Level crossing stupidity...

[Titan]

Being pedantic for a second - 3000 deaths? Now I've had chance to look that up it's been under 1800 since 2012, after passing through the 3000 mark around 2007, although the dropping trend has plateaued in the 1700s...

 

From the government figures the year to Q3 2015 figure appears to be 1780, down from a peak of just under 8000 in 1966...

 

Ref the Clarkson stunt - personally I reckon no amount of somebody being serious and po-faced would have made the point that the images do...

 

 

 

And if you remove pedestrians, cyclists etc and only consider car occupants, the death toll goes down further to around 800 per year...

[Budgie]

If you go back and read my post 1225 you'll see Rule 291 from the Highway code which covers this. Or even better, go and read the Highway code. Perhaps we should be asking for a re-testing every five years of all road users, just to make sure everyone is keeping up with their competencies!

That would be good for keeping unemployment rates down.

[The Stationmaster]

without wanting to cause any offence here, some rules are clear and some are not.

For instance, just assuming the poster has written all the rules and not omitted any by accident.

 

It does state....you must stop behind the white line....correct

Keep going if you have passed the white line.....

But it doesn't say anything about making sure you can exit.....so a little grey area.

 

Also probably a rule needs to be written about what to do if you are caught in that situation, as if you have passed the white line but can not clear the crossing most people will panic as the driver did in the video.

There was no yellow box.

 

Perhaps network rail could advise what to do in such cases as this is certainly not the first case and have involved most types of road users.

 

But it does have to be asked why the signaller who could see that the crossing was not clear lowered the barriers.

Surely if had set the lights going he had control of the barriers to lower them once the crossing was clear.

As long as the lights were showing that would stop new traffic entering the crossing and it would only take a while for the obstruction to exit the crossing.

 

having watched the video it is clear the video is not all it seems as it has been edited to show the worst and not all that led up to the incident.

 

One poster said that public information films seemed to be none existant...he is correct.

That was one way we all learned...Tuffty...Green cross code and even clunk click...things that still stick in my mind.

 

Just on a light note... when the barriers were first installed here my friend who worked nearby noted a man who put his dog lead on the barrier red light.

Of course the barrier went up taking his small dog with it...at the time they were large barriers and not half type as they are now. 

 

Absolutely none of which excuses the stupidity/ignorance of that woman driver in that film

 

Firstly - if she knew and understood the Highway Code (Rule 291) she wouldn't even have been in that position on the level crossing and what we saw would never have happened;  I hope that is what the Police will be investigating.

 

Secondly the lowering of the barriers is really irrelevant - if road users complied with the Rules contained in the Highway Code there would not be any vehicles on the crossing when the barriers lower  (and in any case some (most?) full barrier installations will cease lowering if they contact an obstruction.

 

Assuming the Signalman/ler is doing his job properly he/she will check the crossing is clear before pressing the Crossing Clear button which releases the signal controls.  I can of course understand that a motorist who hasn't got a clue what he/she is doing might well tar other people with the same brush - but they shouldn't as such shortcomings on the part of railway staff controlling level crossings are extremely rare.

 

The basic problem at level crossings is ignorance/stupidity/bravado on the part of road users - some of that could indeed be tackled by public information films however poster and leaflet campaigns used to be quite common in the vicinity of crossings being automated and might be a good idea in areas of persistent abuse (a few court cases and prosecutions also work wonders).  the best answer of course is to close the crossing but generally the motorists and local tax payers seem to be rather averse to that idea as it can affect journey times and/or cost them money.

[Glorious NSE]

We may know that in this case there is virtually zero chance of a collision occurring (in this instance anyhow) - but she's not likely to have known that - which I expect explains what looks to be blind panic, virtually to the extent of being unable to control the vehicle at all...

Probably a good idea on balance if road users don't start assuming there is no safety problem though!

 

[uax6]

Had an muppet at the gates yesterday. I had already got one gate across the road (so the road was blocked), but that didn't stop said muppet floor his 'boy racered' motor so that he was doing I would guess 50mph (in a 30) while I was swinging the second gate. I'm not sure what he thought I was going to do, as I certainly wasn't going to open two gates for him...

 

He then turned round and wheelspun away, to go under the underpass.... Why didn't he just go that way to start with?

 

But interestingly I have noticed that there is a distinct lack of concentration by lots of motorists, there is a 1/4mile of road from a corner to the gates, with, halfway along the entrance to the underpass, and the amount of drivers that don't clock that I've already got one gate over the road, after they have passed the turning to the underpass is frightening...

 

Andy G

[LNERGE]

Considering what we have done next door at Downham i found the public completely trouble free for 9 days without barriers etc. My only encounter was one fifty something lady who wanted to know why she couldn't make her own mind up and just nip across. I had no need to provide an answer as the empty sand showed up right on Cue at about 60mph. No further comment required.

Edited March 21, 2016 by LNERGE

[kevinlms]

I note that the survey doesn't include among its list of "distractions" - "hoping that the barriers come down and that a train is coming, preferably with an interesting loco on the front".

But those people, far from jumping the barriers, are more likely to stop & see what comes along!

[kevinlms]

My apologies - however, we all know the rules are basically the same - do not enter unless your exit is clear. Quoted back in post#1199

 

My local full barrier CCTV controlled crossing doesn't have a yellow box either.

 

This van has been there on regular occasions and despite it's proximity and visibility to the crossing users, it still manages to catch a few offenders.

 

crossing van.jpg

 

Cheers,

Mick

Sneaky devils! Creeping up behind people with a hidden camera - Smile!

[Mod3]

This topic is about level crossings not grammar or spelling - stick to the subject please, we do not want to either upset people or cause an irrelevant argument / discussion.

[Gary H]

IMO one of the biggest problems a lot of motorists have  these days is a severe lack of forward thinking and forward planning.

I would bet that the lady in Lincoln drove onto the crossing not taking into account of the fact that the barriers may come down, there was also probably a complete  lack of situational awareness. (aka cloud cuckoo land driving) until it became apparent that the barrier was about to hit her car.

Hazard perception (linked to the above ofcourse) is another basic quality severely lacking with some drivers in my observations these days unfortunately.

[highpeakman]

What the video does not show is that just after the crossing is a turn into a car park.

All you need is 1 car to make a late indication and stop, and the woman would have no chance to stop prior to the crossing.

Whilst of course i can see this should not happen Lincoln must have the most crossings on its main roads of any city in the country.

Frequently barriers come down for many minutes and then rise only to come down again after just letting a handful of cars through.

I remember an incident reported somewhere near Taunton where an old man drove around half barriers.

At the court case i think network rail said he would have only had 30 seconds to wait for the train to clear.

In Lincoln the barriers go down for many minutes and cause major hold ups with no alternatives for road users.

I can remember when we had signal boxes with signal men and the hold ups were far less than this automated system.

The only solution is to put bridges over or under the railway, but in this location the river level means it would have to be over.

But no one wants to pay for it and it would seem not even for some yellow paint box markings on this crossing.

I was almost caught out today on the next crossing to this one as I was following 2 buses and could not see that the first had stopped,

The second then stopped and I was left on the edge of the crossing.

As I sat there held up by road works, not just 1 set of roadworks but 2 including 1 of I assume network rail, the barriers came down.

Luckily I only have a small car and could get clear.

I would not have been there at all had I not been diverted by another set of roadworks.

 

The moral to this story is do not come to Lincoln and avoid it like the plague.....unless of course your a traffic jam enthusiast.

 

There are two more very busy crossings in Lincoln which cut the busy feed in roads from the ring road to the south of the city - Skellingthorpe Road and Doddington Road. At certain times of the day they can cause significant hold ups with traffic queuing back far enough to block sets of traffic lights on another busy road out of the city to the south (Tritton Road). There are also more sets of lights to the north of each of these crossings which can back up to cause a problem on the crossings unless people make sure the crossing exits are clear. I use these crossings on a regular basis and find that the vast majority of people driving over the crossing will slow on the approach and hesitate to enter the crossing box until they can clearly see that the exit it is clear. Of course it is not the majority who are the concern!

 

I think that these two crossings cause far more congestion than the two in the city centre as it is not really that difficult to avoid the city centre ones. The main city centre one would be impossible to bridge (for traffic) and, anyway, that road will be closed during future development with a new pedestrian bridge already being built. Bridging those other roads would be nice but very unlikely. The cost would be very high indeed as the surrounding land has housing or industry using all the land on either side of each crossing.

 

As one who lived about 40 miles north of London for most of my life and had a career as a salesman, driving all over the UK and abroad, I can say that, in spite of the traffic problems caused by the crossings in Lincoln, there are many worse places to drive and live in. I like Lincoln and consider that it is not a place to avoid because of the crossings or any other reason.

Edited March 21, 2016 by highpeakman

[scouser]

So we know you've never, ever made a mistake behind the wheel then?

 

That number has come down drastically over the years.

 

Has it done that because we call people names?

 

Has it done that because we've drastically increased the number of police out there 'punishing' people?

 

Has it done that because our roads are so much quieter than they were?

 

Or has it done that because lots of work has gone into trying to design roads with fewer risks and cars that are less likely to kill when something does inevitably go wrong...

 

Such namby pamby pandering I'd humbly suggest is what has made a huge difference to bringing those figures down.

 

Reply - Ok I will hold my hands up and admit to making stupid mistakes, that does not absolve me from my responsibility for these actions, but I have learned from them and try really hard not to repeat them.

Neither do I blatantly act stupidly as for instance using a phone!

And which roads are being designed safer?

 Not the ection of the M6 by Stoke that even the police and engineers can't get their heads around. This told to me by  traffic policeman.

 

Regarding numbers, again do you think that reduction to this level is good? Tell me do you drive and do you use your phone?

Deaths are down because a lot of accidents now produce injuries instead because of the construction of vehicles.

Bur believe me if you had been on the M40 last week driving the car that some maniac is a truck decide to tailgate, the safest car in the world would not have saved you.

One probable reduction in fatalities in my experience is the reduced speed encountered these days. A recent trip from London to Shrewsbury showed an average speed of 43 MPH

Namby pamby that driver? I think not!

So, death is the extreme outcome, believe me getting our spleen shattered may leave you alive but the rest of your life is blighted, like the chap I used to work with who got hit by someone overtaking on a blind bend.

These are not politically correctness issues here they are are people lives!

Mine, yours those we love!!

 

Does shouting at people help? Yes it does, the stupid actions of any of us are better corrected when someone points it out. Talk to kids actions they feel, grounding removal of goodies, not beating them up. A talking to, any honest kid will tell you that is getting away with it.

 

You seem to like numbers here are some more - a total of 146,322 personal-injury road traffic accidents were reported to the police in 2014 - of these accidents, 1,658 resulted in at least 1 fatality.

 

Now answer my question are you really excusing this behaviour?

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by scouser

[peanuts]

IMO one of the biggest problems a lot of motorists have  these days is a severe lack of forward thinking and forward planning.

I would bet that the lady in Lincoln drove onto the crossing not taking into account of the fact that the barriers may come down, there was also probably a complete  lack of situational awareness. (aka cloud cuckoo land driving) until it became apparent that the barrier was about to hit her car.

Hazard perception (linked to the above ofcourse) is another basic quality severely lacking with some drivers in my observations these days unfortunately.

probabley to busy updating facebook with pics of the baby to pay attention to the road 

[LNERGE]

Considering what we have done next door at Downham i found the public completely trouble free for 9 days without barriers etc. My only encounter was one fifty something lady who wanted to know why she couldn't make her own mind up and just nip across. I had no need to provide an answer as the empty sand showed up right on Cue at about 60mph. No further comment required.

Not taken on the occasion mentioned above but it will put pictures to the words..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/25336726174/

[highpeakman]

IMO one of the biggest problems a lot of motorists have  these days is a severe lack of forward thinking and forward planning.

I would bet that the lady in Lincoln drove onto the crossing not taking into account of the fact that the barriers may come down, there was also probably a complete  lack of situational awareness. (aka cloud cuckoo land driving) until it became apparent that the barrier was about to hit her car.

Hazard perception (linked to the above ofcourse) is another basic quality severely lacking with some drivers in my observations these days unfortunately.

 

I agree that was probably a large part of the cause. This road over this particular crossing has traffic lights about 100yds further on (in either direction). Traffic frequently queues back from the lights to the crossing and situations like this occur because drivers just blindly follow the car in front across the crossing without looking to see if the traffic ahead is still moving so that they can get clear on the other side - as you say lack of situational awareness.

 

Unfortunately it is a style of driving for far too many people and can be seen during virtually every car journey. Most of the time they get away with it (often with other drivers making the necessary "adjustments" to avoid an accident) and this perpetuates the style of driving as "Well, I not had any accidents so I must be competent!". One day though the combination of events arrive flipside down. 

[uax6]

Not taken on the occasion mentioned above but it will put pictures to the words..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/25336726174/

Weren't you supposed to be working???

 

Andy G

[LNERGE]

Weren't you supposed to be working???

 

Andy G

I remember my careers master at school when i announced i'd like to work on the railway... ' I come to and from school on the train every day' he said 'Those lazy B******* are always leaning on their shovels doing nothing when i go past'

[uax6]

I remember my careers master at school when i announced i'd like to work on the railway... ' I come to and from school on the train every day' he said 'Those lazy B******* are always leaning on their shovels doing nothing when i go past'

At least you are keeping up with tradition....

 

Which reminds me. Some time age a telly program (Tomorrows world I think) showed some sort of 'spot the hazard' near a railway level crossing. I was watching with a mate, and he said 'Theres a yellow van there, I bet the hazard is the blokes working on the line' to which I replied 'Don't be daft, they will be in the back of the van playing cards'.....

 

Andy G

[lmsforever]

People even try to beat the barriers on a local country road crossing over a single line normal trains are two cars and pass fairly quickly the longest train is a binliner which still dose not cause much delay.At least this crossing is going within the next couple of years to be replaced by a bridge even then someone was complaining about headlights shining in her barn!

[big jim]

People even try to beat the barriers on a local country road crossing over a single line normal trains are two cars and pass fairly quickly the longest train is a binliner which still dose not cause much delay.At least this crossing is going within the next couple of years to be replaced by a bridge even then someone was complaining about headlights shining in her barn!

 

i failed on the aproach to that crossing (marsh lane) with a class 70, i had to get my trainee to fire up the rear loco (top and tail) and shove me all the way to aylesbury loop, by the time he'd done that the crossing had timed out so i had to get down and push the manual operation plunger then quickly get back up and get moving!

 

everything has to slow to 10mph before that crossing anyway and only proceed when safe to do so, accelerating once on the crossing so the bin liners can take a while to pass over it, the longest train ive taken over it was 20 auto hoppers, a kirow crane and a sleeper delivery train with a 70 both ends, funnily enough that failed too in brill tunnel, that was a sod to have to run round, left the train in risborough and had to go to wycombe to cross over as it was too long for the track circuits  

 

its been quite funny on the cambrian over the last few months to see people try and race you to buttington crossing to get there before you, ok im only doing 40mph max so they may think they'll get there first but i will hit the treadles before they get anywhere near the crossing, i always win, then to add insult to injury i have to go slow aproaching and over the crossing and only proceed when i'm sure its safe to do so  

Edited March 22, 2016 by big jim

[highpeakman]

Just to return to the Lincoln incident one last time (for me anyway!). 

 

A few years ago when the Lincoln resignalling was first started the local newspaper reported that "the crossing barriers would in future be closed to traffic for a lot less time in future as the new signals/track layout would enable trains to run through the city at much higher speeds".

 

It should be noted for those who do not know Lincoln that one of the two city centre crossings is about 20 yds from the end of the station platforms.

 

Presumably they expected the trains to Nottingham, etc to blast through the crossing at 50mph and then brake violently in the station followed by stunning acceleration out of the station on the return journey!

[keefer]

 

its been quite funny on the cambrian over the last few months to see people try and race you to buttington crossing to get there before you, ok im only doing 40mph max so they may think they'll get there first but i will hit the treadles before they get anywhere near the crossing, i always win, then to add insult to injury i have to go slow aproaching and over the crossing and only proceed when i'm sure its safe to do so  

 

I hope you give them a nice 'toot toot' as you go past - some might even 'wave' back!

[big jim]

i do indeed toot and wave

[LMS2968]

I hope you give them a nice 'toot toot' as you go past - some might even 'wave' back!

Yes, but count the fingers!

[jjb1970]

To try and understand what drives silly and unacceptable behaviour is not to condone or excuse it, but if we want to try and improve safety then I think trying to anticipate and change behaviours is essential. We can talk about stupid drivers, and I'd agree there is no shortage of driving stupidity around level crossings but there are both practical (avoid delays, cost of repairs, stress to employees etc) and moral (those idiots leave dependents and loved ones behind and as a society it'd be sad if we just dismissed fatal incidents as darwinsim in action) reasons to try and reduce incidents which are caused by unacceptable behaviours. Threatening sanctions is not an effective policy, it doesn't stop speeding and a lot of other bad driving behaviours. I think the example is seat belts where a combination of public education and stigmatising not wearing a seatbelt has been quite effective in promoting good habits.