For those interested in old cars.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, Kickstart said:

The 222 a few years ago

 

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/HarrietSmall.jpg

 

All the best

 

Katy

Can you not afford stainless plate screws? 

[MrWolf]

The Vitesse was nose heavy already by virtue of the six cylinder engine, later ones got the axle improvements that were made to the GT6 that reversed the camber of the rear wheels. That was much better and with Triumph cars being basically Meccano, you can swap bits over easily. When I was 18, I got quite adept at the driving round in a 25 foot circle with one rear wheel off the ground. 

Not a trick I am going to teach 'er indoors!

[boxbrownie]

And that’s the Sports car of the range 

 

There was a very popular kit you could fit to lower the transverse spring to diff gap which improved things a lot.

[MrWolf]

Swapping parts from the GT6 allowed the wheels to be pulled in at the top, resetting the geometry. That photo looks like it was taken when someone panic braked on a bend!

 

Our number plates are held on by brass cheese head screws. They have corroded to a nice furry green condition.

I do like a Maserati, especially the earlier ones, though even they look odd to me in four door form. A friend brought me his 1959 3500GT a few years ago for some repairs. It had had some structural welding carried out at great expense by a "specialist".  I suspect that he was a specialist in bodging old Ford's and Toyota's through one last bent MOT.

I insisted on a test drive as part payment, telling him that if I crashed it I would be going back abroad two weeks earlier than planned...

[boxbrownie]

Oh I like furry green screw heads.....classy 

 

I think that picture is just the typical rear wheel tuck under once it got too far to handle, anyhoo all old cars had some handling errr flair! 

[PhilJ W]

Back in the 70's I knew someone who fitted a Ford Pop body to a Vitesse chassis (only half an inch difference in the wheelbase). It made the perfect sleeper but as it used  the Vitesse chassis it was registered as such not as a Ford Pop. This resulted in his being stopped a few times by the police to check the car details.

[MrWolf]

Handling flair? That's part of the fun. You don't just sit there like a cabbage expecting the tech to drive it for you. When newer cars lose it, it's without warning I found. I remember driving a good number of high end fwd hatchbacks on which the rear end would suddenly hop off line on a bend. Torque steer, lack of traction despite the engine weight over the wheels, uselessness in snow or ice are just a few pet hates! 

Best normal saloon car I have ever driven in deep snow was an E series Vauxhall Velox on crossplies. The only thing that stopped that was a roadblock of hatchbacks on skateboard wheels.

Edited October 21, 2020 by MrWolf

[PhilJ W]

7 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

That's part of the fun. You don't just sit there like a cabbage expecting the tech to drive it for you. When newer cars lose it, it's without warning I found. I remember driving a good number of high end fwd hatchbacks on which the rear end would suddenly hop off line on a bend. Torque steer, lack of traction despite the engine weight over the wheels, uselessness in snow or ice are just a few pet hates! 

Its the same with crossply vs. radial tyres. If crossplies loose grip they do it gradually but if radials the loss of grip is instant (though they retain grip for longer).

Edited October 21, 2020 by PhilJ W

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Can you not afford stainless plate screws? 

Long ago replaced!

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Sidecar Racer]

49 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 but if radials the loss of grip is instant (though they retain grip for longer).

 

That varied from different makes of tyre , when I was flinging a Mini about as

a spirited youth I found that the Pirelli Cinturato gave a nice controllable breakaway

that allowed you to set up a nice drift into a fast corner , the Michelin XAS on  the other

hand did'nt , it might grip a bit longer but when it let go you it was as you say ' instant ' .

 

 

[Rugd1022]

14 hours ago, johnlambert said:

 

The impression was gleaned at one of the Earl's Court motor shows in the early 1990s (I'd have been 16 or 17 at the time), from memory the Maserati stand at the time had a Manual 430 4v (owner of the aforementioned heavy clutch), 222SR automatic and a Shamal (the clutch of which was noticeably lighter).  There may have been a Spider on the stand too, but I can't remember.

 

I've had a passenger ride in a Biturbo-based Ghibli; I certainly like the combination of sober external appearance and flamboyant interior.  Too many cars seem to have eye-catching styling for the benefit of the rest of the world and boring interiors.

 

Maserati have always been good at interiors, some of the earlier cars are more restrained but have a certain elegance about them. The late '70s QPIII interior was very swish, almost too swish in a way, a style which spilled over into the Biturbos to some extent.... A certain Mr.Pavarotti owned one (he also had a Kyalami)....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alastairq]

Swing axles?

 

Triumph weren't the only make who employed these.

VW in the beetle?

Tatra?

Porsche in their earlier cars?

Skoda with the 1000MB, S100, Estelle?

 

[Which make got slated in the popular press of the time for their quirky swing axle handling? More a case of, the average driving licence holder simply didn't bother with such trivia as having to demonstrate certain driving skills when cornering? I mean, wasn't there responsibility to avoid the ditches, was it? Or, so the press would have us believe?For the lack of certain driving skills,blame BMC and their 1100? Which became the darling of the driving schools? Mainly because if lifting off in a turn, they responded in a safer manner]

Skoda went on to develop [quite easily, as it seemed] a double jointed rear end.....their rally success giving the lie to the rubbish press they got?

 

VW beetle enthusiasts [from the USA, where most of the tuning gear for these emanated]....got a camber compensator, which tried to overcome the more extreme positive camber, by limiting it severely...EMPI, anyone? This came out I think, possibly pre-dating the Herald?

 

Incidentally, regarding the VW Beetle? US  drag merchants discovered that if drag racing a beetle.....the shape of the wheel arches/wings was such, that just over 90-odd mph....they achieved lift...as in, aircraft wing-type lift....the car would literally start to fly.  The answer was to drill/riddle the rearward  slopes of each wing/wheelarch with holes, thus destroying the pressure differentials...

 

 

[alastairq]

double post, quirky forum software again.

Edited October 21, 2020 by alastairq

[boxbrownie]

It’s not really the swing axles that were the issue it was the transverse leaf spring used to tie the top links together, made for really quite bad geometry......there are a few types of rear swing axle design, most work really well.

[boxbrownie]

36 minutes ago, Sidecar Racer said:

 

That varied from different makes of tyre , when I was flinging a Mini about as

a spirited youth I found that the Pirelli Cinturato gave a nice controllable breakaway

that allowed you to set up a nice drift into a fast corner , the Michelin XAS on  the other

hand did'nt , it might grip a bit longer but when it let go you it was as you say ' instant ' .

 

 

When we raced the single seater it was the Dunlop Cavalino (long time ago, the name might have been similar) crossply that worked so well on the track, back then you wouldn’t touch a radial for racing!

[russ p]

19 hours ago, MJI said:

The O lead to M T Prima L G TD5

 

 

I put an experimental 16v  O series in a maestro EFi  i later found out it was for a stillborn range of cars based on the TR7 as the original waterpump arrangement wasn't suitable for FWD as it fouled the driveshafts .

Unfortunately it didn't last very long as I ran it with original EFi ECUs and it detonated ,, no remapping back then 

All the engines mentioned above are great engines shame emissions spelt the end for the T series turbo that would have been great in the ZR as several people have converted them 

[johnlambert]

Swing axles were once very popular (with manufacturers, if not drivers).  Lots of cheap, rear-engined cars had swing axles.  Think about the small Fiats (500, 600, 850), Simca, Renault and probably more.  And don't forget the Hillman Imp with swing axles at both ends.

 

Mercedes-Benz used swing axles from about the 1930s on its passenger cars; I think Mercedes made the transition straight from leaf springs and solid axles at both ends to independend suspension at both ends.

 

Mercedes had an unusual layout on the last cars to carry swing axles (from 1954); rather than fixing the differential to the structure of the car and having pivoting half-shafts  on both sides the differential was in unit with one of the half shafts pivoted.  It somewhat tamed the behaviour of swing axles by reducing the opportunity for camber changes. 

 

Official story from Daimler Benz here.

 

 With suspension, as far as I can tell, it doesn't necessarily matter so much what method you use; as the subtleties of geometry and springing can cause problems with just about any set-up.

[MrWolf]

Agreed, despite the beautifully engineered rear suspension set up I managed a full 360 on a roundabout in a 1964 22SE Mercedes, due to rain, diesel spills and er, spirited driving. The car sorted itself out several minutes before I did. 

[Rugd1022]

Probably beyond any of our budgets on here, but this rare RHD Lamborghini Urraco is up for grabs and what a lovely thing it is too....

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1276058

 

Quite a well known car, it's featured in Arnstein Landsem's excellent 'Book Of The Urraco', published by Veloce.

[PatB]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Great if you NEVER have to.

 

The Vitesse was a nice little car with useful power but no matter how good a driver you were backing off through a fast corner would often call for either clean trousers or a call to the local recovery garage. 

 

But if you got through the bend you really did think you could drive 
 

I will admit that both my swing axle cars, the Spit' and the VW Beetle I later owned, were both set up to resemble dogs with worms. The Spitfire's rear spring was elderly and sagged most of the way to the bump stops. The Beetle had had its rear torsion bars twiddled by a previous owner. Neither looked great, but they did behave themselves at the rear unless really provoked. 

[MrWolf]

2 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Probably beyond any of our budgets on here, but this rare RHD Lamborghini Urraco is up for grabs and what a lovely thing it is too....

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1276058

 

Quite a well known car, it's featured in Arnstein Landsem's excellent 'Book Of The Urraco', published by Veloce.

 

Very nice indeed, but I can't help but think what other toys I can get for 75 grand.

[alastairq]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

there are a few types of rear swing axle design, most work really well.

 Or, appeared to?

The answer [as seen on Simca Rallyes?...another make I forgot to mention..or was it Renault R8? Gordini?].....was to lower the springs to create a natural negative camber stance.

Then, keep the power down from just before every apex. [And apply good observational techniques first.....or, slow down?]

Negative camber to that degree  made a lot of folk uncomfortable.....but it works [on tarmac]...

 

Of course, possibly the most famous swing axle cars [so famous, I forgot about them?]....were the pre-wawer Auto Union GP cars?  

[Now, they could get quite a lot of positive camber in bends....as a few photos attest?]

Edited October 21, 2020 by alastairq

[alastairq]

To add to the swing axle theme.....many of the earlier Skoda rally cars were swing axle.....yet, to get better ground clearance, the rear [coil] springs could have up to 40 mm thick spacers inserted above them.

Which resulted in a good deal of positive camber, when sat!

 

I once trialled [Classic reliability trials ] a Skoda Estelle with a swing rear axle.....it ended up with a 1300 cc [5 port] engine....on which a variety of carbs were tried /used...including a 40 DCOE on a swan neck manifold...

It's rear end was hiked 40 mm..[for ground clearance...every centimetre of ground clearance was precious when trialling]...The front raised accordingly..almost [there were physical limits]...With something like a 65% rearwards weight bias.....I knew it wasn't  going to have race car handling.

But, it never put me in a ditch backwards, ever. Sometimes forwards....but it always managed to climb out as well...

I think the secret there was, by raising the back end 40mm, that automatically increases the effective spring rate...made the springs feel stiffer? Raising the ride heght also increases the effective downforce through the [driven] wheels.

Dunno what the physics of it all is..but it worked.....I still have a number of cups & trophies acquired with the thing.

Edited October 21, 2020 by alastairq

[MJI]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I put an experimental 16v  O series in a maestro EFi  i later found out it was for a stillborn range of cars based on the TR7 as the original waterpump arrangement wasn't suitable for FWD as it fouled the driveshafts .

Unfortunately it didn't last very long as I ran it with original EFi ECUs and it detonated ,, no remapping back then 

All the engines mentioned above are great engines shame emissions spelt the end for the T series turbo that would have been great in the ZR as several people have converted them 

 

How similar was this to the M?

 

The ones which would have been good were the G (sold to India) and the not built TD4 & TD6.

 

The L got replaced with a BMW lump, could have been a G (Rover) or a TD4 (LR), what a missed opportunity.

[Sidecar Racer]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

When we raced the single seater it was the Dunlop Cavalino (long time ago, the name might have been similar) crossply that worked so well on the track, back then you wouldn’t touch a radial for racing!

 

 

My exploits were confined to either small club road rallying or sprint events , so

all competition was with a road car rather than a race car .

 

Not until I  got involved with the sidecar hillclimbs did I use race tyres .

 

 Even this proved to be fun , for the first couple of years I was using Dunlop

tyres , at one of the hills we used the start went immediately into a rising 180

degree corner , the best was round was to get the back wheel spinning and drift

the bike through the corner , for the third season I had  reworked the bike with

new wheels and gone to Avon race tyres , so as the above corner is at  the first

meeting of the year I thought I had things under control . Not quite . The Avon

tyre did not spin up , it just gripped , very well in fact , so much so that  instead

of getting nicely round the corner we practically drove into the side of cliff

that formed the outside of the bend .

 

Sorry for the ramble , better get back to cars now .