What have you done with your Keyser kit

[Jol Wilkinson]

Some, if not all, were acquired by Kay Butler to become part of the KeyKits range of the Wrightlines business.

 

Certainly the Metropolitan/District Railway 4-4-0T was reissued with a nice etched chassis which was also available separately to those who wished to upgrade their original Keyser ones. The GWR broad gauge 2-2-2-2 went the same way but this is now with the Broad Gauge Society.

 

Possibly the rest of the Milestones series are with ABS?

 

They do come up on ebay quite often but can attract high prices if totally untouched. 

The non GWR Milestones kits don't appear to have gone the the BGS. If they went to ABS they haven't resurfaced and probably never will.

[Coach bogie]

Were the ''Milestones of Transport'' kits produced in lesser numbers than the standard Keyser kits ? They do not seem to come up for sale as often ; in fact, I have never seen any of them for sale.

They were produced in limited quantities. There was an additional European milestone range (which included the L&M Lion in French packaging).

 

One of the rarest is the GWR Armstrong 4-4-0 of which only 50 appeared to have been cast, when K's was being fronted by Teign Models. If this figure is accurate then there are 48 left out there as I have one and a good friend has another. It was not an easy kit to get hold of. Hattons had listed it for some time. By chance I was ordering something else and enquired if there was any news. A handful had just arrived. Living in Manchester at the time, I asked them to hold one and I would be there in an hour, driving immediately over to Smithdown Road. They had mine and one other which I also bought on spec. Not much of a punt as I knew my mate would not hesitate to give me the money for it. I have never seen another one since apart from one on eBay which sold for over £300.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[bertiedog]

Just found packed away, a K's L&M  Lion loco, near finished body with extras, but no tender with it, and no chassis.

 

I cannot remember why the tender has gone, but easy enough to make a new one, but the chassis was abandoned at the time, the whole lot was S**t, the frames were not straight or flt, did not match in wheelbase or length, the motor was the dreadful plastic bearing one, the axles were D section, the wheels pushed on, resulting in eccentricity and wobble, also the centre was Bakelite and was not moulded right, it crumbled, and was not keyed to the tyres, which fell off.

 

The trailing wheels and tender wheels were rusted in the pack! Oddly the drivers did not rust.

 

I did start to correct the chassis, but gave up, leaving just the body and tender done.

 

I will get some wheels for it and a Chinese motor, and new Markit gears and assemble it. The tender it has is not the original design for the Lion, as the real thing was dreamt up by the LMS in the 1920's to provide a tender for the centennial celebrations where Lion was steamed up after an extensive re-build. It later appeared in the Titfield Thunderbolt film from Ealing Films..

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

On the 440 Armstrong I assembled about three of those kits for customers, body OK, the rest the usual pile of p**. Once set up with a decent motor and gearbox they ran very well indeed on Hamblings wheels, pulled like blazes!

The castings were not too good, maybe the low number cast indicated a problem with the moulds made at the time.

Stephen

[Steamport Southport]

Just found packed away, a K's L&M  Lion loco, near finished body with extras, but no tender with it, and no chassis.

 

I cannot remember why the tender has gone, but easy enough to make a new one, but the chassis was abandoned at the time, the whole lot was S**t, the frames were not straight or flt, did not match in wheelbase or length, the motor was the dreadful plastic bearing one, the axles were D section, the wheels pushed on, resulting in eccentricity and wobble, also the centre was Bakelite and was not moulded right, it crumbled, and was not keyed to the tyres, which fell off.

 

The trailing wheels and tender wheels were rusted in the pack! Oddly the drivers did not rust.

 

I did start to correct the chassis, but gave up, leaving just the body and tender done.

 

I will get some wheels for it and a Chinese motor, and new Markit gears and assemble it. The tender it has is not the original design for the Lion, as the real thing was dreamt up by the LMS in the 1920's to provide a tender for the centennial celebrations where Lion was steamed up after an extensive re-build. It later appeared in the Titfield Thunderbolt film from Ealing Films..

 

Stephen

 

So authentic then.   

 

The real one has bent frames that don't match. Wheels are wobbly, so much so that it has trouble negotiating left hand points. I don't know how they ever allowed it out on the mainline.

 

Tender is from a Furness Railway locomotive. But that's now authentic since it's had it much longer than it had it's original tender.

 

 

 

Jason

[lofty1966]

I got one if the Armstrong's off ebay for 50 quid, buy it now.....Bargain !

Edited October 20, 2016 by lofty1966

[John_Hughes]

So authentic then. 

 

The real one has bent frames that don't match. Wheels are wobbly, so much so that it has trouble negotiating left hand points. I don't know how they ever allowed it out on the mainline.

 

Tender is from a Furness Railway locomotive. But that's now authentic since it's had it much longer than it had it's original tender.

 

 

 

Jason

 

The frames were bent in the duel with the steam-roller in Titfield Thunderbolt, I believe! The original frames had I think been cut down anyway when the loco was in use as a stationary boiler.

 

Agreed that the k's chassis was ghastly, even by their standards!

[brian777999]

Assuming I can get hold of one : are they worth working on ? With patience and care, can you end up with a decent working model or is it best described as a sow's ear ?

[bertiedog]

In the Titfield Thunderbolt, Lion was not damaged in the "dual", that was with the GWR engine 042, it was involved in a shunt, pushed by an industrial diesel. I think a Barclay 040., in the scene where the Lion is caught up by the errant loose coach.

 

The Diesel provided power for shots when Lion could not steam, and for rehearsals. It's small size meant it was invisible in shots from low angles looking back down the train. But this meant the diesel driver depended on one of the film crew clapper boys to signal him when to stop pushing the coach and loco etc. He could not see around the coach on the low loader frame.

 

This led to the accident, where the diesel ran on, pushing the coach on to the tender, and damaging the rear buffer beam of the tender.

 

The scene did not work as intended, and not wishing the risk of further damage, the director re- wrote the scene to fit the shots, and re-edited it does not show, leaving just the rough shunt.

 

The sound track taken at the time was useless due to the profanities from the crew and actors!!. It was dubbed over to cover up.

 

Also Lion was not in steam so much as it appears in the film, they pushed her up to speed on slopes, to run under gravity, stuffing the chimney with burning rags to make it look like steam!

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Assuming I can get hold of one : are they worth working on ? With patience and care, can you end up with a decent working model or is it best described as a sow's ear ?

You don't say which one, no K's kits are completely impossible, they make very fine models with care, but it may only be the castings that are usable. Some are unique like the Armstrong, Hornby ain't going to make one, (wish they would), so to get one bar an etched kit, then the K's is the way to go.

 

Brass etched kits are nice, but are very light in weight, and need a lot of ballasting to get them to run as well. K's are heavy, and run well, the haulage can be astonishing,(but not with the original motor).

 

Also Airfix parts they are not, they are a set of engineering castings, and need filing and fettling, plus additions and subtractions to get each piece to fit properly, and really must be soldered to get the best finishes. Glue will work, but......if glue is used it usually indicates the modeller is inexperienced, and the results without all the fettling required, can be a ghastly mess. The soldering may be needed to fill holes, repair corners etc., to the parts during assembly, and is the best way to attach brass extras.

 

If a K's is done correctly it should see off any rival maker or scratch built loco, there is no inherent reason that they are in any way inferior, it is up to the builder to correct the problems, usually minor, but lots of them, and then learn to paint the loco to the same standard!

 

Many a K's kit is poor in looks due to the paint, not saying all are, but people do not prep the whitemetal enough, and use thin undercoats, leaving the surface a bit rough.

 

Keysers own advice was to file all surfaces flat with needle files after assembly or if part hidden, during assembly. Then to sand with fine emery, or where there are rivets to use a brass suede shoe brush to "seal" the surfaces.(it must be a brass brush, not steel brush plated to look like brass, the steel is too harsh)

 

After this is done, the whole model is "peaned"with a bic pen with no ink, the roller ball is run over all surfaces with a random pattern, takes time, but leaves a good surface, The suede shoe brush is the used again, and the bic pen again, with careful scraping of sharp corners with scalpels etc., to define sharp edges.

 

Then a fibre glass brush can be run over the lot to give a general good matt surface.

The model must then be immersed in strong thinners and washed off to remove all oil, and then gently scrubbed with Vim powder and a fine finish toothbrush, finishing with a water and detergent wash.

About 10 minutes before spraying the undercoat, the model is washed with cellulose thinners from the spray gun.

 

My own advice is to then use car undercoat, red oxide or grey and then use suitable colours from car paint or Humbrol, in many thin coats,

 

At the undercoat stage there is still a chance to rectify any dings with plastic padding filler, and again there should be several coats of undercoat.

 

By the time it is properly painted and any brass parts polished etc, it should be impossible to tell if it was scratchbuilt or a kit. Time is the key, it takes ages to fettle the body, and maybe weeks to paint, if you do it quicker, then consider whether your really getting the good results you could get by spending more time on it.

 

Stephen

[Golden Fleece 30]

I personally think that all the whitemetal kits from the early 60's when I was old enough to do them (my first was a Wills 0-6-0 quickly followed by the A2 around 1965 when I was 13) have their own good and bad points. Some have more good points and some more bad points. K's kits were a little too much for me at the time but by the late 60's and through the 70's I enjoyed them.  I have to say the running was not too good then until my skills were such where I could modify or make the chassis better.  By then I had the Bulldog, Atlantic, 57xx all nice runners.  I never got the Black 5 chassis working though but put the body on a propriety chassis as I did with the WR 2-8-0 which went on a Dublo 8F chassis.  I have all the K's bodyline kits for the Dublo 0-6-0 chassis and they to me are very nice.  For their time I think both K's and Wills were by far the best with very little between them especially body wise.  K's chassis did leave a little to be desired but the early ones with nice mazak/nickel wheels on an axle were far superior to the plastic centered push on ones with a cra**y motor.  I quite liked the ones with two magnets at either end but this is all my views.  At the very bottom of the kit scale for me was the Cornard range, a B17 and WD that ended up in the bin.  Please note I never had a kit from every manufacturer but did also have Gem and Bec ones.

 

 

Garry

[ROSSPOP]

I have a nostalgic fondness for K`s kits.  Yes, they were somewhat limited in their scope of ever achieving a good modelling finish ( more rattle cans than airbrushes in the 1970`s ) and you had to really work at getting them to run ( the arrival of feedback controllers helped).

 

On the plus side for me back then as a student..........Just about  affordable...........   Could be built with minimal if any soldering........... and they were a COMPLETE kit.

 

I can`t recall any other COMPLETE 4mm kit manufacturers.   I wished there were more, but us railway modellers are a fussy bunch.

 

For my part, I moved on to other white metal kits...... Sutherland/Cotswold  had far superior castings but had a solid milled chassis block with no motor or wheels ....... and then Westward models with superior castings and an early style etched chassis fret............

 

 

With the obligatory BSL autocoach kit

[bertiedog]

K's were in theory a complete kit, but the non whitemetal parts were often rubbish, and the quality of the rubbish offered moved like a moving target, they never got it right in one go.

 

There was zero consistency, no quality control, constant redesigns, but no progress. They were inept engineers, who understood models, but failed to use methods that worked.

 

I should know, I worked in the trade and made masters for them for the white metal parts, but despaired of them at times, D shaped axles, motors without bearings, wheels in at least 10 versions, plastic centre, Bakelite centres, bushed, un-bushed, white metal spokes, brass rims, plated brass rims, steel rims, plated and un-plated, Nickel silver rims, and even aluminium. All wobbled or were eccentric in some way or degree.

 

They stamped frames out of sheet brass strip, that "relaxed" under stress release, result .....banana frames. Then they offered super etched rods, that did not match the frames!  They found it too expensive to make brass handrail knobs, so moulded them in plastic, they were awful.

 

Whist working in the trade I assembled every version of all the kits at one time or another, all had issues that needed attention, often major like scrapping the entire chassis and wheels.

 

The original motors were just about OK, K's bought them in, twin magnets, with a five pole armature, but prone to wear, and could be very noisy. The last motors were a joke, moulded bearings as part of the frame...........

 

The bodies were OK, they were accurate and with due care assembled well, but everything else in the box was a curates egg...........

[locomad]

One made many years ago

[hayfield]

K's were in theory a complete kit, but the non whitemetal parts were often rubbish, and the quality of the rubbish offered moved like a moving target, they never got it right in one go.

 

There was zero consistency, no quality control, constant redesigns, but no progress. They were inept engineers, who understood models, but failed to use methods that worked.

 

I should know, I worked in the trade and made masters for them for the white metal parts, but despaired of them at times, D shaped axles, motors without bearings, wheels in at least 10 versions, plastic centre, Bakelite centres, bushed, un-bushed, white metal spokes, brass rims, plated brass rims, steel rims, plated and un-plated, Nickel silver rims, and even aluminium. All wobbled or were eccentric in some way or degree.

 

They stamped frames out of sheet brass strip, that "relaxed" under stress release, result .....banana frames. Then they offered super etched rods, that did not match the frames!  They found it too expensive to make brass handrail knobs, so moulded them in plastic, they were awful.

 

Whist working in the trade I assembled every version of all the kits at one time or another, all had issues that needed attention, often major like scrapping the entire chassis and wheels.

 

The original motors were just about OK, K's bought them in, twin magnets, with a five pole armature, but prone to wear, and could be very noisy. The last motors were a joke, moulded bearings as part of the frame...........

 

The bodies were OK, they were accurate and with due care assembled well, but everything else in the box was a curates egg...........

 

 

I agree with most of what you have said, especially the later wheels and motors. I also found their pickups a bit fiddly. Whilst what you have said about the early frames is true they still worked, the wheels were pre-quartered and the motors were quite robust. The other problem I found was the outside frame loco cranks

 

As a young modeller they were affordable and a complete kit, quite some time ago on this site I did a 60's price comparison using a W&H catalogue, by the time you bought everything Wills kits were twice the price !! my paper round money would not stretch to this.

 

We bought these in the pre-internet days, our only source of information was the Railway Modeller or NRC or Model Railway news. And those who wrote about building kits made it look so easy. My first kit was a Dean Goods, ran OK and still have it, likewise the next which was a 57xx. These were followed up by an Aberdare, Bull Dog and Duke Dog. Had issues with both the newer style motors and the outside cranks. Most locos got re-wheeled with Romfords and motors and 3 got etched chassis

 

The world has now moved on, tutorials and help from the web has bought new skills to many. Along with wealth to afford an array of tools as well as components, in real terms. There is still something about building this type of loco that many or us enjoy, warts and all there is nothing better that putting one of these together and seeing it run

 

Most of the K's kits have to be sourced second hand, though Sourheastern Finecast and Branchlines are re-introducing selected kits, up dating them accordingly. Though for a simple 0-6-0 I doubt if you would get much change out of £150 once wheels motor and gears are bought, a far superior loco to the budget Keyser would be produced

 

Back on the budget theme, though not a K's, you could have had a LNER 4-4-2t for just over £50 on eBay at the weekend http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sutherland-Cotswold-Models-Part-Built-Locomotive-LNER-C16-Class-4-4-2T-Model-/222283852924?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=2kHhCxO70AaXEpbU3%252BPohU5fWjQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

No idea if it has a motor, but if not still a good buy as the wheels would cost upwards of £30 now, if well build a clean up, new hand rails and a quick re-spray would pay dividends, if not a dunk in your favourite liquid should remove the paint and if glued together un-stick it and a few evenings of enjoyable modelling would follow

[ROSSPOP]

Yeah  but !       .......     As an avid young loco kit modeller in the 70`s we had to be gratefull for what we could get........... and not being taught in metalwork classes in the 60`s how to make a kit we read up on the experiences of others in the model railway mags of the time, used a bit of determination, patience and good old trial and error and eventually made the damn things work !!

 

We were then ready to move on/up? to those Mallard Models (Rolls-Royce ) and Jidenco (Robin-Reliant) etched kits

 

The best way to learn is to problem solve and so many years later we can now complete any crap kit that comes along.......... and fix/improve those indifferent quality RTR mechanisms that haemorrhage through quality control........

 

I only wish now that I could afford a camera at the time to have recorded all that was done........

Edited October 24, 2016 by ROSSPOP

[Golden Fleece 30]

Regarding K's issues, they actually made the castings for Wrenn for their Streamlined Coronation loco.  From what I read in the Wrenn story most castings went back as poor quality hence the rareity of those locos, I think more than half were returned.  I will say this does not surprise me with this loco as I have seen in the last couple of years 2 brand new K's kits and the main body is awful.  It is so deformed narrowing in I would be scared of it breaking or deforming on top if it was opened up.  Suffice to say I did not buy either especially as I have new Hornby bodies on Dublo chassis's and a Jamieson brass/nickel one.

 

Regarding some comments above, we all know the issues but one factor not talked about is the capability of the person making it up.  As I mentioned I could not do the chassis very well in the early days but later got them working fine.  These were the "stamped" out bent ones where you had to fit the wheels and bearings BEFORE opening the frames to put the spacers in situ.  I can understand your frustration though Bertiedog at their methods.

 

Garry

[brian777999]

It must be a complicated business making the moulds for a white metal kit. How is it done ?

[Golden Fleece 30]

Here is a K's whitemetal TT gauge kit of the 61xx I bought recently. This really is poor compared to the Tri-ang versions and does not really look right being too short I think. I may try to convert it to a 45xx as it certainly is no good as it is but that might not be easy. I originally bought it thinking I would do it in BR lined green to go with the Tri-ang ones but that is not on the cards now.  This is one K's kit that is a let down for me after what I said about the 00 models.

 

Garry

[bertiedog]

To make a whitemetal kit in a nutshell......

 

The master parts are made in brass, bronze or nickel slver and or steel, The parts must resist heat so no soldering unless silver solder.

The size of the parts are adjusted to allow for shrinkage of the rubber mould and expansion of whitemetal on cooling, yes expansion.

 

Two types of mould are used, vulcanised rubber, and silicon rubber. K's used vulcanised,

 

The mould is round, with a centre hollow shaft,  arranged as a flat plate around the shaft.The various parts are arranged around the plate connected by a web of rods soldered to the parts.

 

The web is then connected  to the shaft, each part is bedded on the plate, and rubber is poured over the parts, then the mould is turned over, all bedding compound removed and the second half of the mould is poured.

 

modern silicon rubber can be peeled off straight away, but vulcanised needs baking at a high temperature to cure the rubber, before parting the moulds.

 

Backing plates are fitted to the moulds, and they can be assembled with the masters removed, leaving the hollow to be filled with whitemetal.

 

This is done on a centrifugal turntable, as it spins the molten metal is poured into the shaft space, where it is forced through the mould, venting through wires strategically attached the the masters.

 

The turn table is stopped and the mould broken open carefully to extract the cooling castings.

 

The skill is in placing the castings in the mould in the right positions so that the metal does not distort under the spin pressure.

 

For figures and small castings a piston impact mould can be used, a sprung piston is filled with molten metal and released under pressure into a stationary mould.

 

A lot of early model railway items were made in hot brass moulds with gravity fed molten metal, these are die cast and more accurate, but difficult to get right each time. Stewart Reidpath favoured this method.

 

The rubber mould process came from the souvenir industry, where zinc was cast to make toys and ornaments, but K's reduced the temperature of the process by using whitemetal alloy.

 

These days the moulds are silicon, and the metal is usually pewter, lead free.

 

Stephen.         gives an idea of the process, he is making cast figures.

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UEsvsK_dfJ0"frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited October 24, 2016 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

Regarding K's issues, they actually made the castings for Wrenn for their Streamlined Coronation loco.  From what I read in the Wrenn story most castings went back as poor quality hence the rareity of those locos, I think more than half were returned.  I will say this does not surprise me with this loco as I have seen in the last couple of years 2 brand new K's kits and the main body is awful.  It is so deformed narrowing in I would be scared of it breaking or deforming on top if it was opened up.  Suffice to say I did not buy either especially as I have new Hornby bodies on Dublo chassis's and a Jamieson brass/nickel one.

 

Garry

It would be impossible to fit a rubber cast body on to a diecast chassis.......the mouldings are far too variable from rubber, and this explains the Wrenn problem. K's would not have the experience to do it, DJH would have! The secret would have been much tougher moulds and reinforcing, and the use of pewter, not whitemetal with bismuth in it. I am amazed that Wrenn thought K's had the expertise to carry out the work.

Mind you DJH messed up a bit with the Coronation body in pewte, as they did it in O scale. a very large casting indeed. Many castings failed or warped.

[Horsetan]

....I am amazed that Wrenn thought K's had the expertise to carry out the work....

 

I'm not sure it was even a question of expertise.

 

Wrenn didn't seem to have much money to invest in new models built to a solid if increasingly obsolete specification. I can vaguely remember seeing flanged centre driving wheels quietly introduced only in the 1990s. After they took over the Hornby-Dublo engines and moulds, I can only remember Wrenn producing three new steam-outline engines after that - the original Light Pacific, the parallel-boilered Royal Scot, and the streamlined Coronation.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I am amazed that Wrenn thought K's had the expertise to carry out the work.

 

I think at the time only K's had the streamlined Coronation as a kit with DJH's coming later although I have no dates as and when.  If they were out at the same time Wrenn probably thought K's was the cheaper option, which I guess it was, and so went with that.

 

Garry

[Horsetan]

I think at the time only K's had the streamlined Coronation as a kit with DJH's coming later although I have no dates as and when. 

 

Mid-1990s for DJH, I think: the late Guy Williams built one in EM (with other refinements) for MRJ shortly after the kit was released.

[MarkC]

IMG_20161021_202123.jpg

One made many years ago

Nice I built one of those back in (whisper it quietly) 1977. Its first real duties were at a 4 day show, where it ran flawlessly for many hours, busily shunting the yard, just like the prototype. It's still operational today, 5 of 6 layouts later, although its running sessions are infrequent at present.