Branchline goods track layout - is this workable?

[SwissRailPassion]

Hi,

I have just been given the chance to help expand a layout which will be southern based (ex SR or GWR) in the late 50s. At the moment we are planning the layout of the yard. It is a single track branch intermediate station where trains also terminate. The length is 9 feet and the platforms accommodate 4 coaches etc.

 

I'm aware many goods connections are trailing, but space is tight and the station and shed must be at the left hand side.

 

Any ideas as the functionality of this set up are welcome. Should the bay platform exist as on the plan or should the shed be placed on the bay line?

 

All full trains (vans) arrive from the up direction. I had wanted to operate the little yard from a hand held controller, hence the headshunt but is this workable? Should I include a coal siding?

 

Finally, how many vans would be on the typical goods in 1958?

 

Plan below

All comments welcome

[Fat Controller]

No idea how prototypical it is, though a troll through the 'Historical Survey of Great Western Stations' should give some similar examples. I'd be incline to have the goods shed where the bay is, and use the one you show with the shed as the coal merchants' sidings. It would be a rare country station that didn't have a coal siding.

Van trains would vary with the season; normally, you'd only have a handful of vans, except during autumn (block trains of animal feed), and spring (basic slag and fertiliser for top-dressing pasture). What other traffic are you thinking of having?

[SwissRailPassion]

Thanks for the swift reply. I'll take a look at the GWR site you mentioned. As space is limited I think moving the goods shed is a very good idea - the ratio model kit looks just the job.  

Traffic to go will be farm produce with general goods inward. Milk perhaps?

[The Stationmaster]

Fairly good layout and quite workable but the bay line - assuming it is 'passenger' would need to be trap point protected from the two yard sidings.

 

Normally a yard laid out in that way would be shunted by an Up train - that puts the engine on the 'open' end whereas the engine of a Down train would have to run round before being able to shunt the yard.  And usually serving a small yard like that would involve relatively little shunting although various seasonal patterns could mean the yard getting very busy.

 

Traffic depends very much on the nature of the locality and the nature of local agriculture - for instance predominantly dairy would mean milk traffic outwards (which would be passenger rated, not goods), soft fruit or similar would be very seasonal but could involve very busy times such as occurred in the Vale of Evesham, while for many other crops such as grain railway use had dropped away considerably by the 1950s.  Inwards traffic would be general goods plus occasional 'specials' such as some agricultural machinery plus, of course, household coal.

[SwissRailPassion]

If I put the goods shed on the bay, would this prohibit its use for passengers traffic? Would the shed be closed at one end and would the headshunt need a trap?

 

I've ordered the GWR historical survey, I found a hardback copy on ebay for £7!

[The Stationmaster]

If I put the goods shed on the bay, would this prohibit its use for passengers traffic? Would the shed be closed at one end and would the headshunt need a trap?

 

I've ordered the GWR historical survey, I found a hardback copy on ebay for £7!

If you put the goods shed in the bay you wouldn't be able to use the bay for passenger trains (apart from it being too short then anyway).  The good shed needs track to pass through it ideally as this allows wagons to be moved along after unloading/loading, room for only 2 or 3 wagons should be adequate.   The headshunt would need to be trapped if it connects direct to a line used for passenger trains; but could you make the headshunt come off the goods yard sidings - effectively being their trap point?

[SwissRailPassion]

Thanks. I've been to measure up the layout and the space is very limited. If I put the goods shed on the platform side there is no space for the coal siding. Grrr. If I build a platform wall might it be possible to use the bay as a coal siding? I have a single slip this would save space and allow the goods to be shunted from the head shunt and to use the shed siding for departures.

Does anyone have any better ideas?

Plan below:

[The Stationmaster]

Effectively making the bay a goods siding is  no problem at all - apart from any potential coal dust nuisance to passengers waiting on the platform , but I bet we could find a prototype example somewhere.

 

You are however making the layout to difficult to shunt - all you need to do is replace that single slip with a double slip and things will be several thousand per cent simpler for your train crews and Goods Dept staff

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If you wanted a bay platform, what about putting it the other side. Not sure what the siding I've marked with a ? is for. Is it a sand drag? Coal sidings are often (though not always) found at the "back" of the goods yard.

[Miss Prism]

I can't see the need for a bay. If passenger trains are to terminate/start at the station, getting them into the appropriate platform will provide more interest. Providing a carriage siding as maybe part of the stump adjacent to the 'minor line' would be a good place to stable stock.

[Nickinwestwales]

Evening all-looking at this it occurs that a possibility would be for the yard lead to cross the dn line through a diamond & feed into the up (examples Letterston & some on the Cardigan branch in Pembrokeshire & St Andrews in Fife).

If the goods shed is used more for outgoing than incoming it might make sense to put it on the up side (where Peter has put the bay)which would open up space on the Dn side.

Either way I imagine that yard would mostly be worked by Up services with Dn trains running straight through to avoid tying up the entire complex-pure speculation-Mike the stationmaster-over to you here sir !!

ATB

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Evening all-looking at this it occurs that a possibility would be for the yard lead to cross the dn line through a diamond & feed into the up (examples Letterston & some on the Cardigan branch in Pembrokeshire & St Andrews in Fife).

If the goods shed is used more for outgoing than incoming it might make sense to put it on the up side (where Peter has put the bay)which would open up space on the Dn side.

Either way I imagine that yard would mostly be worked by Up services with Dn trains running straight through to avoid tying up the entire complex-pure speculation-Mike the stationmaster-over to you here sir !!

ATB

Nick

You have to work the sidings with Up trains to avoid running round - the loco would be the wrong end on Down trains and running round just to shunt would be time wasting and potentially block the station for too long - in exactly the way you speculate.

 

As far as the diamond is concerned that would have been the 'standard arrangement in earlier years but many such layouts had gone by the late '50s and what was originally proposed - with the facing connection off the Down Line - is quite acceptable for the late '50s and it would save space (which seems to be at a premium).

[SwissRailPassion]

Thanks for some very helpful suggestions. I'm short on space at the front of the layout where the workable distance from the bottom siding to the platform buffer is 13 inches. By placing the shed against the platform there is only enough clearance for loading and no space for the siding. If I put the Shed on the bottom road there is enough space for loading. The workable length of the shed siding is 47 inches, the headshunt 27, the former bay 33, and the short siding 22.

Adding a bay on the up is a good idea but it would shorten the usable length of the up road. The crossover at the left is a run off. This may change to a single connection giving a couple of inches extra on the platform length.

 

The double slip would give maximum space but would it be an expensive luxury at a small station? If you have suggested it Mike, then I guess not. Would just 2 sidings be workable or would 3 be better?

My railway knowledge stems from the late 70s forwards and the intricacies of yard operation are new to me. I used to watch fly shunting in the yard at Bridlington as a boy, with the added delight of locos shunting over the main road approach to the station. However I was too young to work out what they were doing apart from the collection of the brake van.

On this layout I'm hoping to pass up and down trains as well as having a loco in the yard to create maximum interest and variety when demanded by the young fan club from the family.

[The Stationmaster]

A double slip in that position is unusual but far from unknown because in some places the real thing was as pushed for space as you are.  In reality I think the headshunt - as you have called it - is probably too long and could readily be shortened if doing so would allow the pother sidings to be lengthened.  Normally at a small station like this the freight trip would simply shunt off the Up side loop and all would be done and dusted in 15-20 minutes - all a bit different of course when you have youngsters to entertain.  However moving the sidings connection to the other side of the signalbox wouldn't look quite so good or realistic I think - so you might not be able to gain from shortening the headshunt.

[SwissRailPassion]

So, if I go for three sidings: - 1 along platform; 2 short siding; 3 goods shed road, and the shunting spur/headshunt; what would be prototypical traffic for the open sidings. I'm not sure there is room for coal with the limited space, does anyone have any suitable ideas?

Version one had the platform line as a passenger bay - maybe a bay and a double slip to two sidings would be a useful solution?

[Fat Controller]

So, if I go for three sidings: - 1 along platform; 2 short siding; 3 goods shed road, and the shunting spur/headshunt; what would be prototypical traffic for the open sidings. I'm not sure there is room for coal with the limited space, does anyone have any suitable ideas?

Version one had the platform line as a passenger bay - maybe a bay and a double slip to two sidings would be a useful solution?

Lots of general merchandise would be carried in opens, sheeted or not, depending on the nature of the load. The seasonal trains of fertiliser and animal feed would probably have been unloaded on an open siding, direct on to agricultural merchants' lorries.

Rather than have a goods shed, you could have one or more provender stores (as modelled by Ratio) in a corner somewhere- anything that the merchants hadn't sold in advance could go into these.

[SwissRailPassion]

Ah, I'm building the Ratio goods shed at the moment....

If the bay was passenger then the brake could be left there during shunting could it not? Would general goods be able to use a siding placed next to the platform (ie the bay as non-passenger)?

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, I'm building the Ratio goods shed at the moment....

If the bay was passenger then the brake could be left there during shunting could it not? Would general goods be able to use a siding placed next to the platform (ie the bay as non-passenger)?

Yes, yes.  At my local station - a long time ago - the departing freight trip was formed up on one of the (three) platform lines.

[maunsel]

So, if I go for three sidings: - 1 along platform; 2 short siding; 3 goods shed road, and the shunting spur/headshunt; what would be prototypical traffic for the open sidings. I'm not sure there is room for coal with the limited space, does anyone have any suitable ideas?

Version one had the platform line as a passenger bay - maybe a bay and a double slip to two sidings would be a useful solution?

 

If you consider the GWR's West Wales lines from Carmarthen over to Cardigan, Newcastle Emlyn, Aberaeron and up to Aberystwyth most of the open sidings would include pit props/timber, general agricultural traffic, milk, horses & ponies or cobs for cities and pits, and general merchandise for local shops and traders.

 

Quite often eg at GWR's Llanybyther (Llanybydder) the goods shed had double doors to the platform and was also served fro the goods yard too. This allowed for the handling of small goods to and from trains at the platform without extra shunting.

 

If your line is single track from both directions then a passenger bay seems a bit of an overkill - after all traffic would not usually be so intense as to generate three passenger trains at one go. But there is no reason why a bay shouldn't terminate against a goods shed wall. After all if you need access to the shed it only requires a siding parallel to the bay. 

 

As for coal, in rural areas local wood was the usual domestic fuel, coal was more favoured in towns and for use in local industries or boiler rooms.

 

 

Good luck!

 

Eric

[MarkC]

Effectively making the bay a goods siding is  no problem at all - apart from any potential coal dust nuisance to passengers waiting on the platform , but I bet we could find a prototype example somewhere.

 

Goathland had its coal drops at the back of the Down platform

 

Mark

[Nickinwestwales]

Mike-thanks for informed comment

ATB

Nick

[SwissRailPassion]

Here here Nick.

 

I am learning more and more about traffic and layouts. In that every piece of track had to be there for a purpose due to the expense; I am keen to get this right or at least produce something that won't cause a seasoned expert to chuckle. My next step is to measure everything and produce a scale sketch to work out the possible shunting moves. 

The idea is to enable a freight train to shunt the yard whilst other trains can pass. I can put the yard on a walkabout controller and have a little point control panel at the front which will duplicate the yard points so it can be operated from the front. The next generation are very excited and eventually I'd like to go dcc sound which works well on small layouts and gives a realistic feel in the limited perspective.

 

Goathland coal drops also have a shed, presumably to shield the passengers and act as a storehouse. It's quite high up. After a quick google I find the same coal shed arrangement was built at Castleton Moor. 

 

Thanks for all your help and suggestions so far.

[buffalo]

...Goathland coal drops also have a shed, presumably to shield the passengers and act as a storehouse. It's quite high up. After a quick google I find the same coal shed arrangement was built at Castleton Moor...

The covered section was for handling lime, not coal. See this topic.

 

Nick

[SwissRailPassion]

Thanks -an interesting link. I'm waiting for the GWR historical survey to arrive to see the track plans and work out how they were shunted and why.

[The Stationmaster]

Here here Nick.

 

I am learning more and more about traffic and layouts. In that every piece of track had to be there for a purpose due to the expense; I am keen to get this right or at least produce something that won't cause a seasoned expert to chuckle. My next step is to measure everything and produce a scale sketch to work out the possible shunting moves. 

The idea is to enable a freight train to shunt the yard whilst other trains can pass. I can put the yard on a walkabout controller and have a little point control panel at the front which will duplicate the yard points so it can be operated from the front. The next generation are very excited and eventually I'd like to go dcc sound which works well on small layouts and gives a realistic feel in the limited perspective.

 

Goathland coal drops also have a shed, presumably to shield the passengers and act as a storehouse. It's quite high up. After a quick google I find the same coal shed arrangement was built at Castleton Moor. 

 

Thanks for all your help and suggestions so far.

I doubt if you'd be able to do much shunting 'shut-in' on a track layout like that to be honest - you've only got two sidings and your train could - in theory - be as long as one of the main platform loops.  Usually shunting would be done off the running line at a small station like this although one option would be to shove the train back on the long (coal) siding and shunt the short (goods shed) siding from there although effectively we are usually only talking about a handful of wagons - one, or possibly two vans for the shed itself plus one to pull out and possibly some full loads for the outer end of the siding if there's (roadway) room to work them; meanwhile the coal merchant is champing at the bit to get at his wagon(s).