Level crossing stupidity...

[Fat Controller]

Unlike in Hungary where there appears to be a law requiring that drivers stop to give assistance at the scene of an accident.  Which can lead to carnage on their motorways as all vehicles come to an emergency stop on both carriageways so as not to be found breaking the law - cars usually stopped and left in dangerous positions across all carriageways to the point that they hamper the arrival of emergency services!

Theoretically, the law on 'failing to give assistance' applies also in France and Italy; it's more honoured in the breach than the observance, I suspect. Certainly, when a car overtook us, then swerved into the ditch, I didn't notice anyone else stopping.

[ess1uk]

this has to be added here

 

 

i didn't take the picture, nor do i know where it is

Edited April 25, 2014 by ess1uk

[jwealleans]

Hell, why not.  It's been on nearly every other thread on here.

[Glorious NSE]

A closer view of a van than train drivers really want...

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2014-05-01/near-miss-at-level-crossing-near-st-austell/

 

Looking at the site (Molinnis crossing, at Bugle, on the Newquay branch) though I kinda agree that the signage/setup is poor, where the van emerges from I suspect you can't see any of the lights, and you're end-on to the stop line...

[beast66606]

<not directed at you Martin>

 

To me it's another case of making an excuse for poor driving.

 

The van is parked in /using the side "road" - http://goo.gl/maps/wYRTI - there is a big red flashing light right next to the drivers head, aside from the railway line which should enforce care anyway if you can't see the signs, there is no obvious attempt by the van driver to establish if the crossing was clear before proceeding, I could have accepted his nose being forward to get a better view but he didn't appear to look, even when the train was coming, in fact there is a flash of something which looks remarkably like paperwork being checked for the next delivery (thats MY opinion)

[martin_wynne]

Hell, why not.  It's been on nearly every other thread on here.

 

I was guilty of posting one of them (topic now deleted). Because there is no way to search for a specific image having been posted on RMweb. I spend quite a lot of time on RMweb but I still hadn't seen it (and still don't know in which other topics it appeared).

 

Do we now know if it is genuine or a hoax? And where it is? And apologies if this has already been discussed in another topic -- which one?

 

Martin.

[Pete 75C]

Do we now know if it is genuine or a hoax? And where it is? And apologies if this has already been discussed in another topic -- which one?

 

Possibly this one? It gets discussed for a page or two after the photo...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62412-things-that-make-you/page-57&do=findComment&comment=1409322

[byron]

I was guilty of posting one of them (topic now deleted). Because there is no way to search for a specific image having been posted on RMweb. I spend quite a lot of time on RMweb but I still hadn't seen it (and still don't know in which other topics it appeared).

 

Do we now know if it is genuine or a hoax? And where it is? And apologies if this has already been discussed in another topic -- which one?

 

Martin.

No hoax - not only has this been posted a few times (I understand) on this forum, it has made it's way round Europe as well. The Drehscheibe forum was where I first saw it, and it was reported to have been photographed in Holland. This fits with the croissing lights/signage. German built fire engines are used in Holland.

We may mock, but in the heat of the moment (sorry) automatic responses to training tend to take over.

Mike

[Glorious NSE]

<not directed at you Martin>

 

To me it's another case of making an excuse for poor driving.

 

I don't disagree, and the court appears to have thought so too - but they also seem to have taken the view that he wouldn't have done that if he'd had a set of lights, (or in fact any reminder of the crossing) in his eyeline at some point...

 

I've freeze-framed that, and I think the "flashes" are a mix of the far fence showing through the open van windows, and possibly reflections of the near fence of the van window, i'm sure that if he'd been in court (with the "full fat" version of the video) and he was on camera playing with paperwork then they would not have reduced the charge from dangerous to careless.

[Not Captain Kernow]

However his drivers cab side window is open and the yodel must be sounding virtually at his ear level as he passes the post!  Assuming of course that the yodel is in the usual position on the offside warning lights...

Edited May 1, 2014 by Not Captain Kernow

[Glorious NSE]

Looking on street view, looks like they are mounted on the other one...

[PhilJ W]

In the film it looked as if he may have been wearing headphones.

[Glorious NSE]

Just had a rewatch, and i'm not at all convinced by that theory!

[duncan]

I would guess as a delivery driver he may have had a fitted mobile phone with earpiece, though how that could have covered the siren noise. 

 

Having done some delivery work, I know that most of the companies push van drivers to cover many deliveries / distances that I would be pushed to cover in a car, which is more agile & can legally travel faster.   One route I drove for many weeks had the same timings no matter what size/type/weight of van (increased loading time) and therefor what the max permitted speed was on a single carriageway of 150 miles.  Got many a bollocking for getting back late.

 

If the company managers/directors were also prosecuted, then delivery drivers would be a lot better drivers, either by the companies employing a different type of person or the drivers knowing care was more important than speed & money. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by duncan

[Catkins]

However his drivers cab side window is open and the yodel must be sounding virtually at his ear level as he passes the post!  Assuming of course that the yodel is in the usual position on the offside warning lights...

Does the yodel sound continuously at an open crossing?

I know that it only sounds when the barriers are closing at full barrier crossings (Lincoln High Street, Lincoln East Holmes and Lincoln Skellingthorpe Road for example)

I would have thought that -

1) The fence would have been an indicator of something 'unusual'.

2) The gap in the buildings on the drivers nearside would have been a give away.

3) I am of the belief that the van driver was local to the area, and as such would have know that the railway was there.

[Neil]

I would guess as a delivery driver he may have had a fitted mobile phone with earpiece, though how that could have covered the siren noise. 

 

Having done some delivery work, I know that most of the companies push van drivers to cover many deliveries / distances that I would be pushed to cover in a car, which is more agile & can legally travel faster.   One route I drove for many weeks had the same timings no matter what size/type/weight of van (increased loading time) and therefor what the max permitted speed was on a single carriageway of 150 miles.  Got many a bollocking for getting back late.

 

If the company managers/directors were also prosecuted, then delivery drivers would be a lot better drivers, either by the companies employing a different type of person or the drivers knowing care was more important than speed & money. 

 

That's an interesting observation; I wonder if the police or the courts ever take a look at the delivery schedule given to/imposed on the driver in such cases?

[Pete 75C]

That's an interesting observation; I wonder if the police or the courts ever take a look at the delivery schedule given to/imposed on the driver in such cases?

 

I doubt it, but maybe they should... my local CityLink driver has just told CL to --- off. He says the Norwich - Norfolk Coastal schedule is becoming tighter each month with financial penalties and constant threat of dismissal for the driver if he can't keep to it. That kind of pressure will at the very least cause someone to be a little preoccupied...

[phil-b259]

That's an interesting observation; I wonder if the police or the courts ever take a look at the delivery schedule given to/imposed on the driver in such cases?

 

But when it comes to motoring offences such matters are irrelevant. The legislation is quite clear - it is you the driver who is at fault hence the reason why before a notice of prosecution can be served the registered keeper of the vehicle must be offered the chance to give details of why was driving it at the time of the offence. This is why we were told making sure the drivers logbook is always up to date because if the driver cannot be identified, the vehicle fleet manager will have to carry the can as regards the fine and the points personally.

 

Its a similar story with vehicle defects including tread depth, a blown lamp, etc - its all down to the driver in law so regardless whether the delivery company is being un-realistic about timings or sending drivers out in unroadworthy vehicles, it makes absolutely no difference to the drivers personal liability (though in the worst case the relevant 'traffic commissioner' does have the power to shut down firms who consistently send out dangerous vehicles or tamper with tachographs, etc)

 

On the other hand if a driver was dismissed for not keeping to the company determined delivery schedule but said schedule can only be attained by breaking the law then the driver will have a case - but one which must be fought through an employment tribunal by putting in a claim for unfair dismissal.

Edited May 2, 2014 by phil-b259

[Edwin_m]

That's an interesting observation; I wonder if the police or the courts ever take a look at the delivery schedule given to/imposed on the driver in such cases?

HSE might be interested too, as it's done in the course of employment and presents a risk to the employee and others.  Why do we have such a double standard with driving compared to most other activities? 

[bodmin16]

Does the yodel sound continuously at an open crossing?

 

Yodels normally sound continuously at open and half barrier crossings, when the crossing is closed to road traffic I.e. Red lights flashing.

[Glorious NSE]

1) The fence would have been an indicator of something 'unusual'.

2) The gap in the buildings on the drivers nearside would have been a give away.

3) I am of the belief that the van driver was local to the area, and as such would have know that the railway was there.

 

Add to that, he'd have passed all the crossing signs on the way up that lane before delivery...I don't dispute it was a poor piece of driving, but I am of the opinion that it's a "could do better" from the railway as well.

[duncan]

Absolutely agree Phil, no defence for missing lights etc & not looking carefully.  I have however had experience of trying to get work for people who have "won" an employment tribunal. 

 

Many employers unfortunately don't look beyond the termination of employment & the word "tribunal" when recruiting.  They see tribunal & think troublemaker, see a tribunal financial settlement & see £ signs attached to employing that person, even if the previous employer broke the law.  If the person manages to get to the interview stage life is often easier.

[Neil]

But when it comes to motoring offences such matters are irrelevant. The legislation is quite clear - it is you the driver who is at fault hence the reason why before a notice of prosecution can be served the registered keeper of the vehicle must be offered the chance to give details of why was driving it at the time of the offence. This is why we were told making sure the drivers logbook is always up to date because if the driver cannot be identified, the vehicle fleet manager will have to carry the can as regards the fine and the points personally.

 

Its a similar story with vehicle defects including tread depth, a blown lamp, etc - its all down to the driver in law so regardless whether the delivery company is being un-realistic about timings or sending drivers out in unroadworthy vehicles, it makes absolutely no difference to the drivers personal liability (though in the worst case the relevant 'traffic commissioner' does have the power to shut down firms who consistently send out dangerous vehicles or tamper with tachographs, etc)

 

On the other hand if a driver was dismissed for not keeping to the company determined delivery schedule but said schedule can only be attained by breaking the law then the driver will have a case - but one which must be fought through an employment tribunal by putting in a claim for unfair dismissal.

 

I'd agree, but perhaps the law needs rebalancing so that it will also vigorously back the driver if he refuses to take a dangerous vehicle out onto the road or is asked to comply with a schedule which is impossible to legally meet in all but the most advantageous of circumstances. Here's an example from the West Japan Railway Company, about what can go wrong when the poor bloke at the controls is powerless and pushed to keep to an impossible timetable by overbearing management.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Neil

[Glorious NSE]

I'd agree, but perhaps the law needs rebalancing so that it will also vigorously back the driver if he refuses to take a dangerous vehicle out onto the road or is asked to comply with a schedule which is impossible to legally meet in all but the most advantageous of circumstances. Here's an example from the West Japan Railway Company, about what can go wrong when the poor bloke at the controls is powerless and pushed to keep to an impossible timetable by overbearing management.

 

I'd agree with that - although we're somewhat on a tangent. There doesn't seem to be the slightest bit of evidence that he was aware of the train and deliberately tried to beat it to save 30 seconds because of his schedule, which seems to be the inference of that line of thought?

[lmsforever]

Having worked for fifteen years delivering I can say that employers do put pressure on you to complete deliveries at speeds above the legal limit plus phoning you to ask were are you the customers waiting.I just said I will get there when I get there ,they pile drops onto you and think nothing of you driving for twelve hours (no tacho in vans) if you take a break you are shouted at as well.This driver is a dangerous person and not a professional one and should have received a ban as well as the points and fines plus he should apologise to the train driver as no one seems to think of the traumatised train driver .