GWR signal box diagrams

[Zoe]

Hi, the SRS have qute comprehensive coverage of the former GWR network as does George Pryer but one area that seems to be missing is the 1930s GWR colour light scheme from Paddington to Southall.  The SRS diagrams do cover some of these boxes but west of Old Oak Common most of these are of the 1950s MAS era (except Longfield Avenue and Hanwell which closed as part of the 1950s MAS scheme).  George Pryer doesn't cover as far as London.  Do any diagrams of these boxes exist or is it the case that no record was made?

[The Stationmaster]

The only one I've got (Southall area) is the 1950s version although I suspect that in that vicinity the signal positions didn't change all that much.

 

A 'record' would have been made in that office copies of the diagrams existed as well as locking charts etc - the question is what happened to them? and the answer is that unless an individual 'saved' any of them they would have gone in the salvage when the signals were updated to multiple aspect.  The only way the SRS get their information is where the old stuff has survived and where there are gaps in their information it indicates that either nothing survived or that it hasn't come to light because it is in private hands (e.g. I have information for one 'box which is not shown on the SRS discs).

[RailWest]

It is always possible - I suppose - that the SRS has the info somewhere, but has simply not got it drawn up in a suitable form for presentation. It might be worth sending them an enquiry.

[Zoe]

While I have not been able to find the diagrams for the boxes in question, the SRS have pubished the signalling notices for the 1950s MAS scheme and these list the signals that were taken out of use at the time so I have been trying to roughly work out the signalling for the GWR colour light period from this.  The first stage was Hayes to Hanwell and the signalling notice includes a diagram showing the new signalling.  Pior to this scheme Southall West Junction had Up Home and Starting signals and both the main and relief.  It seems the home signals would likely have been in roughly the same location as WJ2/WJ8 (and indeed the signalling notice says that WJ2 uses the existing bracket).  I note there is a crossover from the No 1 Up Goods line to the Up Relief so would the Up Relief Starting signal have most likely have been in advance of this crossover or is it possible that the Up No 1 Goods to Up Relief starting semaphore would have been controlled by the block to Southall West Station?  There also doesn't seem to be a distant for Southall West Station under this signal.

[The Stationmaster]

While I have not been able to find the diagrams for the boxes in question, the SRS have pubished the signalling notices for the 1950s MAS scheme and these list the signals that were taken out of use at the time so I have been trying to roughly work out the signalling for the GWR colour light period from this.  The first stage was Hayes to Hanwell and the signalling notice includes a diagram showing the new signalling.  Pior to this scheme Southall West Junction had Up Home and Starting signals and both the main and relief.  It seems the home signals would likely have been in roughly the same location as WJ2/WJ8 (and indeed the signalling notice says that WJ2 uses the existing bracket).  I note there is a crossover from the No 1 Up Goods line to the Up Relief so would the Up Relief Starting signal have most likely have been in advance of this crossover or is it possible that the Up No 1 Goods to Up Relief starting semaphore would have been controlled by the block to Southall West Station?  There also doesn't seem to be a distant for Southall West Station under this signal.

Firstly it would be unusual by that date for the Goods Line signals to have distants - even if reading out to the Relief.  And uyes, it was probably rekeased by teh block although it might have been track locked?

 

As far as a Starting Signal on the Up Relief (and Up Main) is concerned I would think it unlikely that there would have been signals in advance of the Homes when the original colour lights were installed as the section was relatively short (946 yards from 'box to 'box) and on the Main Line you could easily see West Station's Up Homes from West Junction's Homes.

[Zoe]

Firstly it would be unusual by that date for the Goods Line signals to have distants - even if reading out to the Relief.  And uyes, it was probably rekeased by teh block although it might have been track locked?

 

As far as a Starting Signal on the Up Relief (and Up Main) is concerned I would think it unlikely that there would have been signals in advance of the Homes when the original colour lights were installed as the section was relatively short (946 yards from 'box to 'box) and on the Main Line you could easily see West Station's Up Homes from West Junction's Homes.

So if the signal leaving the goods line is also the last signal controlled by that signal box, the driver would always have to assume the home signal for the next box to be at danger?

 

As for the Up Main and Relief Starting signals, the signalling notice lists the following Southall West Junction signals on the Up Line as getting taken out of use in 1953 (these would have been colour lights since the 1930s):

 

Up Main Distant

Up Main Home

Up Main Starting

Up Relief Distant

Up Relief Homes

Up Relief Starting

 

 

From that it would seem that the signals did exist but this would make the section to Southall West Station very short so I wasn't sure if the Up Relief Starting would have been in rear or advance of the crossover.  If it was in rear then there would be no need to control the goods to relief signal by the block but then there would be less distance between the home and starting signals.

[The Stationmaster]

So if the signal leaving the goods line is also the last signal controlled by that signal box, the driver would always have to assume the home signal for the next box to be at danger?

 

As for the Up Main and Relief Starting signals, the signalling notice lists the following Southall West Junction signals on the Up Line as getting taken out of use in 1953 (these would have been colour lights since the 1930s):

 

Up Main Distant

Up Main Home

Up Main Starting

Up Relief Distant

Up Relief Homes

Up Relief Starting

 

 

From that it would seem that the signals did exist but this would make the section to Southall West Station very short so I wasn't sure if the Up Relief Starting would have been in rear or advance of the crossover.  If it was in rear then there would be no need to control the goods to relief signal by the block but then there would be less distance between the home and starting signals.

If it was in advance of the crossover it would have been only a few hundred yards from West Station's Up Home - but it is interesting that they survived when converted to (original) colour lights as the section was short.

 

When a semaphore stop is signal is cleared it indicates only that the line is clear as far as the next stop signal in advance - so yes, that is how a Driver should understand it.

[Zoe]

 If it was in rear then there would be no need to control the goods to relief signal by the block but then there would be less distance between the home and starting signals.

I mistyped the above post.  It should read "If it was in advance there would be no need to control the goods to relief singal by the block but if it was in rear then there would be less distance between the home and starting signals."  However TheStationmaster's point still applies since the section would be very short from this signal to West Junction's signal if in advance.

 

 

If it was in advance of the crossover it would have been only a few hundred yards from West Station's Up Home - but it is interesting that they survived when converted to (original) colour lights as the section was short.

 

When a semaphore stop is signal is cleared it indicates only that the line is clear as far as the next stop signal in advance - so yes, that is how a Driver should understand it.

 

Wouldn't it have to be held at danger until the train is almost at the signal before it can be cleared so there would be no the risk of the driver seeing a signal already cleared and assuming the line was clear up to and including the clearing point of the box in advance.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

 

Wouldn't it have to be held at danger until the train is almost at the signal before it can be cleared so there would be no the risk of the driver seeing a signal already cleared and assuming the line was clear up to and including the clearing point of the box in advance.

Yes.  But in any case the train would be moving very slowly as the speed through the crossover would be no more than 15mph and quite likely 10mph.