

[Phil Traxson]

23 hours ago, johnlambert said:

Swing axles were once very popular (with manufacturers, if not drivers).  Lots of cheap, rear-engined cars had swing axles.  Think about the small Fiats (500, 600, 850), Simca, Renault and probably more.  And don't forget the Hillman Imp with swing axles at both ends.

 

Mercedes-Benz used swing axles from about the 1930s on its passenger cars; I think Mercedes made the transition straight from leaf springs and solid axles at both ends to independend suspension at both ends.

 

Mercedes had an unusual layout on the last cars to carry swing axles (from 1954); rather than fixing the differential to the structure of the car and having pivoting half-shafts  on both sides the differential was in unit with one of the half shafts pivoted.  It somewhat tamed the behaviour of swing axles by reducing the opportunity for camber changes. 

 

Official story from Daimler Benz here.

 

 With suspension, as far as I can tell, it doesn't necessarily matter so much what method you use; as the subtleties of geometry and springing can cause problems with just about any set-up.

The Imp has coil sprung trailing arms at the back.

[MJI]

34 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Apparently some people are getting 200 but the turbos don't last long at 30psi

Mine has rover 200 SDi injectors and a few other mods  which were done before I bought it but the remap I had done this year made a massive difference. 

I know of a few maestro vans with L series engines. 

I prefer to keep the prima in my van for the nostalgic clatter or 80s diesel Britain 

 

Most bonkers I have heard for mine is 280 but that was stroked.

 

I know of a few VNT users running around 200, very few over.

 

Needs new intercoolers to go over 170

[russ p]

11 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

Most bonkers I have heard for mine is 280 but that was stroked.

 

I know of a few VNT users running around 200, very few over.

 

Needs new intercoolers to go over 170

 

Is yours the TD5 engine? 

Is that engine a 5 pot version of the L series not an engine I've had much to do with 

[MrWolf]

56 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Apparently some people are getting 200 but the turbos don't last long at 30psi

Mine has rover 200 SDi injectors and a few other mods  which were done before I bought it but the remap I had done this year made a massive difference. 

I know of a few maestro vans with L series engines. 

I prefer to keep the prima in my van for the nostalgic clatter or 80s diesel Britain 

 

I had a Maestro diesel van on an F plate for a while. Nearly as fast as a diesel Astramax, which as everyone who had one knew, was the fastest vehicle on earth, forget Lamborghini's or the space shuttle. Which is probably why there's none left! 

The Maestro was a good lugger, all I ever had to do with the engine was change the cambelt, which involved a home made crank lock and a lot of 7/32 drills. I never had to touch the (Passat?) gearbox. 

The gearbox mounting snapped off, allowing the whole lot to jam the remote shifter, which was awful anyway. I limped home with only 2nd and 4th gear and the main dealer got me the right mounting at the third attempt. I then found that the mounting bolts were in the wrong way and couldn't be withdrawn without hitting the bell housing. Half an hour with a hacksaw blade took the heads off. 

Other joys were constantly replacing the awful plastic door handles, they kept snapping off. Other things that broke were: Both seat backs snapped off. I weigh 13 stone is all. The dog (7stone) occupied the other seat. The light switch failed at least three times. The seatbelts fell apart. The window winders snapped off, the mechanism fell apart. The headlight adjusters, again plastic, snapped off several times and at one point I got stopped by a cop who said: "You've got no headlight on the driver's side". I said I bet it's just a dodgy bulb. His reply was "I mean you have NO headlight, it's fallen out!"

Eventually it decided that it wouldn't start, so we rolled it down the bottom of the garden and defied the damn thing. A great van, badly made.

I went back to a 1959 Bedford and never had any troubles other than not winning drag races!

Edited October 22, 2020 by MrWolf
Typo

[johnlambert]

55 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

The Imp has coil sprung trailing arms at the back.

I stand corrected, or semi-corrected as they were semi-trailing arms.

[russ p]

16 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

I had a Maestro diesel van on an F plate for a while. Nearly as fast as a diesel Astramax, which as everyone who had one knew, was the fastest vehicle on earth, forget Lamborghini's or the space shuttle. Which is probably why there's none left! 

The Maestro was a good lugger, all I ever had to do with the engine was change the cambelt, which involved a home made crank lock and a lot of 7/32 drills. I never had to touch the (Passat?) gearbox. 

The gearbox mounting snapped off, allowing the whole lot to jam the remote shifter, which was awful anyway. I limped home with only 2nd and 4th gear and the main dealer got me the right mounting at the third attempt. I then found that the mounting bolts were in the wrong way and couldn't be withdrawn without hitting the bell housing. Half an hour with a hacksaw blade took the heads off. 

Other joys were constantly replacing the awful plastic door handles, they kept snapping off. Other things that broke were: Both seat backs snapped off. I weigh 13 stone is all. The dog (7stone) occupied the other seat. The light switch failed at least three times. The seatbelts fell apart. The window winders snapped off, the mechanism fell apart. The headlight adjusters, again plastic, snapped off several times and at one point I got stopped by a cop who said: "You've got no headlight on the driver's side". I said I bet it's just a dodgy bulb. His reply was "I mean you have NO headlight, it's fallen out!"

Eventually it decided that it wouldn't start, so we rolled it down the bottom of the garden and defied the damn thing. A great van, badly made.

I went back to a 1959 Bedford and never had any troubles other than not winning drag races!

 

I must have been lucky with all maestros I've over the years , I have heard of the problems but not had many first hand .  Had only one door handle break and that was a diecast one and a really heavy handed mate on my turbo.

The rear engine mount can be a pain but the later ones are different. 

The gearbox by the way is a Honda one , if it has a white label uk made , gold Japan i actually have five cars with the same box 

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, Phil Traxson said:

The Imp has coil sprung trailing arms at the back.

Skoda went to trailing arms too, eventually, but not for all their rear engined models....I refer to them as swing axle, and double jointed....on account the trailing arm [two per side, actually] had a pot joint inboard at the transaxle..and a CV joint outboard. Skoda used the same trailing arm as their swing axle version....with an additional angled arm from close to the gearbox nose mounting, on the cross member...bolted to each other by the hub. The Hub location was adjustable [as was the swing arm end as well]...Even the transaxle had a simple conversion, with the changes being the side plates, and the inner ends of the diff.  The swing axle drive shafts used a simple pin and guide block system, a sliding fit into the transaxle innards....the double jointed simply used a splined shaft on the pot joint...pushed in.  It all worked very well, until you tried my trick of raising the suspension ride height..whereupon the innerjoits of both systems ended up halfway pulled out of position. various means were used to push the inboard joints back inboard...on the swing axle type, I found the guide blocks could sheer at the pin holes [they were machined from hardened steel..guide blocks, and pins through drive shafts]...because the guide blocks now rode halfway out of the slots in the transaxle...the repeated on-off-on of power, in 1st gear, which meant max torque....on an observed section led to the slot edges acting like guillotines....the blocks would be sheared in half, and if I didn't catch it in time, the pins through the drive shafts would shear likewise..end of forwards motion. I could change a driveshaft in roughly 30 minutes, in the dark, in the pouring rain, in a field of red Devon mud....on my own..but the outer end of a wing axle, being a rigid and tight fit into the hub, required a hefty puller, and large lump hammers, to part company. Possible, but involved a lot of straining lying on ones back!  I had two go one year, luckily the bits of broken driveshaft pins on one side had jammed in situ...I only carried the one drive shaft..so I changed the other, and still finished the trial [6 o clock at night, early January, Babbacombe...]......to also claim an award....The course closing vehicle parked behind me, with their headlights on..which was nice of them?  

Future pre-trial preparation for swing axle involved a day spent pulling the axles apart, and turning or swapping the guide blocks around so that the rearward faces were clean and un-scored [that was the thrust side, in forward gear]...Once the blocks were scored both sides, they were junk. Monument Garage, a Skoda dealer in Flamborough..use to let me 'sweep' up their workshop floor, for discarded guideblocks....every few months I would gather a plaggy bag full, free & gratis, which was nice. 

I learnt to hate the stink of gear oil...

 

Switching to double jointed rear end meant a lot less aggro pre-trial....once I'd sorted the pot joints pulling out on full suspension drop? [Large thick spacers on the outer ends..and a grind stone or six taken to the lobes of the pot joints...Also, the ends of the trailing arms cut and rewelded [and reinforced with steel plate]....because like all fixed geometry double jointed rear ends..the wheels actually go up & down in an arc,  the springs often pushing the hubs away from the centre line..So the plate stopped the trailing arms from twisting, and  relocating of the hubs as far back as possible, and right under the road springs, meant the hubs stayed closer to the centreline on drop....it meant a lot of toe-out of the rear wheels....but 'handling' wasn't a priority. Tyres wore out  quickly, though. Which wasn't a problem either..I would turn them around regularly anyway....the rims often rotated within the tyres on very low tyre pressures, so needed turning. I could have gone for rim bolts, but didn't bother...they don't always work either.  [I avoided self tappers screwed into the tyre beads as well.]    Nice to know I could throw the car at anything rough, fairly confident it wouldn't break.

 

Now I have a Dellow if I want to do that sort of thing...they don't break, either.  My bones might these days, though?

 

[MJI]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Is yours the TD5 engine? 

Is that engine a 5 pot version of the L series not an engine I've had much to do with 

 

 

Developed from L but electronic unit injectors, and was supposed to be 3 engines to replace L, 300, and BMW Diesel

[MJI]

The Maestro was quite a nice car I liked them.

 

Imps, I had an Imp engine once, got rid of it and dropped in an Avenger lump and gearbox. 1.0 Sunbeam was horrid.

[MJI]

More on Maestro. Years ago in a previous job they had pool cars tended to change. Worst were the Ford's, I hated them, last was escort abysmal. Favourite was astravan. Had maestro for week. Nice inside and steering worked.

 

But company was idiot lead and I found myself unemployed been current job nearly 30 years

Edited October 22, 2020 by MJI

[MJI]

I used a word to suggest stuck up pillocks and it got removed.

[PatB]

10 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Nasty, rock hard old sidecar tyres are much more fun. They only seem to grip if others have left too much rubber on the road surface.

 Best pusher tyre on my first, somewhat lethal, combo was an ancient, square-section Metzeler that had been sitting on the used tyre rack at my local bike breakers for the 8 years I'd been going there. It had aged to the colour and texture of Bakelite and cost me 3 quid. It was brilliant, and had a friction coefficient of about 0.001, allowing me to indulge in all sorts of wheelspinning sideways silliness. 

 

After I'd boiled all the tread off that one, I replaced it with an old stock motocross tyre of about the right size. It was fine after I'd carefully shaved the "Not For Highway Use" legend off the sidewalls. Noisy though, with the howl of the tread blocks drowning out the racket from the rust perforated exhaust collector. Oh yes, and hard acceleration would occasionally peel off one of the tread blocks, fling it past the rather minimal mudguarding, and spang it off the back of my helmet.

 

Ah, the things you do when you're in your 20s and still immortal . 

[MJI]

Tyres, ran all sorts on all sorts of vehicles but favourite bike tyres were Michelin Radials, they were roadified race tyres and sisnce they didn't overheat managed higher mileages than other tyres as well as more grip.

 

Mixing is more dangerous than poor as better to have the start of a slide and recover than the back end slide out and roll the car.

 

Worst tyre was a Japanese plastic bike tyre I had as a spare, I had a front blow out on a bike, also running total loss electrics due to dead alternator. I thought it was my Stratford trip but I had my video camera  then and I would not have left it.

 

Managed to stop bike OK, got a lift to nearest village and my dad came with spare, nearly fell off on first corner at slowish speeds.

 

Was totally scary.

 

Mud tyres, my current car being 4WD like them, I liked Avon Rangers but they stopped making all terrains!

 

Wierd but done moped, small bike, commuter bike, fast bike, banger cars, tuned bangers, luxobarges and now 4WD. 8 bikes 8 cars nearly 42 years.

[Phil Traxson]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

The Maestro was quite a nice car I liked them.

 

Imps, I had an Imp engine once, got rid of it and dropped in an Avenger lump and gearbox. 1.0 Sunbeam was horrid.

Got to say I agree about the 1.0ltr Sunbeam, the wife went from an Imp to a  Sunbeam thinking the slightly bigger engine would be better. Unfortunately it was detuned , different cam I found out on reading the book on the history of the Imp. I could have fixed it to a degree if I had known as I had a spare cam in garage from putting a sports cam on the Bond 875( ish, it was bored a little) that I ran at the time.  The Sunbeam had b------- all weight on the rear driving axle so slid any where and spun the wheels if you looked at the throttle so it was a good job it had no power. I cured all its ills, the wife had some cheap tyres fitted on the front and one wet dark night I had a coming together with the back of a parked, unlit, dark coloured van due to the brakes working but the tyres not. Beyond economic repair.  I was OK, but might not have been if the van had had  a working handbrake. Then she tells me she'd had a couple of "moments" with stopping in the wet since she had the tyres fitted!

Edited October 22, 2020 by Phil Traxson