For those interested in old cars.

[APOLLO]

4 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Nope, just correcting some misconceptions.......old cars rule, but they ain’t the new messiah.

 

Love is blind they say.......

 

No - They are the OLD messiah !!!!

 

Blood guts and torn ligaments - only when changing a wheel !!

 

Brit15

[runs as required]

Ive often wondered about  "then and now" when I drive south from our northern fastnesses. 

The M6 always gets serious these days down past Lancaster to near Knutsford.

in 1962 I could drive my DS 19 (at an indicated 100 mph) with ultra light steering because the front end had all but lifted clean off the road . I'd have to aim in the centre reservation between the uprights of the over bridges, shut my eyes and pray.

But you could always leave the motorway at the service stations because no one shut the gates.

In those days road lane capacity was calculated at 1500 per hour. What is the optimum capacity these days on 'Smart' motorways?

dh 

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, PatB said:

As for Morris Minors and MGBs, personally I'd rather have a Triumph Herald or a Triumph GT6 (or 6-potted Spitfire) for equivalent roles, but neither has the sheer volume of commercial backup of the BMC products. It cannot be denied that the Minor and the B are probably two of the easiest classics to buy and own and, looking at the way the prices of things like Minis and Escorts have gone in recent years, represent something of a bargain. 

Considering you can still buy a usable Minor for less than £2K, but a usable Mk1 Escort - probably an equivalent family car, just a decade newer - might now cost £5K, suggests Minors aren't over-rated.  They are still, by classic car standards, cheap.  I share a lack of enthusiasm for MGBs and am staggered what people will pay for them, but it's not my money.  At least these people take an interest in driving, rather than avoid thinking about it if at all possible (especially while doing it).

[BernardTPM]

I suspect most surviving Mk.I Escorts are not your basic 1 litre deluxe models, but Mexicos, Twin Cams and RS models. Then again, the sheer rarity of a basic Mk.I Escort might add to the price.

Edited September 2, 2019 by BernardTPM

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, PatB said:

Whilst not exactly common in Oz, there are still more than 3 Nissan Prairies on the road over here. RHD too, so if you really want one, look in this direction. Can't hell with a Matra Rancho though. I remember being dead impressed when I first saw one in 1978, but was less so when I discovered it to be a Simca in a party dress. 

 

As for Morris Minors and MGBs, personally I'd rather have a Triumph Herald or a Triumph GT6 (or 6-potted Spitfire) for equivalent roles, but neither has the sheer volume of commercial backup of the BMC products. It cannot be denied that the Minor and the B are probably two of the easiest classics to buy and own and, looking at the way the prices of things like Minis and Escorts have gone in recent years, represent something of a bargain. 

I should imagine that both cars would be more common in Australia. Here in the UK during the winter many roads are spread with salt and both vehicles suffered corrosion as a result especially the Rancho. I used to have a Prairie, a very good car but on its last test I was informed that though it passed corrosion was setting in to the inner front wings. In fact the car was written off a few months later when I was rear ended by a truck and the car rolled two or three times ending up on its roof. Despite that I walked away from the wreck with just a cut finger (on the broken glass). Despite the accident the doors still opened and shut correctly including the sliding doors and tailgate. I can't speak for the Rancho but they became notorious for rust largely due to it being invisible underneath the fibreglass outer skin.

[Jol Wilkinson]

27 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Considering you can still buy a usable Minor for less than £2K, but a usable Mk1 Escort - probably an equivalent family car, just a decade newer - might now cost £5K, suggests Minors aren't over-rated.  They are still, by classic car standards, cheap.  I share a lack of enthusiasm for MGBs and am staggered what people will pay for them, but it's not my money.  At least these people take an interest in driving, rather than avoid thinking about it if at all possible (especially while doing it).

MGB's are still reasonably priced compared to many other convertibles of the period. E types and Lotus Elans seem to have become collectable assets (a friends S4 Elan has almost doubled in price in four years). AH 3000's command serious money, followed by TRs and 60's Sunbeam Alpines, but Spitfires, Midgets and MGBs are down the bottom of the price list. MGC's and V8s are the Abingdon products that command rather more serious money now but are still fairly cheap.

[polybear]

10 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Personally, I dream of owning a Matra Rancho, but THAT is a rare car.

 

 

Ah yes... better known as an Airfix Range Rover.....

[Oldddudders]

This is becoming a nasty thread. Grow up, some of you!

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

Personally, I dream of owning a Matra Rancho, but THAT is a rare car.

 

 

I think that the Rancho was a truly brilliant concept. It was the forerunner of so many of the SUVs that fill our roads today. And it was based on the running gear of a Simca which was a stunning performer for its time. Perhaps we should not give Matra too much credit. It was a Range Rover Lite.

 

So, everything to like and in the 1970s it was my wishlist transport, perhaps an odd choice for a teenager but look what a lot of model railway one could have got in the back.

 

In 1981, result! I got a job at a firm where the pool car runabout was a Rancho and I got to use it a lot on my monthly trips to Massey Ferguson at Beauvais. A total pig of a car! They had not managed at all to sort out the chassis.

 

They were reasonably numerous in France at the time. But I can't remember the last time that I saw one.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell
Add

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

 

Using almost any vehicle over 40 years old as a daily driver is a fool hardy and stupid thing to do, they were built with absolutely no crash worthiness designed in (except a few Volvos) and in anything more than a parking impact the interior turns into a box full of “hammers and exacto blades” as our safety engineers used to say......take classics out for special occasions and drive them with the greatest respect.

 

If you get in an accident, yes. S has been driving hers, usually just three miles on a road where few travel at more than 40mph, for thirty years or more. She's not had an accident in that time so crashworthiness has not been an issue. If one were that risk-averse, one would not go out on the roads (busy here on Sundays) to attend a car event; the journey to Tesco is more worthwhile in terms of risk/reward.

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Unfortunately the bloke coming the other way too fast around that bend doesn’t drive the same way as you do!

And he will be the one to suffer the consequences of that.

 

Old Land Rover vs small "hot" hatch driven by boy racer. I know which I would rather be a passenger in. As they say in boxing, a good big'un will always beat a good littl'un.

[Northmoor]

19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

And he will be the one to suffer the consequences of that.

 

Old Land Rover vs small "hot" hatch driven by boy racer. I know which I would rather be a passenger in. As they say in boxing, a good big'un will always beat a good littl'un.

Modern cars are designed to deform so that the driver and passengers don't have to.  It's no good your car being repairable after an accident if you aren't.

[APOLLO]

Old(er)  cars I've always fancied, looked at, but never bought.

 

Jags - dad had a Mk7 split windscreen back in the early 60's - Colour was sable over sand - lovely car, many fading memories. ONE day I'll have a jag, though not too old - silly money those now. Def NOT an X type (sill rot). Perhaps an XJ 6 cyl petrol. (Not the V8 (Nikasil) or earlier X300 (most are now rot boxes). I keep looking on Autotrader. (just looking mind !!).

 

MGB GT - Yes looked at several a few years ago. Most were bodged, I'm to old for those now !!

 

Range Rover - well perhaps not now. I drove my brother in law's Discovery V8 petrol across Bangkok a few months ago - just the job around the mad bu88ers over there - a tank full of petrol to cross a city !!!! I'll give those a miss.

 

Ford Capris  - Yes I would like one again - but very silly money now (as are all old Fords) - don't know why - they're just biscuit tins on wheels !!

 

Leyland Princess - (again) - VERY few left - try to find a good un. (I DON'T want another Marina even though mine wasn't too bad back then). 

 

Volvo 240 (etc) - The TANK !!  Looked at a few, very good cars they were too. Can't remember looking at a bad 'un.

 

Vauxhall Omega - a nice big car, not many around nowadays. Seem to have all disappeared very rapidly.

 

Jensen Interceptor. Can't afford one - just used to look at them 

 

Triumph Stag - To me a beaut - again too old now.

 

Triumph 2000 PI - NEARLY bought one off a workmate. A flying machine. I decided too keep my Rover.

 

Silly money (to me) are classic cars now. My Rover, bought in 1982 for £800 or so is now insured for £10,000 - actual value difficult to say - worth what somebody is willing to pay - perhaps £7000  - These cars in top nick are very silly money also these days. Just look at THIS

 

https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/rover-3-5-coupe-p5b

 

My next "classic" will be a modern classic - and will be my daily runner so a couple of grand or so tops.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skipepsi]

6 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

So which one would you rather be in if you hit a solid wall at 30mph?

Given the damage that was done to my Triumph Mayflower when I hit Armco sideways at more than 30 mph ( cracked varnish) and the fact that it is possible to dent the Aygo with your fist .....

[gr.king]

It is quite clear to me that the zealots in the Health and Safety Gestapo want to condemn and outlaw any vehicle, other item or situation that carries the slightest risk of any kind, and in the process create a world in which children are raised without developing any ability themselves to recognise, assess and avoid risk. They want everything to be suitable for careless idiots and those with no normal behavioural control. This dogmatic, Nanny-State approach deliberately makes no allowance for the many who use inherently risky items or processes SAFELY because they employ skill, experience and care.

 

I shall carry on driving a 40+ year old car on a regular basis, whether or not I am annoying certain others. In fact I shall enjoy the thought that I am annoying some of them. In nearly 40 years of driving I have failed to hit any pedestrians or have any impacts with other vehicles or solid objects that would have required absorption by crumple zones, so I suspect I'm doing something adequately well. I think I am not the only one on here who would respond robustly to some interfering busy-body trying to tell me what risks I may, or more particularly may not take.

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, gr.king said:

It is quite clear to me that the zealots in the Health and Safety Gestapo want to condemn and outlaw any vehicle

 

Beyond your rant, there are a bigger group of people who want classics off the road - other motorists.

 

How many times do you read the discussion on increasing motorway speed limits where the argument is that cars have become more sophisticated with better brakes? The natural extension of this is that all cars over a certain age should be banned from the road for the good of other motorists who want need to get around a tiny bit faster. I've even read this argument on a classic car forum, where the writer presumably couldn't spot the connection and therefore (IMHO) should have his license taken away for stupidity.

[APOLLO]

Lets also bring in euthanasia - old folk are to slow and costly - limit them to 55 (years old)  then off to the dome (Film - Logan's Run) !!!!

 

What a wonderful world we are becoming. Just watch this - China 2019 - Instant fines for minor offences (walking) by facial recognition and your linked mobile phone bank account , social points system also. 

 

 

Ahh well

 

 

 

Brit15

[gr.king]

Can you imagine the apoplexy in the health and safety mob at the prospect of increased speed limits????

 

Another potential consequence of imposed 100% health and safety everywhere is hugely increased cost of everything, and more harm to the environment thanks to the requirement to re-manufacture or modify every existing item to conform to Nanny's standards......

[chriswright03]

Just to try to bring this topic back to actual old cars or in this case van.  Maybe stop the petty squabbling for a while at least.  Oh and yes it is still nice and sunny here in the TRNC.

[boxbrownie]

50 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

 

I shall carry on driving a 40+ year old car on a regular basis, whether or not I am annoying certain others. In fact I shall enjoy the thought that I am annoying some of them. In nearly 40 years of driving I have failed to hit any pedestrians or have any impacts with other vehicles or solid objects that would have required absorption by crumple zones, so I suspect I'm doing something adequately well. I think I am not the only one on here who would respond robustly to some interfering busy-body trying to tell me what risks I may, or more particularly may not take.

Why on earth would you think you are annoying anybody by driving your classic/old car on the road?

 

Some people seem have a very odd outlook, I am sure the vast majority of even the “normal” public enjoy seeing a well kept classic drive by......

 

Now....towing a tin tent....that’s another matter 

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

MGB's are still reasonably priced compared to many other convertibles of the period. E types and Lotus Elans seem to have become collectable assets (a friends S4 Elan has almost doubled in price in four years). AH 3000's command serious money, followed by TRs and 60's Sunbeam Alpines, but Spitfires, Midgets and MGBs are down the bottom of the price list. MGC's and V8s are the Abingdon products that command rather more serious money now but are still fairly cheap.

Back in the late 70’s we bought a Sprint DHC from Bell & Colvill (a Lotus main dealer back then) not new of course as we were newly married and on a tight budget but the Sprint was being sold at a very cheap price as it was a wreck, running but a wreck.....it was just 5 years old! The front chassis towers had corroded to such an extent you could see the top mount moving when leaning on each front wing. Someone had fiddled with the wiring and the wipers would not turn off, the turn indicators flashed at opposite corners of the car .......anyhoo, we bought it and I spent the next few months completely stripping it down, renewing the chassis, rewiring completely with my own designed loom, retrimming and finally an original colour repaint, we loved that car but as we were so tight on budget and could not really afford two cars back then something had to go, it was either the Lotus or the Citroen CX Pallas C-Matic......and as we loved our camping holidays in France, guess which one it was that went?  

 

Just wish I had never let it go, every time I see the prices of mint DHC Sprints I cry......let alone the three Cooper S Minis we had, the Dolly Sprint, the BMW 2002tii, and the list went on and on.......hindsight is a glorious thing, and working at the biggest automotive research and engineering centre in the UK helped as well, they really didn’t know how much effort they put into rebuilding half of my collection 

Edited September 3, 2019 by boxbrownie

[PhilJ W]

Older cars are not neccessarily unsafe in an accident, see my post about my Nissan Prairie above. It doesn't matter what age of car you are driving if a heavy truck rams you into the back of another heavy truck in front of you. The one thing that is likely to prevent classic cars from using the roads would be a ban on all but electric vehicles but few of us will still be around when that happens.

[alastairq]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

How many times do you read the discussion on increasing motorway speed limits where the argument is that cars have become more sophisticated with better brakes?

 

What is often forgotten in this argument is..whilst cars have become more capable, drivers haven't.

Human beings haven't advanced their performances or abilities like cars have. 

 

Race-track speeds are fine on the rigidly controlled environment of race tracks......motorways are not rigidly controlled environments. There is, as yet, no licence that qualifies a drive to drive at high speeds....[or way of proving or enforcing it].

Unlike on a race track, the 'traffic' is generally unregulated..or, at least, at a very basic level [Highway Code]....

Speed on a motorway doesn't really have anything to do with a vehicle's abilities.....but has much to do with driver abilities. By that, I mean, every drivers' abilities....not just the ones who like to drive fast.

 

[Wolseley]

Here are a couple of old cars, spotted not too long ago (not really recent though - they were last year, but I haven't posted them before):

 

First, a Lincoln Continental encountered on a walk down William Street, Bathurst.

 

 

And a Datsun 240(or 260?)Z at the underground carpark at our local shops.

 

[runs as required]

 

Just trying to get my head around this Smart Motorway stuff, I found this about the M25 Monitoring of the Smart Motorway between J23-27 (SMALR Third Year Report)

This is 4 lanes in each direction and includes the tunnel under Epping High Rd'

I'd go straight to p5 Executive Summary   which also gives Conclusions.

The Smart Motorway between  J23 -27 has seen an increase in pm peak hour flow in either direction of approaching 17% (Friday being the peak)

Quote

2.4. Summary

The SMALR section experienced traffic growth of 16% between the Before and Yr3 After periods, which is far higher than regional motorway growth over the same period. The largest growth has been at weekends, up to 23%, while other days have seen increases between 6% and 19%.

 

I thought it strange that DfT obtained journey time data from Tom Tom:

Quote

 

3.5. Summary

Overall clockwise journey times are effectively unchanged since the Before period (increase of 3 seconds, 0.4%) in Yr3 After compared to Before. In the anticlockwise direction journey times have improved by 15 seconds (1.4%).

Journey time reliability clockwise remains similar between the Before and Yr3 After periods. However, there are some delayed journeys in weekday PM peaks. Anticlockwise there is a good improvement on the Monday to Thursday AM peak, while times of day remain similar to before the scheme.

These results show that increases in capacity have been achieved, moving more goods, people and services, while maintaining journey times at pre-scheme levels and slightly improving reliability.

 

Quote

 

5.3. Safety

Against a background of increasing flows, the scheme has met its safety objective :

no increase in number or rate of FWIs (FWI equals (number of fatalities) + 0.1 x (number of serious) + 0.01 x (number of slight casualties*)

based on the data in the analysis, no user group has been adversely affected.
There has been no change in collision rate after taking account the national background trend of

improvement.

Severity index, FWI and KSI (Killed and seriously injured) rates have improved, although these changes are not directly attributable to the scheme, as they could have occurred as a result of natural variation.

Monitoring of Red X (Lane closure) compliance revealed that across all events analysed, an average of 94% of vehicles complied with Red Xs in the Yr3 After period.

---

*as I understand it FWI is the index by which DfT decides a project is worth funding or not)

"There you have it"

Best summed up by try to avoid driving your Ford Classic around the M25 on a weekend evening.

But I still wasn't able to answer my own question about capacity as expressed in flow per lane - which I was last involved in during the early 1960s, when weighing up cost/benefits of "park and ride" PTE rail !

dh