Level crossing stupidity...

[Porkscratching]

Sorry but the thread's called "level crossing stupidity"...not " level crossing sympathy"...

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

My wife's comment was that as they were minors their parents had a duty of care. What were the girls doing out at all at this hour?

Re horns at night, is this not normally stopped at particular places because the locals have complained, and can therefore hardly get upset if the railway does as they ask.

Jonathan

That sort of logic will get you nowhere. 

[big jim]

1 hour ago, NittenDormer said:

I just hope none of the victim's family read this, they may get the impression that all train enthusiasts lack empathy. A little more decorum please.

 

I have empathy, but with those who had to deal with the aftermath of the incident not with those stupid enough to cause it in the first place 

[highpeakman]

On 26/04/2019 at 12:57, Coryton said:

.................

As life has become safer, attitude to the remaining risk has changed. Maybe that's not surprising.

 

I think there is an issue of "if you make everything too safe then people lose their fear or knowledge of danger". 

How safe is "too safe" though?

 

I was involved in Rallying during the 70s and I clearly remember the feeling of "being safe" inside a rally car that was fitted with a full roll cage and full harness seat belts - it did make you feel much safer but therefore also inclined to take more risks when driving on the basis that you were less likely to get hurt if something went wrong. With more protection there was less risk to be considered was the argument. When young we felt immortal - Now, having survived to a good age, my nerves jangle when I think back and I would be upset if young members of my family did similar things. There seems to be no logic to human behaviour perhaps.

 

Of course it goes without saying that many things must be made as safe as possible and I am not arguing for any reductions current in protection but I would argue that "self preservation" - awareness - safety should be strongly taught in schools. There should be much more emphasis on getting people to think for themselves although some do seem incapable of that for whatever reasons. I do not know how you really protect such people from themselves - sooner or later the odds will probably get them. I drove 20-30k miles a year round the UK for 30 years and have seen such unbelievable stupidity - I try to follow the Police teaching of "defensive" driving but still get frightened by others. I am convinced that people's behaviour, in general, is getting more selfish, inconsiderate and less aware.

 

I am from the generation that, as kids, spent all day away from the house and took many risks but I survived intact like most of my friends - one died falling from his bike in "quite mundane" circumstances. However the reality is that I did come close to serious disaster on a couple of occasions (as did my friends) so it is really a case of "as luck would have it" although we did have an awareness of danger that seems to be largely lacking now. We believed at the time that we were taking calculated risks - frightening to think back on - whereas nowadays it seems to be just risk taking without much thought or calculation.

 

The above may seem contradictory in some respects - but so is life - it changes and we change.

Edited April 28, 2019 by highpeakman

[Richard E]

8 hours ago, highpeakman said:

 

I think there is an issue of "if you make everything too safe then people lose their fear or knowledge of danger". 

How safe is "too safe" though?

 

I was involved in Rallying during the 70s and I clearly remember the feeling of "being safe" inside a rally car that was fitted with a full roll cage and full harness seat belts - it did make you feel much safer but therefore also inclined to take more risks when driving on the basis that you were less likely to get hurt if something went wrong. With more protection there was less risk to be considered was the argument. When young we felt immortal - Now, having survived to a good age, my nerves jangle when I think back and I would be upset if young members of my family did similar things. There seems to be no logic to human behaviour perhaps.

 

The above may seem contradictory in some respects - but so is life - it changes and we change.

I was involved in rallying in the 70's, mainly night events, and I am still now - I've just got back from marshalling on the Clacton Stages today. I drove on a night time 12 car a few weeks back and I'm doing a daylight historic rally in three weeks time.

 

I stopped competing on night events in 1980 solely down to one event running into daylight and both of us saying there and then that the risks were too great. Having said that I'd love to compete again but, at 66+, it is cost that is tending to stop me rather than risk. Yes, I think back, and I know that things we did then would be frowned upon now but the world has changed and so have the events I would now consider.

 

Bottom line? Some of us adhere to the philosophy of growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional, others don't ....

[Coryton]

20 hours ago, kevinlms said:

That sort of logic will get you nowhere. 

 

I think that sort of logic rightly gets you nowhere.

 

 

If some people in the area complain, it doesn't follow that everyone there agrees with horns not being sounded at night, or even is aware of it.

 

Though I believe in the UK this is a national rule, not (as in the US) agreed in certain locations.

 

[roythebus]

Maybe we should adopt the European (and everywhere else in the world) practice of removing fences from alongside railways and making the public responsible for their own safety. You walk on the railway, it's YOUR problem if you get hurt. Trains have the absolute right of way. In some EU countries if a motorist causes damage or delay by misuing a level crossing, he gets the billoff the railway company for the damage and delay. Easy.

 

However, this doesn't alleviate the pain and suffering caused to railway staff and emergency service people who have to clear up the resulting mess.

 

I contribute to a motoring forum and there's regular posts on there from drivers who have been caught jumping a level crossing red light and want sympathy or how they can get off the charge. I usually mention that trains don't take prisoners, the car nearly always comes off worse and so does the car driver.

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, roythebus said:

Maybe we should adopt the European (and everywhere else in the world) practice of removing fences from alongside railways and making the public responsible for their own safety. You walk on the railway, it's YOUR problem if you get hurt. Trains have the absolute right of way. In some EU countries if a motorist causes damage or delay by misuing a level crossing, he gets the billoff the railway company for the damage and delay. Easy.

 

However, this doesn't alleviate the pain and suffering caused to railway staff and emergency service people who have to clear up the resulting mess.

Most will still need to be fenced to keep livestock off, but I agree with the sentiment (and I find the spread of palisade fencing a contributory factor to finding my surroundings - and me -  getting ever-more depressing). But I've every sympathy for the staff.

 

Quote

I contribute to a motoring forum and there's regular posts on there from drivers who have been caught jumping a level crossing red light and want sympathy or how they can get off the charge. I usually mention that trains don't take prisoners, the car nearly always comes off worse and so does the car driver.

That's the problem we need to tackle - that attitude. It's a much harder one to solve than simply chucking more and more barriers everywhere but even making some headway on it is something I'd regard as meaningful progress. As I mentioned earlier dealing with it needs to start young, because it's all about general attitudes to the world and life in general than level crossings specifically.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Reorte

[TheQ]

In a similar vein to the sueing of the railway company for the children sitting in front of a train.

 

 A Norfolk Broads Hire boat company is being sued for the loss of holiday while the boat was being repaired. The hole in the boat being caused by those that are sueing!!!

[PhilJ W]

1 minute ago, TheQ said:

In a similar vein to the sueing of the railway company for the children sitting in front of a train.

 

 A Norfolk Broads Hire boat company is being sued for the loss of holiday while the boat was being repaired. The hole in the boat being caused by those that are sueing!!!

You couldn't make it up!

[Coryton]

45 minutes ago, TheQ said:

 A Norfolk Broads Hire boat company is being sued for the loss of holiday while the boat was being repaired. The hole in the boat being caused by those that are sueing!!!

 

There's often more to these stories than the "headline" summary.

 

For example they might have a point if they were claiming that whatever they did to the boat wouldn't have happened if they'd had the full tuition in boat handling they were led to believe would be provided, rather than a rushed demonstration of the controls before being turned loose to figure out the rest as they went along.

[Mark Saunders]

1 minute ago, Coryton said:

 

There's often more to these stories than the "headline" summary.

 

For example they might have a point if they were claiming that whatever they did to the boat wouldn't have happened if they'd had the full tuition in boat handling they were led to believe would be provided, rather than a rushed demonstration of the controls before being turned loose to figure out the rest as they went along.

 

Would they have been prepared to pay for their "Boat Proficiency Test" prior to starting as schools now charge for the "Cycling Proficiency Test".

[Bernard Lamb]

Quote

 

It seems that the problem is not limited to the UK.

I was talking to a chap from Albuquerque at the weekend.

A new line opened around ten years ago to Santa Fe.

This is a commuter service to take traffic from the main road.

Passenger numbers built up in the first few years but are now in decline.

The accident rate on level crossings, in particular in rural areas is alarming.

Part of the problem is that the locals, if they have ever seen a train at all, have only ever seen a slow moving freight and the concept of rapid passenger trains is a step too far for them.

Hence the number of road vehicles and individual people that have been hit.

Bernard

[Porkscratching]

Purely out of interest, do they have barriers at all in the US?

On all the tv films you see, it's a dirt track simply crossing the rails with maybe an old  X sign before it..

[Coryton]

4 minutes ago, Porkscratching said:

Purely out of interest, do they have barriers at all in the US?

 

They certainly do.

 

Including an interesting arrangement near San Francisco where trains run along the street and when a train comes along, barriers close off side roads  but road traffic continues alongside/in the opposite direction to the train. Or at least it was like that when I was there some years ago.

 

 

[newbryford]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It seems that the problem is not limited to the UK.

I was talking to a chap from Albuquerque at the weekend.

A new line opened around ten years ago to Santa Fe.

This is a commuter service to take traffic from the main road.

Passenger numbers built up in the first few years but are now in decline.

The accident rate on level crossings, in particular in rural areas is alarming.

Part of the problem is that the locals, if they have ever seen a train at all, have only ever seen a slow moving freight and the concept of rapid passenger trains is a step too far for them.

Hence the number of road vehicles and individual people that have been hit.

Bernard

 

In a similar vein, the Brightline service which uses FEC freight trackage from West Palm Beach to Miami "killed" three people in the first week of it's operation in early 2018 and there were calls to close it down...…….

 

This is what they have to deal with

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by newbryford

[Hroth]

24 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

There's often more to these stories than the "headline" summary.

 

For example they might have a point if they were claiming that whatever they did to the boat wouldn't have happened if they'd had the full tuition in boat handling they were led to believe would be provided, rather than a rushed demonstration of the controls before being turned loose to figure out the rest as they went along.

 

They didn't get "full tuition in boat handling", eh?

 

An interesting concept!  I've not seen the article (A link perhaps?), but the problem with boat hire is that the hire company only has a limited amount of time and staff to get a number of boats out on changeover day.  To properly train someone in  boat handling would take at least half a day of uninterrupted attention from an individual member of staff, depending on where the hirer intended to go, but even "pottering" about the Bure as far as the Ant requires a fair amount of boat handling skill and people think that if they can drive a car they can drive a boat...  Driving a boat is worse than driving a car on a skidpan with worn tyres, its worse than black ice!

 

Speed and anticipation is not in everyones road driving vocabulary and they get out of most sticky situations by stamping on the brakes, something that a boat oddly lacks, and even slamming a boat into reverse brings its own problems....

 

I'd bet that as well as having the controls demonstrated, the hire company representative also gave verbal advice (in one ear, etc) and reminded the hirers that the boat handbook contained advice about how to use the boat.    Oh well.

 

btw I've only been on the Broads once, a long time ago, but its pretty similar on the Canal system.  At least canal hire boats are made from steel, rather than fibreglass so don't get holed, but I've witnessed the semi-lethal antics that hirers get up to and its best to be a days travel clear of any hire-boat base on changeover day!

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I once had to drop the paddles on the lock at Stratford. The people in the hireboat had completely failed to notice that they had jammed the bow of the boat under a crossmember of the lockgate and, water was pouring into the boat. About 20 seconds later and they would have sunk completely and very quickly.

[TheQ]

44 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

They didn't get "full tuition in boat handling", eh?

 

An interesting concept!  I've not seen the article (A link perhaps?), but the problem with boat hire is that the hire company only has a limited amount of time and staff to get a number of boats out on changeover day.  To properly train someone in  boat handling would take at least half a day of uninterrupted attention from an individual member of staff, depending on where the hirer intended to go, but even "pottering" about the Bure as far as the Ant requires a fair amount of boat handling skill and people think that if they can drive a car they can drive a boat...  Driving a boat is worse than driving a car on a skidpan with worn tyres, its worse than black ice!

 

Speed and anticipation is not in everyones road driving vocabulary and they get out of most sticky situations by stamping on the brakes, something that a boat oddly lacks, and even slamming a boat into reverse brings its own problems....

 

I'd bet that as well as having the controls demonstrated, the hire company representative also gave verbal advice (in one ear, etc) and reminded the hirers that the boat handbook contained advice about how to use the boat.    Oh well.

 

btw I've only been on the Broads once, a long time ago, but its pretty similar on the Canal system.  At least canal hire boats are made from steel, rather than fibreglass so don't get holed, but I've witnessed the semi-lethal antics that hirers get up to and its best to be a days travel clear of any hire-boat base on changeover day!

 

You forgot the rear wheel steering effect, the lack of interest by the Punters in the intructions, and the amount of alcohol many consume..

Hence I've just put this advice out, and most of those who will read it are the responsible ones..

https://forum.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/topic/16736-navigating-the-northern-rivers-1st-2nd-june-2019/

[royaloak]

On 26/03/2019 at 13:04, caradoc said:

 

This people involved in this incident were actually children and it is the responsibility of adults to protect them, as far as is possible, from their immaturity, ignorance and stupidity. DB have been found guilty by a court of law of failing to do that.

 

What if they had decided to go for a walk on a nearby motorway (which are not fenced off) and got hit by a 44 tonne lorry, who would be at fault then?

 

The FACT the railway was fenced off (even if the locals had made holes in it) should have been enough to tell even the thickest of individuals they are not allowed in there, but this is 'great' Britain isnt it where the laws are there to protect the stupid and make their breaking of trespass laws somebody elses fault.

 

Yes I know what the law states but it doesnt mean that I, or any other sensible thinking person, agrees with them!

[Reorte]

26 minutes ago, royaloak said:

What if they had decided to go for a walk on a nearby motorway (which are not fenced off) and got hit by a 44 tonne lorry, who would be at fault then?

 

The FACT the railway was fenced off (even if the locals had made holes in it) should have been enough to tell even the thickest of individuals they are not allowed in there, but this is 'great' Britain isnt it where the laws are there to protect the stupid and make their breaking of trespass laws somebody elses fault.

 

Yes I know what the law states but it doesnt mean that I, or any other sensible thinking person, agrees with them!

Sorry to be pedantic because I agree with the sentiment but motorways are fenced, albeit not with high security fencing, although it will always be possible to gain access via a slip road. Although whether it's by law or by practicality I don't know. Unfortunately the response to your point from some quarters would be that motorways should be more heavily fenced.

[royaloak]

11 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Sorry to be pedantic because I agree with the sentiment but motorways are fenced, albeit not with high security fencing, although it will always be possible to gain access via a slip road. Although whether it's by law or by practicality I don't know. Unfortunately the response to your point from some quarters would be that motorways should be more heavily fenced.

Sorry to upset you Mr Pedantic (I guessed you would have to reply) but motorways are not fenced, they are barriered, the barriers are to prevent out of control vehicles leaving the carriageway, they are in no way to prevent pedestrian access to the motorway which is what an item called a fence would be used for..

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I once had to drop the paddles on the lock at Stratford. The people in the hireboat had completely failed to notice that they had jammed the bow of the boat under a crossmember of the lockgate and, water was pouring into the boat. About 20 seconds later and they would have sunk completely and very quickly.

 

They were lucky you were on hand!

 

There have been a number of fatal incidents where a boat has either got caught under a lock gate going up or caught on the cill going down, both cases causing catastrophic flooding over the bows.

 

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

You forgot the rear wheel steering effect, the lack of interest by the Punters in the intructions, and the amount of alcohol many consume..

 

Once you start getting into a list of problems its difficult to know when to stop!  It is amazing how many cases of lager some people think essential to take with them!

 

 

Of course the problems on the Broads caused by careless hirers is nothing new, The Hullabaloos in Arthur Ransomes "Coot Club" displayed all the vices of the ignorant hirer, eventually holing their boat on a navigation pile on Breydon Water through an illadvised manoeuver...

 

Of course, this has nothing to do with idiots attempting conclusions with trains on level crossings, though I suppose it does illustrate that the mindset is very widespread!

 

 

 

 

[royaloak]

17 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

I think that sort of logic rightly gets you nowhere.

 

 

If some people in the area complain, it doesn't follow that everyone there agrees with horns not being sounded at night, or even is aware of it.

 

Though I believe in the UK this is a national rule, not (as in the US) agreed in certain locations.

 

Da rools state no horn use between 00:01 and 06:00 unless absolutely necessary, such as seeing people on the line, unfortunately, if the train is moving at high speed,  by the time a driver has seen them and sounded the horn the train will be on top of them.

[Richard E]

18 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Sorry to upset you Mr Pedantic (I guessed you would have to reply) but motorways are not fenced, they are barriered, the barriers are to prevent out of control vehicles leaving the carriageway, they are in no way to prevent pedestrian access to the motorway which is what an item called a fence would be used for..

Motorways in the UK are not required to be fenced, in law, unlike railways. Any fencing is down to the adjacent landowner and as such we can see anything from post and wire through to acoustic barriers if required by the local authority.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Richard E