Level crossing stupidity...

[Wickham Green too]

AHA ! ..... that makes sense. Danke

[corneliuslundie]

"Signalling and points failures were also common [on the Cambrian Railways] and mishaps not attributed directly to worn or inadequate equipment were frequently caused by human error. Even today, mishaps can occur occasionally, although nowadays the majority are associated with the modern, ungated level-crossings where motorists, either through ignorance, carelessness or defiance, challenge the train on its 'home' territory. Few drivers of road vehicles have any notion of the braking distances required by trains and not all treat level-crossings with caution and respect."

"Rails through Talerddig" by Gryn Briwnant-Jones - published 34 years ago.

I have just this morning read these words. Plus ca change . . . 

Jonathan

[2E Sub Shed]

Another Darwin Award nearly collected in US by cyclist

 

 17th August Boone USA

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Another Darwin Award nearly collected in US by cyclist

 

 17th August Boone USA

 

... and consequently the train comes to a dead stand on the crossing for a quarter of an hour. Fortunately, it seems there's not much road traffic in Boone.

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... and consequently the train comes to a dead stand on the crossing for a quarter of an hour. Fortunately, it seems there's not much road traffic in Boone.

Meanwhile the cyclist goes home for a change of clothing! As long as was on the right side of the line.

[corneliuslundie]

Crossings in north Wales to close:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxl1wqrx5jo

No mention of involvement of the local authority.

Jonathan

[RJS1977]

On 11/08/2024 at 15:42, KingEdwardII said:

In a word: no.

 

They have to apply to the highway authority for suitable legal agreement before they put those services in, but once that is done, they have the right to maintain them. They do have to apply to dig up the road - hence all those notices you will find in your local paper - but rarely does such a request get refused, although the highway authority does have power of refusal.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

What highway authorities do of course insist on is that where two or more utilities companies want to carry on work on the same stretch of road, the second company will not be allowed to commence work until the first company have filled the hole in. 

 

Highways authorities will often also insist that no such work is carried out until the road has been resurfaced.

 

;-)

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

Highways authorities

The real genius of the highway authorities is to give approval to several different items of road works in the same district at the same time. Basically, any route you choose will have one or more sets of lights with long tailbacks. The ideal is when the tailbacks themselves meet at some important junction, thereby snarling that junction - and by implication the whole district is brought to a standstill.

 

Best of all is to give approval to works at the only entrance to somewhere really busy, like the local shopping centre with one or more major supermarkets. That guarantees the huge tailbacks that block other junctions.

 

We've had both of these situations happen in our local town over the last 3 months. For a while, it was much wiser to head out to a different town...

 

Yours, Mike.

[duncan]

Or send a major diversion down a narrow road while there are road works on it.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

What highway authorities do of course insist on is that where two or more utilities companies want to carry on work on the same stretch of road, the second company will not be allowed to commence work until the first company have filled the hole in. 

Highways authorities will often also insist that no such work is carried out until the road has been resurfaced.

 

;-)

In fact the opposite is the fact. Utility companies have to apply for permission from the highway authority before they dig up a road except in an emergency such as a water main burst.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

... Highways authorities will often also insist that no such work is carried out until the road has been resurfaced.

But if that's not possible, they'll insist that all pre-existing potholes are left undisturbed.

[Ben B]

Getting back to level crossings, and a bit of an oddity that exists where a level crossing has been removed locally...

 

 

This is Utley, outskirts of Keighley.  You can see where a level crossing existed- it seems to have been an occupation crossing, one of several on a short stretch that have been removed over the years.  There is still an active pedestrian crossing to the north (at least, it was still open the last time I was there).  What's interesting is that most trains still blast their horns repeatedly on this stretch, as if the multiple crossings were still open.  I don't know if there's still signage for drivers relating to these crossings, or if it was left in place because of the foot-crossing nearby.  I can only imagine the locals love the constant two-tones...

 

Does it happen much nationally, where crossings get closed or removed, but the railway still acts as if the crossing is open?  I can imagine there being an anticipated period where people used to using the crossings will trespass out of habit or sheer bloody-mindedness...

 

[96701]

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

Getting back to level crossings, and a bit of an oddity that exists where a level crossing has been removed locally...

 

Does it happen much nationally, where crossings get closed or removed, but the railway still acts as if the crossing is open?  I can imagine there being an anticipated period where people used to using the crossings will trespass out of habit or sheer bloody-mindedness...

 

Any crossings that are closed by NR are dealt with people who understand the legal obligations and therefore have to go through hoops to arrange the closure. When whoever is involved finally agrees to close it, it becomes legally closed on a particular date / time, so that is when the gates might be locked closed, or removed and fenced, but it takes time and planning to remove all the furniture. It is not possible to rock up and lift the decking and all the associated lineside signs, so a crossing can be closed without it being apparent. 

 

Obviously, removal of all the furniture is done as soon as possible, but since agreement for closure cannot be forecast, one cannot plan for removal of furniture. On some routes the planning window can be 13 weeks out, so the crossing looks to be open when looking from a passing train, and the Whistle boards (if there are any) might still be there for some time after the crossing is actually legally closed. Drivers have to obey Whistle boards during daylight hours (there are some with restrictions at night) so they'll keep on tooting.

[Hobby]

9 hours ago, Ben B said:

Getting back to level crossings, and a bit of an oddity that exists where a level crossing has been removed locally...

 

 

 

You should put that photo on one of the TT120 pages!

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, 96701 said:

Any crossings that are closed by NR are dealt with people who understand the legal obligations and therefore have to go through hoops to arrange the closure. When whoever is involved finally agrees to close it, it becomes legally closed on a particular date / time, so that is when the gates might be locked closed, or removed and fenced, but it takes time and planning to remove all the furniture. It is not possible to rock up and lift the decking and all the associated lineside signs, so a crossing can be closed without it being apparent. 

 

Obviously, removal of all the furniture is done as soon as possible, but since agreement for closure cannot be forecast, one cannot plan for removal of furniture. On some routes the planning window can be 13 weeks out, so the crossing looks to be open when looking from a passing train, and the Whistle boards (if there are any) might still be there for some time after the crossing is actually legally closed. Drivers have to obey Whistle boards during daylight hours (there are some with restrictions at night) so they'll keep on tooting.

Not many hoops with an occupation crossing as it only requires agreement with the landowner although that might involve provision of an alternative route at railway expense.  The same applies with an accommodation crossing although it might involve consultation with more than one person if the road/track leads to property owned by more than one person.  

 

Public, i.e. statutory, level crossings are a very different ball game while footpath and bridleway crossings are different again because of their different legal status.  

 

As far as Whistle boards are concerned it is simple - publish an Instruction that they are no longer to be observed and cover them up prior to removal.  There are incidentally crossings where there are Instructions that the train horn is not to be sounded unless the Driver considers that a collision might occur or there is some other risk to safety - we have one on our branch.  The branch also has two footpath crossings where there is no requirement (and seemingly never has been) to sound the train horn (whistle in the past)  although sounding the horn is, and always has been, compulsory at the only Occupation Crossing on the branch.

[johnofwessex]

Presumably drivers should also use their judgement as to when the horn needs to be sounded?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

Presumably drivers should also use their judgement as to when the horn needs to be sounded?

 

My elder son's first driving after passing his test was of golf carts. Apparently these are driven like automatics, with accelerator and brake pedals for the right foot, but an additional pedal in lieu of the clutch, operated by the left foots, sounds the horn. I should think that if one is used to driving a manual, this could get noisy quite quickly...

[96701]

12 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Presumably drivers should also use their judgement as to when the horn needs to be sounded?

Usually Whistle boards exist where sighting from the decision point (the position of the user when in a safe place needs to begin to enter a dangerous area on the crossing) is insufficient usually due to curves, so the driver cannot even see the crossing from the Whistle board, so discretion cannot be used. If it is found that there are vulnerable users regularly crossing, a Temporary Speed Restriction is applied.

[96701]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far as Whistle boards are concerned it is simple - publish an Instruction that they are no longer to be observed and cover them up prior to removal. 

There are many instances where workers are not allowed lineside whilst trains are running. A Planner will not allow somebody to wander down the railway just to cover a sign. So, they will plan for a line blockage (usually with additional protection), so the workers may as well remove the sign. Nothing is as simple as it used to be.

[Wickham Green too]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

... and cover them up prior to removal.  ...

Chances are they're already covered in graffiti so that would make little difference anyway.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, 96701 said:

There are many instances where workers are not allowed lineside whilst trains are running. A Planner will not allow somebody to wander down the railway just to cover a sign. So, they will plan for a line blockage (usually with additional protection), so the workers may as well remove the sign. Nothing is as simple as it used to be.

I've heard about this 'planner system' from an experienced railwayman - and got his views on it.  Leaves me wondering why people have to undergo training and qualification in lineside safety Rule and procedures when some remote, not necessarily similarly qualified, person is deciding what they can and can't do. (His words, not mine - but ... ....  )

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I've heard about this 'planner system' from an experienced railwayman - and got his views on it.  Leaves me wondering why people have to undergo training and qualification in lineside safety Rule and procedures when some remote, not necessarily similarly qualified, person is deciding what they can and can't do. (His words, not mine - but ... ....  )

Dumbing down to LCD. So you can appear to meet safety requirements and save money at the same time!

 

As any accident investigator should know, serious incidents are usually caused by a series of events, where rules weren't properly followed. Deliberately or accidentally, ultimately doesn't make any different to those affected adversely.

[DenysW]

18 hours ago, 96701 said:

There are many instances where workers are not allowed lineside whilst trains are running. A Planner will not allow somebody to wander down the railway just to cover a sign. So, they will plan for a line blockage (usually with additional protection), so the workers may as well remove the sign. Nothing is as simple as it used to be.

 

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I've heard about this 'planner system' from an experienced railwayman - and got his views on it.  Leaves me wondering why people have to undergo training and qualification in lineside safety Rule and procedures when some remote, not necessarily similarly qualified, person is deciding what they can and can't do. (His words, not mine - but ... ....  )

This feels like a modern system of risk management, although I may be 10 years out-of-date. Rule of thumb was that the least reliable way to avoid accidents is training, then PPE second worst.

 

So if you have something low priority (like removing a 'Whistle' sign) where you might have to send out the 'D' team, you give them heavy protection from their own (potential) sloppiness/ignorance/inexperience. If you need to keep the 'A' team busy as well and they get allocated to removing a 'Whistle' sign you are consistent - why take any risk with the team you really need when things get stressed, just for a low-priority job?

[dunwurken]

Wee problem way up north, barriers fail to lower.

 

[Hobby]

For the road users the flashing reds mean the same thing as the barriers, i.e. stop! Though no doubt some idiot will try to use it as an excuse.