US Narrow Gauge - Prototype or Fictional setting

[Jeff Smith]

This question could have been posted in several forums but this seemed the most appropriate.

 

I am constructing a Bachmann 0n30 based minimum space layout (8' x 2' scenic with continuous running through a hidden rear circuit) and have acquired two locos and some coaches and logging stock.  The Baldwin 2-6-0 and three coaches are in Pennsylvania RR livery and after considerable research it turns out to represent a real NG line acquired by the PRR, the Ohio River and Western which operated under PRR ownership from 1902 to 1931.  This railroad acted as a general carrier and could conceivably have carried a variety of freight and also have had logging spurs.

 

So my general question, being new to US modelling is, do modellers of US shortlines and NG railroads generally choose real carriers and locations or create fictional ones?

[goodmayes]

I think you just placed yourself in the top 2% of US "modelers". I would say that several decades ago 75% of US model railroads were of fictional carriers, but dropping to about 20% today, while 90% are of fictional locations/routes.  The switch to real carriers is mostly because so many locos and cars now are bought RTR and pre-painted today, rather than home-made and home painted, as was common in the past.

 

The only issue you may run up against, if you want strong prototype fidelity, is that 30" gauge is relatively uncommon and I think (i don't know) mostly around New England. The vast majority of well known NG lines were 3ft gauge.

 

Ted

[Jeff Smith]

Ted,

 

You are definitely right about the gauge, there were but a handful (or less) of 30" gauge ones in the US - almost all were 3' hence the more accurate 0n3, which as a P4 modeller I am having to swallow hard to accept....however a 'quickie' RTR was what I decided to do so will live with it.

 

Compared to the UK, mainly for geographical reasons, there were hundreds if not thousands of little known and or short-lived NG and SG logging and mineral rairoads. Even if you make up a name you may well find there was one at one time... The Bachmann 0n30 range comes in a variety of line names but most are also available unlettered so you can basically please yourself with a name.

 

It's an interesting contrast to modelling the Big Four where there was some individuality of equipment and style such that you can invent a location but still have it recognisable as belonging to a particular railway. US modelling seems very different.

 

I haven't yet finally settled on the 'Ohio River and Western RR' the other NG line briefly owned by the PRR was the 'Waynsberg and Washington'; my favorite name in Pennsylvania though is undoubtedly the 'Altoona and Wopsononock RR' which went through several changes of ownership and name to be finally abandoned in 1919 having been converted to SG in 1916.....

[HSB]

I believe the only 2' 6" gauge common carrier in the US was the Yosemite Short Line which was abandoned before completion. There were also a number of 2' 6" logging  company lines, mainly in California. The New England lines were 2' gauge.

[JWB]

There's a list, not complete, of 30-inch (and thereabout) lines at http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=ngmodrly;id=3;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Epearcedale%2Dconservation%2Dpark%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fc%26b%2Fthirty%2Ehtml

[Jeff Smith]

Here's a good worldwide summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_track_gauges

[Talltim]

It kinda depends how much you want the US stuff to be break from the P4 stuff. If you want to model one of the PRR owned narrow gauge lines are there any locations on one you want to model? If not do you fancy an imaginary extension to one? The advantage of PRR lettered stock is that you could make up a third PRR line and not have to repaint whereas any other of the real lines modelled by Bachmann are more limiting. I've not explained that very well, but I suppose a simile is that it's easier to imagine the GWR owning a second narrow gauge railway than the Tallyllyn doing so.

Beyond that you are getting into repainting into either another real line or an imaginary line's colours, and for me that would make me want to start regauging etc. Not a bad thing in itself, but then it's not a fun quick break.

[Jeff Smith]

Tim,

 

You are right, I'm just having a little problem adjusting to the RTR as-is.  I have some nice Micro Engineering code 83 track and points and will use the layout as an introduction to DCC.

 

I am not basing the track plan on any real location so I guess do not need to actually give it a name.....

[BR60103]

Jeff: as far as I know, most Narrow gauge modellers use a prototype with "Denver" in the name.

 

What does your P4 measure in inches? I think it's really close to the 3/4" that On3 requires.

[ChristopherBlackwell]

In one book that I have about American Narrow gauge there were over three hundred narrow gauge common carrier railroads and this does not begin to include industry owned railroads such as logging quarry and mining railroads. I should point out there were narrow gage railroads in Pennsylvania including oil railroads, timber railroads, coal mining railroads and most of the were common carriers. There were narrow gauge railroads in most states and even an attempt to make up a transcontinental narrow that connected railroads from Ohio to Texas and through New York State.

 

A number, of what were later were standard gauge railroads, were started after the Civil War as narrow gauge, to be Standard Gauged later if they proved to be profitable. This include the better known Denver and Rio Grand Railway which was originally built to be a north south railroad to go to Mexico City. This does not even begin to cover the number of planned railroads that never happened, even some that started building.

 

So regardless of whether you go for Prototype, or imaginary, most of the real ones you would have to guess and great deal what they would have looked like. Because we have at best only limited number of photos on most of them. The problem with prototype is the limited prototypes manufacture in our various scales. Despite the fact that narrow gauge lasted into the fifties, most of the equipment was made during the narrow gauge boom time of 1870s  to end of the 1880s. Narrow gauge started too late to really stand a chance of becoming a new standard gauge and a lot of the claims made by promotors were proven to have no true.

 

They were not that much cheaper to build, unless built to far  lesser engineering standards which would create running and maintanance night mares later on. But as a result of continued failure of narrow gauge there was always a lot of used narrow gauge equipment on the market cheap for anyone who wanted to build a cheap roailway. Now the problem is that most of the equipment being 1870 to 1880s era and often made by smaller builders, only very few are showing up today in model railroads. Now in creating your own railroad you can have it buy its equipment second hand from a few prototypes that are being manufacture, or you can kit bash or build from scratch.

This question could have been posted in several forums but this seemed the most appropriate.

 
So my general question, being new to US modeling is, do modellers of US shortlines and NG railroads generally choose real carriers and locations or create fictional ones?

[ChristopherBlackwell]

Ted,

 

While thirty inch gauge models are used to represent the railroads in Maine, the actual  ones were two foot gauge railroads, and then there were other such as three foot gauge ones as well. HOn30 and On30 were both compromises to all people to represent them using ready made working in N gauge and HO gauge instead of having to build them from scratch. Actual two gauge railroad were rare enough, we had one north of me here in New Mexico, but the larger batch was in the state of Maine. 30 inch Gauge were even rarer in the United States but were quite popular in Colonial Railroads.

The only issue you may run up against, if you want strong prototype fidelity, is that 30" gauge is relatively uncommon and I think (i don't know) mostly around New England. The vast majority of well known NG lines were 3ft gauge.

 

Ted

[ChristopherBlackwell]

Jeff, there was no shortage of 3 foot gauge railroads in Ohio and near by states either. If your railroad was independent or only connected with one outside railroad the gauge was not all that important unless you have a lot of freight to transfer to standard gauge line. Before World War One labor was cheap and transfer was mostly by hand. However if the volume of freight grew then transferring of freight  could become a real problem, both in time delay and in damage to freight and even theft. This is what forced most of the successive narrow-gauge line to standard gauge. Now standardizing did not always make a successful standard gauge line unless the line could be brought up to or originally was built to standard gauge engineering standards. The Ma and Pa. Maryland and Pennsylvania, which had started as three narrow gauge lines was limited to slow speeds short trains because of the original steep narrow gauge grades and tight narrow gauge curves, originally to cut cos of building  the original narrow gauge lines. It was never profitable enough to even try to upgrade it to standard gauge engineering practice.

 

By the way if you want to justify 30 gauge remember if your investors were mostly European that had invested in colonial railroads, the promotor might well have pushed the idea of 30 inch gauge.

 

Many of our American Railroads relied mostly on European investors, as Americans were rather leery of railway investment which is why most small railroads would be funded by bonds, that might later bankrupt the company. Most American Railroads tended to go bankrupt more than once and it was the common stockholders that lost their shirts agan and again.

Ted,

You are definitely right about the gauge, there were but a handful (or less) of 30" gauge ones in the US - almost all were 3' hence the more accurate 0n3, which as a P4 modeller I am having to swallow hard to accept....however a 'quickie' RTR was what I decided to do so will live with it.


I haven't yet finally settled on the 'Ohio River and Western RR' the other NG line briefly owned by the PRR was the 'Waynsberg and Washington'; my favorite name in Pennsylvania though is undoubtedly the 'Altoona and Wopsononock RR' which went through several changes of ownership and name to be finally abandoned in 1919 having been converted to SG in 1916.....
Wopsononock Train.jpg

[ChristopherBlackwell]

That is probably because the Denver and Rio Grand is over represented in model railroading ad the one narrow gauge railroad that most people are aware of. That in turn is because after the death of America Western Movies in the 1960's when most motion picture companies scrapped their narrow gauge trains thinking the westerns would never be popular again, the period of the Italian spaghetti westerns, the later western movies could only be made only with Denver and Rio Grande stye locomotives and cars.

 

The history we lost with the loss of all those movies trains that were the remaining 1870 &1880 railroad equipment  bought by many of the larger studieos in the 1920s and 30s from narrow gauge railroads closing down. Many of those trains had gone through as many as a dozen different railroads during their lifetime. From the 1890s on there were only a few narrow gauge railroads that ever bought new equipment. Most of the narrow gauge railroads would buy all of their equipment second, third, and beyond, hand.

Jeff: as far as I know, most Narrow gauge modelers use a prototype with "Denver" in the name.

 

What does your P4 measure in inches? I think it's really close to the 3/4" that On3 requires.

[trisonic]

There was a fantastic network of NG Logging lines (almost entirely of Ponderosa Pines) around Flagstaff, Arizona. I don't think I have seen any models of them...

Flagstaff still has the World largest Ponderosa Pine Forest.

 

Best, Pete.

[dullsteamer]

You are definitely right about the gauge, there were but a handful (or less) of 30" gauge ones in the US 

 

Have you considered modelling a Cuban or South American line? Plenty of 30" gauge lines there using US-built locos and rollingstock...

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Jeff Smith]

 

Jeff:

 What does your P4 measure in inches? I think it's really close to the 3/4" that On3 requires.

 

Yes, surprisingly close, P4 at 18.83mm is only 0.22mm too small.....actually when I received my 0n30 track from Micro Engineering I was struck by how similar in sleeper spacing and appearance it would be to C&L 00 track - except for the chairs and BH rail section of course!

[HEATH STATION]

Jeff,

There is a well researched and illustrated history of the prototype Ohio River and Western written by Edward Cass, published by Timbertimes in the late 1990's.. If I recall correctly it ran from the B&O in Bellaire, Ohio and was taken over by the Pennsy in a stock acquisition. (Been a while since I last picked up my copy!)

It's called Hidden Treasures' and there are 4 copies on ABE from £47 to £100 plus postage showing in the USA

 

Dave

 

edited to include the book title and availability

[Jeff Smith]

Dave,

 

Yes, thanks, I had come across that title during my research - not ready to fork out that sort of money yet though; trying to fight off my finescale research tendancies. As implied in an earlier thread this layout is geared to operation rather than historical accuracy hence DCC, autocouplers, continuous run and some shunting interest - also for my American born grandson to enjoy, at least that's what I keep telling myself.....

 

Thanks to everyone for all your input - I plan to post some progress reports as the layout gets constructed but don't hold your breath as things will slow down in the Summer months.

[298]

This question could have been posted in several forums but this seemed the most appropriate.

 

 

So my general question, being new to US modelling is, do modellers of US shortlines and NG railroads generally choose real carriers and locations or create fictional ones?

 

So you live in the US and want to model US NG, and think this forum is the most suitable for you...? That's saying something for RMweb...!!

 

Most On30 modellers do seem to take the freelance approach, so much so that their layouts seem to recognised by the purists as a new cliche after years of GWR branchlines and small diesel depots. I must admit that layouts stocked with 100% out of the box Bachmann don't really appeal to me on a modelling level (although do have merit in an operational sense when all you want to do is play trains, but there is enough of a sufficient aftermarket in detailing parts or models from other manufacturers to be able to make something unique.

[Jeff Smith]

 

So you live in the US and want to model US NG, and think this forum is the most suitable for you...? That's saying something for RMweb...!!

 

Most On30 modellers do seem to take the freelance approach, so much so that their layouts seem to recognised by the purists as a new cliche after years of GWR branchlines and small diesel depots. I must admit that layouts stocked with 100% out of the box Bachmann don't really appeal to me on a modelling level (although do have merit in an operational sense when all you want to do is play trains, but there is enough of a sufficient aftermarket in detailing parts or models from other manufacturers to be able to make something unique.

I assume your first comment is complimentary...however I am a Brit, a modeller, a long time member of RMweb, and enjoy the comments of people like me, ie., that have gone through the same learning curve and were not brought up in the US railroad scene. I have dabled with some of the US forums but prefer RMweb - it's a cultural thing!

 

As a long time UK outline kit and scratch builder this is a new departure for me - perhaps I'm just being lazy. My 0 scale interest was initially peaked by planning an 0-16.5 GVT layout but this requires a few kit built items so Bachmann came to the rescue. The 8'x4' layout will have an 8' centre backscene with 0n30 on one side and 0-16.5 on the other, with continuous running through the 'foreign' sides. And it is true that the Bachmann stock, just like any RTR stock, lends itself to some superdetailing and weathering later on. I do like the chunky size of 0 NG stock and this is I think some of the appeal.

[298]

 I assume your first comment is complimentary...however I am a Brit, a modeller, a long time member of RMweb, and enjoy the comments of people like me, ie., that have gone through the same learning curve and were not brought up in the US railroad scene. I have dabled with some of the US forums but prefer RMweb - it's a cultural thing!

 

 

 

Yes, it was complimentary. I'm a US modeller based in the UK, I do view but rarely post on US forums- partly because Traction modelling is so under represented over there and the small shelf layouts are only a small but upcoming genre, but mainly because I want to talk to modellers and see their layouts or work at shows over here and have a previous history and interest in British modelling.  

 

Another point that I tried to make in an article for Model Railroader was that I was used to doing things in a certain "British" way and was more likely to use materials that I was familiar with and had to hand, so my locos use 4mm scale handrail knobs and even Railmatch or Precision BR Warning Yellow paint for Union Pacific Armour Yellow. As much as I like reading articles from the US, using terms such as "Drywall Mud, Homasote, and spackling from Home Depot" gets lost in translation from American to English...

[trisonic]

True that.

Took me ages over here to get the lingo...

 

Best, Pete.

[Mike Boucher]

Commenting here to echo what others have said...

 

The overwhelming majority of US narrow gauge modelers either do Colorado, Either in On3 or HOn3.  I would estimate that most of those model prototype locations (e.g. Ophir loop!), but there's a good percentage who freelance the locations.  Prominent examples I that come to mind are NG&SLG columnists Harry Brunk, who modeled prototype Colorado locations (as well as locos and rolling stock) but with a fictional roadname, and Jim Vail, who has both a fictional roadname and location.  A lesser group model logging railroads, such as West Side Lumber, also in On3 or HOn3.  The numbers who model other railroads (EBT 3', Maine 2 footers) are smaller still.

 

But, when you get to the On30 crowd, I think the balance it shifts drastically to freelancers.  Might be because 30" gauge was rare in the US, so modeling either Colorado (3' gauge) or Maine (2' gauge) is a compromise.

 

I'll also note that the Bachmann 2-6-0 shown in the OP is based on a Colorado and Southern engine (#22 IIRC)

 

So you live in the US and want to model US NG, and think this forum is the most suitable for you...? That's saying something for RMweb...!!

 

BTW - I'm born and raised in the US, model US NG, have spent all of 2 weeks in the UK, and I regularly read RMweb.  But, then again, I do model British prototype (7mm and N scale!)

[Jeff Smith]

 

True that.

Took me ages over here to get the lingo...

 

Best, Pete.

There are equivalents for most things - emulsion paint is called latex paint but amounts to the same thing. My biggest problem (the reverse of 298's) is model paint colours, there are plenty of paints here but you have to do a bit of comparison shopping instead of just settling for a commercial offering with the name you need, ie I recently finished a Metropolitan Dreadnought coach in LT livery in 'leather' - it looks right to me! Buffer Beam Red is Insignia Red from the military ranges, etc, etc. Actually accuracy of model colours is a whole kettle of fish - I have several examples from different manufactures with the same name but with quite a variation in the colours.

[Jeff Smith]

 

I'll also note that the Bachmann 2-6-0 shown in the OP is based on a Colorado and Southern engine (#22 IIRC)

 

BTW - I'm born and raised in the US, model US NG, have spent all of 2 weeks in the UK, and I regularly read RMweb.  But, then again, I do model British prototype (7mm and N scale!)

Mike - yes I knew it was based on #22 but the question I have been unable to answer is was there #9687 in OR&W service, and if so was it a Baldwin or the very similar Alco?

 

I'm responding in another thread about modelling railways which you are not familiar with (having grown up in another country to the one being modelled) so how are your British models received by your US modelling buddies?