Level crossing stupidity...

[Coryton]

I can understand that people might feel a bit daft standing a white line waiting for the barriers to drop when the siren starts, but given that there is a footbridge right next to the crossing then they don't actually need to do that, they can cross safely anyway.  Most of them seemed perfectly able-bodied so it really just comes down to pig-headed laziness.

 

As 96701 says, a couple of lifts to enable those of restricted mobility to use the elevated crossing and not only is the risk to pedestrians permanently eliminated, but they can get some useful extra exercise as well!

 

In which case I hope they won't use the sort of lift they use in stations that can be out of action for months waiting for repairs. I think if I lived there and couldn't use the footbridge I'd be somewhat nervous about that.

 

What they need is someone there with a whistle to yell at people.

[PhilJ W]

Looking at the still picture there is an entry ramp for a car park over the shops. The car park is almost certainly part of the shopping complex and is at a level where a walkway could be installed above the tracks. Most such car parks have several points of access with lifts and as in my local shopping centre the pedestrian areas can be separated by barriers.

[The Stationmaster]

Its Poole in Dorset.

 

It has long been like that - complete with a pedestrian footbridge right next to it which has also been there for a very long time.  Trouble is that it's right in the middle of the shopping centre and on the main pedestrian route from one end of the town to the other.  The problem with providing any sort of alternative is that on three sides existing buildings come right up to the railway boundary so there is no room to build a ramped footbridge unless it is put in the middle of the pedestrian precinct area and there is nowhere to build lift towers adjacent to the existing crossing.

 

I reckon if there was a simple and reasonably economical solution we'd have seen it long before now.

[Coryton]

It has long been like that - complete with a pedestrian footbridge right next to it which has also been there for a very long time.  Trouble is that it's right in the middle of the shopping centre and on the main pedestrian route from one end of the town to the other.  The problem with providing any sort of alternative is that on three sides existing buildings come right up to the railway boundary so there is no room to build a ramped footbridge unless it is put in the middle of the pedestrian precinct area and there is nowhere to build lift towers adjacent to the existing crossing.

 

I reckon if there was a simple and reasonably economical solution we'd have seen it long before now.

 

The simplest solution ought to be for people to not start to cross when the sounders start....

 

As for a footbridge with lifts, while it's the right solution from a level crossing safety point of view, there is a big psychological difference between a wide pedestrianised street that happens to cross a railway line and one that's split in two by a much narrower footbridge.

 

I could quite imagine shops losing out if it happened (or perhaps blaming it for losses in sales that have got nothing to do with it...)

[martin_wynne]

I reckon if there was a simple and reasonably economical solution we'd have seen it long before now.

 

Old-fashioned level-crossing gates might help?

 

Martin.

[96701]

Close it and install permanent fences with hedges in front of them and a nice little garden with places to sit.

[beast66606]

Near miss at Magdalen Road

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-142017-magdalen-road-level-crossing/near-miss-at-magdalen-road-level-crossing-9-august-2017

[The Stationmaster]

Near miss at Magdalen Road

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safety-digest-142017-magdalen-road-level-crossing/near-miss-at-magdalen-road-level-crossing-9-august-2017

 

Interesting that there's no comment on the signalling.  In the Down direction each level crossing is separately protected by a signal - albeit one is in rear of Magdalen Road platform - whereas in the Up direction a single signal protects both level crossings.  ths in the Up direction in a signal failure the Signalman has far more to think about and will inevitably concentrate on the facing point if he's doing his job properly.   A trap was duly set and he walked right onto it.

[ejstubbs]

It's good that he was done for it, but I suspect his only actual offences were crossing after the red stop lights had been displayed and crossing the (continuous) white line. You could argue that by continuing to cross and not stopping on the crossing, he didn't actually obstruct it, but its a fine point. Nonetheless, he shouldn't have started across in the first place.

 

Jim

 

Apologies for resurrecting an incident noted previously, but I thought it worth linking to this report of the successful prosecution.

 

...he drove over the crossing despite the warnings and, as a result, the barriers became trapped between the driver’s cab and the trailer.

 

The train tracks were then obstructed by his vehicle.

 

Hristov, of Lincolnshire, jumped out of his cab and then walked around the vehicle for three minutes, but failed to alert the emergency services to a potentially impending disaster.

 

So he did stop on the crossing, which was why he quite rightly got done for the obstruction.

 

I am, however, disappointed to see the wig-wag lights referred to in the article as "warning lights".  They are STOP lights.

Edited October 25, 2017 by ejstubbs

[martin_wynne]

Interesting reference to the drawbacks of axle counters in this RAIB news item today:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/serious-signalling-irregularity-at-cardiff-east-junction

 

Martin.

 

RAIB report published today: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655196/R152017_171030_Cardiff_East_Junction.pdf

 

From the press release:

Simon French, Chief Inspector of Rail Accidents said:

This alarming incident, in which a train came close to travelling down a track that would have put it on an unprotected collision course with other trains, serves as a timely reminder of how easily things can go wrong when railway infrastructure is being upgraded and renewed.

 

Martin.

Edited October 30, 2017 by martin_wynne

[highpeakman]

http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/lincoln-news/level-crossing-barrier-lincoln-malfunctions-695354

 

 

Similar problem to that mentioned above. A crossing right next to the station on a busy City High Street which is now pedestrian only - high risk.

 

This is Lincoln High Street. This section is now pedestrian only but work is taking place to pave the area so that concentrates people because of the fenced off areas of work. 

 

Local press reports a "malfunction" on the barriers - actually, fairly obviously, what happened is that the signalman watching the crossing held the barriers from closing to allow the crowd to clear the crossing. They also report rail engineering work on the crossing but I think, while I have not been there for a few days, that the work is actually part of the pedestrianisation work on the road. One wonders if the "reporters" actually know anything about the town at all.

 

All of this is made much worse by the fact that the brand new footbridge, which was built less than a year ago by NR, is now closed again for several months to allow "major alteration" to the stairs and other work. (Actually, maybe that is the "Rail Engineering work" they reported).

Edited October 30, 2017 by highpeakman

[Banger Blue]

Not according to Stanley Jenkins, from whose book on the Fairford branch I got the information.  He says that"when the airfield facilities were extended south of the railway, two essential taxiways had to cross the running lines by means of level crossings; huge gates were necessary to span these wide taxiways".  There were also special signalling links between the airfield control tower and Bampton Signal box.  I am not sure when these taxiways were built, post 1945 I believe.

 

 

The airfield was extended during the life of the branch, its mentioned in the Brize Norton / Carterton pages on Martin Loaders website (see link in post#2250)

It's also mentioned about USAF jets having to cross the operational Railway from their dispersal pads in Harold Gasson's book 'Signalling Days' (chapter 5, page 88)

I've never heard mention about the huge gates before, none of the above mentions them at all but it would make sense, especially given the Americans propensity for 'High Security'.

Whilst browsing through Adrian Vaughan’s “Heart of the Great Western” after looking for info to answer another question posed in another thread, I found the following info about the taxiway gates:

 

There was a Gatemans hut provided and the gates were locked by an Annetts Key.

When a plane wished to cross the Railway, the Gateman would ask the Brize Norton & Brampton Signalman for release, who would reverse the #4 lever which electrically released an Annetts Key. The Gateman then used this to unlock a second Annetts Key which unlocked the taxiway gates.

[talisman56]

 

 

Whilst browsing through Adrian Vaughan’s “Heart of the Great Western” after looking for info to answer another question posed in another thread, I found the following info about the taxiway gates:

 

There was a Gatemans hut provided and the gates were locked by an Annetts Key.

When a plane wished to cross the Railway, the Gateman would ask the Brize Norton & Brampton Signalman for release, who would reverse the #4 lever which electrically released an Annetts Key. The Gateman then used this to unlock a second Annetts Key which unlocked the taxiway gates.

 

Which raises the question of why the first Annetts Key (the one electrically released by the bobby) couldn't unlock the taxiway gates. Seems a bit over-complicated to me...

[martin_wynne]

Is this POGO equipment released by the signaller? If the gates open when you press the button, would a reasonable user assume it is safe to cross? I think I would.

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-at-frognal-farm-user-worked-level-crossing

 

Martin.

[St. Simon]

Is this POGO equipment released by the signaller? If the gates open when you press the button, would a reasonable user assume it is safe to cross? I think I would.

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-at-frognal-farm-user-worked-level-crossing

 

Martin.

 

No, POGO equipment (or at least the ones I've seen) aren't interlocked with the signalling system, that would be too much added expense and complication to such a basic crossing, but they are normally associated with an MSL system, thus giving a visual indication of whether it is safe or not to cross, but they don't have to be

 

The instruction is to phone the signaller before opening the gates if you have a vehicle, simple instruction, if you go across the crossing without following the instructions, then you break railway bylaws, simple as. People should NEVER assume that it is safe to cross the railway, always assume it is not safe to cross until proved otherwise.

 

Simon

Edited November 13, 2017 by St. Simon

[royaloak]

Is this POGO equipment released by the signaller? If the gates open when you press the button, would a reasonable user assume it is safe to cross? I think I would.

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-at-frognal-farm-user-worked-level-crossing

 

Martin.

RAIB think the signage is inadequate but RSSB must have signed it off as safe?

[royaloak]

No, POGO equipment (or at least the ones I've seen) aren't interlocked with the signalling system, that would great too much added expense and complication to such a basic crossing, but they are normally associated with an MSL system, thus giving a visual indication of whether it is safe or not to cross, but they don't have to be

 

The instruction is to phone the signaller before opening the gates if you have a vehicle, simple instruction, if you go across the crossing without following the instructions, then you break railway bylaws, simple as. People should NEVER assume that it is safe to cross the railway, always assume it is not safe to cross until proved otherwise.

 

Simon

Except when you ignore all the signs and basic rules, assume that if the gate opens its okay to cross, drive onto the railway, get hit by a train and its still the railways fault because the sign (somehow) isnt clear, as in this case.

[martin_wynne]

It is surely an unsatisfactory situation where the gates can power open when it is not safe to cross, regardless of what is or isn't on the sign.

 

I can't think of any other situation where powered gates or doors open, but it is not safe to go. Just imagine if train doors opened just by pressing the button, regardless of whether the train was stationary at a platform. Or lift doors opening onto an empty lift shaft. Users of level crossings are not steeped in railway operating procedure, they arrive at the crossing with common experience of the rest of the world.

 

On the other hand, the physical act of opening the gates yourself concentrates the mind wonderfully.

 

Martin.

[big jim]

How about putting the gates open button behind the telephone handset so you have to lift it up to operate the gates, if the person picks it up and doesn’t speak to the signaller then he should know which crossing has had it’s phone picked up and he could then advise trains by gsm-r to proceed at caution at that crossing

[St. Simon]

It is surely an unsatisfactory situation where the gates can power open when it is not safe to cross, regardless of what is or isn't on the sign.

 

I can't think of any other situation where powered gates or doors open, but it is not safe to go. Just imagine if train doors opened just by pressing the button, regardless of whether the train was stationary at a platform. Or lift doors opening onto an empty lift shaft. Users of level crossings are not steeped in railway operating procedure, they arrive at the crossing with common experience of the rest of the world.

 

On the other hand, the physical act of opening the gates yourself concentrates the mind wonderfully.

 

Martin.

 

I've seen plenty of doors leading from buildings directly into car parks, onto loading bays etc. where the doors are powered open, but it is not safe to proceed. Most Railway Depot Doors are powered open, but it doesn't mean it is safe for the train to drive through them.

 

Instructions on use are everywhere, if people fail to read them, then it is their problem.

 

Simon

[big jim]

Noticed you liked my post Simon, now if I see you win a design/safety award next year for something similar I’ll be coming after you for the prize money!!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Its Poole in Dorset.

Surely it would be easy enough for the default position to be gates closed and only opened when a disabled person or emergency vehicle needs to cross.

[Budgie]

How about putting the gates open button behind the telephone handset so you have to lift it up to operate the gates, if the person picks it up and doesn’t speak to the signaller then he should know which crossing has had it’s phone picked up and he could then advise trains by gsm-r to proceed at caution at that crossing

How about locking the gates-open button and have the signalman release it when he has given permission for the user to cross?

[Dagworth]

How about locking the gates-open button and have the signalman release it when he has given permission for the user to cross?

In this "internet of things" day and age when you have a phone line from the crossing to the box and you have power at the crossing to operate the barriers, is it really that much more expensive when everything is taken into consideration, to have the signalman operate the barriers?

 

Andi

[Hroth]

In this "internet of things" day and age when you have a phone line from the crossing to the box and you have power at the crossing to operate the barriers, is it really that much more expensive when everything is taken into consideration, to have the signalman operate the barriers?

 

Andi

Eeep!  I wouldn't want anything safety critical like barrier gates to be visible on "The Internet of Things"!

 

Imagine some plonker getting into the system and raising the barriers as a train approaches?  The railway system is reduced to allowing software that is possibly inadequately/incorrectly specified and imperfectly implemented to control vital infrastructure without any guarantee that it can't be penetrated by malicious idiots.

 

Its best to have a chap in a box, with a great big capstan wheel to control the gates.  Then we'd know who to blame when things go wrong...