Level crossing stupidity...

[Colin_McLeod]

There have been videos of fatal events published for years such as Hindenbug, Word War 2, World Trade Centre demolition, the tsunamis to name but a few.

[YesTor]

Well I think the rules should be changed so it's not permitted to link video footage of fatalities.

 

I disagree.  Fatalities are part of life, unpleasant and distressing for most of us, absolutely.  However, exposure to some of the less appealing aspects of life, ie. by real-life footage (or shock tactics), is often the most effective form of educational video.  In other words, "look children, this is exactly what you DON'T do at level crossings!" 

 

Shocking?  Yes.

Harsh?  Yes.

Valuable lesson learned?  Hopefully.

 

Sure, we can follow the alternative option of sugar-coating the facts, but does that approach actually teach us, or our children, anything memorable or of value?

Edited February 2, 2016 by darkjunglemung

[melmerby]

There have been videos of fatal events published for years such as Hindenbug, Word War 2, World Trade Centre demolition, the tsunamis to name but a few.

I watched 9/11 live on CNN.

Yes it was ghastly but no way should it have been censored to protect the easily upset.

 

Keith

[PhilJ W]

As the clip is 'official' being from the CCTV cameras it must have been released by the authorities. Also once such a film is on the internet it is impossible to remove it, its in the public domain forever.

[Reorte]

Well I think the rules should be changed so it's not permitted to link video footage of fatalities. I mean if there were CCTv footage of a couple having sex on a train I wouldn't expect to see this on the grounds of ' there's loads of porn on YouTube!'

Seeing life ending is fine, seeing life being created is unacceptable.

As the clip is 'official' being from the CCTV cameras it must have been released by the authorities. Also once such a film is on the internet it is impossible to remove it, its in the public domain forever.

What YouTube permits on its site is up to it though, it's under no obligation to keep anything there, public domain or otherwise.

Sure, we can follow the alternative option of sugar-coating the facts, but does that approach actually teach us, or our children, anything memorable or of value?

It's nothing to do with sugar-coating and the facts speak for themselves without the pictures. The real reason the footage is up there and gets watched is to satisfy the ghoulish. Edited February 3, 2016 by Reorte

[russ p]

I'm not talking about YouTube I'm on about what's acceptable on here. There are many drivers active on here and I would not like to see a fatality I was involved with linked to YouTube on here for all to discuss. It's bad enough when an incident is torn to bits and wrongly analysed by experts on here.

Yes I know about the war, 911 etc but I think fatal crashes are a no no. Indeed motorsports crash videos which were all the rage some years ago NEVER include footage of death or serious injury crashes.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not talking about YouTube I'm on about what's acceptable on here. There are many drivers active on here and I would not like to see a fatality I was involved with linked to YouTube on here for all to discuss. It's bad enough when an incident is torn to bits and wrongly analysed by experts on here.

Yes I know about the war, 911 etc but I think fatal crashes are a no no. Indeed motorsports crash videos which were all the rage some years ago NEVER include footage of death or serious injury crashes.

It depends what is shown of a fatal incident.  In the clip in question no bodies were seen, no injuries were seen but equally it is plainly obvious that it was a very serious collision with - even from watching it - potentially fatal results.  So the question really is whether a film of the incident is or isn't more acceptable than pictures of the consequences (which in the case of this incident do exist on the 'net and can be reached easily from this thread).   However again while there are pictures of very severe damage to the train, including the vehicle where the fatalities occurred, there are no pictures of the dead and injured - what is shown is illustrative of what can happen in an incident such as this, and the video does exactly the same.

 

There is for example readily available in books and on the 'net pictures of the pile of wreckage at Harrow - within which there would almost certainly have been bodies - and equally there are plenty of pictures of the scene at Quintinshill (some of which include views of the injured and of bodies which have been covered.  If you are going to ban - which seems to be what you seek - pictures and film of incidents on the railway which resulted in fatalities an awful lot of archive information, often of value to researchers etc, would have to be locked away forever.

 

The same applies no doubt to masses of material on the internet there is however with all of it a very simple choice - it is not compulsory to view it and at the same time it can also be of use or interest to others in analysing (or trying to analyse what happened).  To seek its banning is, I suspect, a rather forlorn hope and in addition banning it will not stop it happening nor will it decide who is or isn't affected by it. 

 

As far as what we do or don't see or get involved in life is still something of a lottery - back on 5 October 1999 I was a bit slow getting started in the morning and with nothing special on at work I didn't rush to catch up so I missed my usual train to London on which I normally travelled in the leading coach.  That train collided head on with a dmu at Ladbroke Grove - the Driver of the train I missed had, in a previous job been a member of my staff, the wife of the Driver of the dmu involved was the Hygienist at our dental practice, a number of people I knew travelled regularly in that leading coach (fortunately none were on that day) but none of that stopped me taking a  professional interest in what and happened and, more importantly why it had happened.  Fortunately for all of us such incidents are rare on today's railway but that is no reason to lock away information about them in the event that they do happen.  

[Horsetan]

.....If you are going to ban - which seems to be what you seek - pictures and film of incidents on the railway which resulted in fatalities an awful lot of archive information, often of value to researchers etc, would have to be locked away forever.

 

The same applies no doubt to masses of material on the internet there is however with all of it a very simple choice - it is not compulsory to view it and at the same time it can also be of use or interest to others in analysing (or trying to analyse what happened).  To seek its banning is, I suspect, a rather forlorn hope and in addition banning it will not stop it happening nor will it decide who is or isn't affected by it.....

 

The other thing to remember about banning stuff is that, in today's world, it will simply pop up elsewhere.

 

The Ancient Greek myth of the Hydra still holds good today.

[Reorte]

In any case banning feels like it's going too far in the other direction. Such footage also has its place too, I just feel that it's often there for gratuitous reasons more than anything else (although I don't think anyone on here is looking at footage from level crossing collisions with that in mind), which isn't a particularly pleasant reason. I can't help but feel that there's also something rather intrusive. Arguments about "sugar coating" and "protecting the easily upset" are, I think, dismissing the issue rather than addressing it. Any time someone has lost their life, particularly in tragic circumstances, is a delicate issue.

[russ p]

I know what you are saying Mike, but I just don't think it's right to see the actual crash happening for the sake of entertainment which whether we like it or not is what this forum is.

I like yourself have seen horrific images and film over the years as part of evidence into accidents on the railway.

There is no way I would ever think of posting that on YouTube though some on here think that would be more than acceptable

[russ p]

The other thing to remember about banning stuff is that, in today's world, it will simply pop up elsewhere.

 

The Ancient Greek myth of the Hydra still holds good today.

Well that's fine , at the end of the day this is supposedly a family friendly forum.

Porn is available elsewhere or maybe we could accommodate it in wheel tappers?

[Sidecar Racer]

, but I just don't think it's right to see the actual crash happening for the sake of entertainment

 

 

This is not entertainment , it is a factual recording off a tragic event , it's in the correct thread and in the

correct topic area of RMweb therefore I don't see a problem with it ,

 

Nobody has been making any comments that are anything other than honest opinion of the event , there

certainly have not been any posts glorifying what happened as being entertaining .

 

If I want entertainment then I watch the TV or read a book .

[The Stationmaster]

I know what you are saying Mike, but I just don't think it's right to see the actual crash happening for the sake of entertainment which whether we like it or not is what this forum is.

I like yourself have seen horrific images and film over the years as part of evidence into accidents on the railway.

There is no way I would ever think of posting that on YouTube though some on here think that would be more than acceptable

I don't think Russ that anybody on here looks at it in that way and, as Sidecar Racer Mike has said, it is not entertainment as it is in a relevant thread which, as it happens, covers something which can involve very bad consequences.  To me it is actually sometimes useful because of various involvements I still have with the heritage and leisure sector - for others it is no doubt a matter of interest but not in a ghoulish way.

 

Whether this thread actually contributes to improving things at level crossings is a moot issue but no doubt it does remind people of what can go wrong and what they should bear in mind when approaching such a crossing and that, in turn, might be of benefit to the person sat up front on the train; we simply don't know but at least it keeps the subject in the minds of those who are interested.   

[Gary H]

I don't think Russ that anybody on here looks at it in that way and, as Sidecar Racer Mike has said, it is not entertainment as it is in a relevant thread which, as it happens, covers something which can involve very bad consequences.  To me it is actually sometimes useful because of various involvements I still have with the heritage and leisure sector - for others it is no doubt a matter of interest but not in a ghoulish way.

 

Whether this thread actually contributes to improving things at level crossings is a moot issue but no doubt it does remind people of what can go wrong and what they should bear in mind when approaching such a crossing and that, in turn, might be of benefit to the person sat up front on the train; we simply don't know but at least it keeps the subject in the minds of those who are interested.   

Indeed.

This latest accident (with the video link posted) is on-going in a thread over on WNXX. Talking to our train drivers (especially drivers) and other rail staff on the site has actually resulted in a very interesting discussion about rail vehicle crash worthiness standards across the world and particularly of the train involved.

So its clear that something very positive can come out of said video and the pictures of the train after the event. Its not all bad by any stretch.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Gary H

[scouser]

I know this topic covers other stupidity than vehicle drivers, but the part vehicle drivers play in these occurences has far more to do with the falling driving standards at large. Forget railways for a moment and the next time you are out and about watch the road users.

Not using indicators, using phones, parking anywhere and driving as if nobody else exists. Combine this with an inconvenient level crossing and what seems to be a complete lack of survival instincts and some poor driver on a train has to cope with the results!

I think the first thing that should be done is make the train driver 100% safe. The train is in the correct place.

As for showing the incidents , the more people that see them the better. It might just make someone think about DEATH and how to avoid it.

To the devil with sensativity.

[Reorte]

As for showing the incidents , the more people that see them the better. It might just make someone think about DEATH and how to avoid it.

To the devil with sensativity.

I doubt that much whether it will. The people who'll think about it are the people who don't need to be told. The people who'll just watch these videos for the hell of it (not anyone on here) are probably fairly desensitised anyway, unless they end up with direct, personal involvement I doubt that they'll pay much attention. They know it's a possibility anyway (presumably) but nah, they're not that stupid, their judgment is fine, I'm not like those fools etc.

 

What might help is sticking them in a cab and telling them to stop the train by a certain point and see what they think when they go sailing past it having barely slowed at all (people expecting the train to stop seems to have come up a few times in this thread).

 

When it comes to sensitivity, someone has died. That is very much an area for sensitivity.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Reorte

[jjb1970]

I think there is a fine line between film footage of tragedy becoming almost a form of voyeurism and shielding people from the consequences of the consequences of bad decisions. I don't like the way tragedy often becomes entertainment (for example, that whole cottage industry of what I call war porn where footage of soldiers, airmen and seamen dying in action is nothing more than entertainment) but equally I do think the world might be a better place if people were forced to confront just how horribly death and mutilation are. I used to regularly have to review reports of fatal incidents which contained what might be called graphic images of bodies and on occasion had to attend the incident and personally I found it made a profound difference to my attitude on a few H&S issues.

[YesTor]

The real reason the footage is up there and gets watched is to satisfy the ghoulish.

 

With all due respect regarding the video as entertainment "to satisfy the ghoulish" appears to be your own interpretation of said video.  This should not automatically imply that we all view the video in question under the same light.

 

It's nothing to do with sugar-coating and the facts speak for themselves without the pictures.

 

Facts are indeed facts, however there is no denying that images, or in this case actual footage, is often far more effective in conveying the actual horror of such an event.  A good example, as someone has already mentioned, is 9/11.  Without the live footage that exists, the horrific events of 9/11 would in no way have had quite the same impact on the world as they did.  Images leave powerful memories within the mind.  A paragraph of text, not quite so.

Edited February 4, 2016 by darkjunglemung

[Reorte]

With all due respect regarding the video as entertainment "to satisfy the ghoulish" appears to be your own interpretation of said video.  This should not automatically imply that we all view the video in question under the same light.

I hope you also noticed that I wasn't accusing people on this thread of doing so. As unpleasant as they are they're relevent to the topic being discussed. It doesn't automatically imply anything about all, just many.

Facts are indeed facts, however there is no denying that images, or in this case actual footage, is often far more effective in conveying the actual horror of such an event.  A good example, as someone has already mentioned, is 9/11.  Without the live footage that exists, the horrific events of 9/11 would in no way have had quite the same impact on the world as they did.  Images leave powerful memories within the mind.  A paragraph of text, not quite so.

But not on the type of people who are likely to be the ones responsible for such things.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Reorte

[Maxwill]

Well I think the rules should be changed so it's not permitted to link video footage of fatalities. I mean if there were CCTv footage of a couple having sex on a train I wouldn't expect to see this on the grounds of ' there's loads of porn on YouTube!'

 

The bottom line is that if something offends you, stop reading and move on. If the problem persists stop subscribing to RMweb and complain to those in charge. Arguing about the content on the forum will not resolve the issue if it is not breaking the rules. 

[Guest]

I don't think Russ is "arguing" about anything. He's merely stating a personal opinion. This thread (in particular) is full of them. Might I suggest drawing a line under the ethical debate and moving on?

[russ p]

Thanks Pete, I've given up with this. But if any of the experts have dash cams can you post your next fatal crashes on here please.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Pete, I've given up with this. But if any of the experts have dash cams can you post your next fatal crashes on here please.

An interesting point there Russ - does your TOC use the equivalent of a dashcam? (as I understand is the case with at least one other)

[russ p]

Hi Mike, one class of loco has them. They are on the whole a good idea but I've heard of them being abused by some TOCs as a spying tool

The railway calls them forward facing camera's

Hi Mike, one class of loco has them. They are on the whole a good idea but I've heard of them being abused by some TOCs as a spying tool

The railway calls them forward facing camera's

[big jim]

i notice that ROG (rail operation group) have put go-pros in loco cabs on the bulkhead behind the driver, not sure i like that idea to be honest, i see it as a spying tool, no doubt management would claim its there for 'peace of mind' but i could see it being abused, front fancing cameras on the other hand are a good thing (when they work)

 

i certainly dont want my bosses listening to me talking to the voices in my head while i drive along!