Level crossing stupidity...

[Dunsignalling]

We get sent copies of the BEA-TT ( French equivalent of RAIB, though dealing with road transport as well) reports (a legacy of one or other of Lynne's jobs)- there seem to be relatively frequent level crossing incidents.

Thus far, action being taken includes:-

suppression of crossings whenever possible.

introduction of median strips to prevent 'slaloming'

looking at the height of warning lamps, and their positioning, to try and reduce the incidence of drivers passing rows of waiting vehicles, claiming that they 'thought they were parked'

One thing I have noticed is that the French do not seem to have an aversion to remote operation of full-barrier crossings, seemingly without CCTV coverage.

I understand that automatic full-barrier crossings are being evaluated for UK application.

 

AFAIK, these have two full-width barriers rather than four half-width units.

 

After lowering, crossing-clear is detected using radar and the Signaller only becomes involved if the system detects an obstruction.

 

John  

Edited March 9, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[beast66606]

Yes strictly they were on the crossing when they shouldn't have been but the circumstance was they had waited for a train and when it came they then crossed to get to where they were going unaware of a second train. There was nothing to stop them as no lock had been put on the pedestrian gate and therefore the only indication were signals provided for the control of cars, not pedestrians. This risk was known about by NR who chose to ignore it. It was for that that NR were criticised.

 

(My bold) Incorrect

 

Paragraph 39

The station pedestrian crossing was fitted with miniature stop lights and an audible alarm to warn passengers of the approach of trains.

 

I won't comment further as the incident is too emotive, I have my own views.

It was a sad accident for all concerned.

[PhilJ W]

I hope the mods don't remove this as it appears to be 'pre-sanitised' (no deaths or serious injury's)>>

Look out for the idiot who tried to drive his car across a foot crossing half the width of his car.

[Adrian Wintle]

I understand that automatic full-barrier crossings are being evaluated for UK application.

 

AFAIK, these have two full-width barriers rather than four half-width units.

 

After lowering, crossing-clear is detected using radar and the Signaller only becomes involved if the system detects an obstruction.

 

John  

 

This does still have the issue of the signaller-controlled crossings. The crossing has to be closed and evaluated as clear well before the train reaches the controlling signal, which has to be far enugh out to allow the train to stop short of the crossing from line speed. This means the crossing is closed for much longer than with AHBs and automatic strike in.

 

Adrian

[Glorious NSE]

Look out for the idiot who tried to drive his car across a foot crossing half the width of his car.

 

There's always one...

 

The vid also brings home that, whilst UK crossings (and crossing users) are imperfect, so is the rest of the world...

[Dunsignalling]

This does still have the issue of the signaller-controlled crossings. The crossing has to be closed and evaluated as clear well before the train reaches the controlling signal, which has to be far enugh out to allow the train to stop short of the crossing from line speed. This means the crossing is closed for much longer than with AHBs and automatic strike in.

 

Adrian

Yes. But it does address the idiot motorist factor, which poses the greatest danger to railway users.

 

There is a longer wait (than at AHBs) but, as significant numbers of road users can't be trusted to use those safely, it's a price all motorists may have to pay. Full-width barriers at least ensure the impatient can't do anything about it.

 

Pedestrians jumping the barriers represent a level of attempted self-darwinisation that will be harder to overcome. If they do it after the train has passed the protecting signal, there is no obvious answer; even if the driver spots them, he/she won't stop in time.

 

Maybe the sort of electric fencing used by farmers could be fitted along the top of the barriers? If it keeps sheep in, it might keep lemmings out!

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

Yes. But it does address the idiot motorist factor, which poses the greatest danger to railway users.

 

There is a longer wait (than at AHBs) but, as significant numbers of road users can't be trusted to use those safely, it's a price all motorists may have to pay. Full-width barriers at least ensure the impatient can't do anything about it.

 

Pedestrians jumping the barriers represent a level of attempted self-darwinisation that will be harder to overcome. If they do it after the train has passed the protecting signal, there is no obvious answer; even if the driver spots them, he/she won't stop in time.

 

Maybe the sort of electric fencing used by farmers could be fitted along the top of the barriers? If it keeps sheep in, it might keep lemmings out!

 

John

This of course shows the daft element of that Parliamentary Committee Report with their emphasis on NR reducing fatalities to nil by 2020.  Even if footpath crossings are excluded (which they aren't) I fail to see how NR can control the stupidity of the lesser brained or non-thinking members of society who are convinced that a train will bounce off them if it does happen to come along.  Over molly-coddling of people reduces individual initiative and responsibility and people see their 'safety' as being someone else's responsibility.  I'm sorry but it simply does not work like that and it never will and regrettably there will unavoidably always been some element of risk unless every single crossing is provided with full gates CCTV, radar obstacle detection and an individual controller - and even then the impatient person will still try to climb over a gate or barrier.

Edited March 10, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[ess1uk]

 

 

Make the emergency phones orange,

they are YELLOW already

[Adrian Wintle]

Yes. But it does address the idiot motorist factor, which poses the greatest danger to railway users.

 

There is a longer wait (than at AHBs) but, as significant numbers of road users can't be trusted to use those safely, it's a price all motorists may have to pay. Full-width barriers at least ensure the impatient can't do anything about it.

 

However, that is a driver training and/or visible enforcement issue.

 

Just yesterday I watched motorists sit at a level crossing (AHB, 2-lanes of traffic each way) with nobody trying to jump the crossing even though the train was stopped within sight of the crossing for at least 5 minutes. A number of cars turned around to use an alternate route, but none tried the crossing. And this was notoriously impatient Toronto-area traffic. The ones that waited then got to watch the train approach and cross slowly - probably another 15 minutes (it was a very long intermodal).

 

Over here the idiot motorist factor does't provide much danger to railway users, it is mostly only dangerous to the motorists and their passengers (NA freight locos are BIG).

 

Adrian

Edited March 10, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[Pacific231G]

This does still have the issue of the signaller-controlled crossings. The crossing has to be closed and evaluated as clear well before the train reaches the controlling signal, which has to be far enugh out to allow the train to stop short of the crossing from line speed. This means the crossing is closed for much longer than with AHBs and automatic strike in.

 

Adrian

The central reservation with half barriers seems the most realistic option and wouldn't cost a great deal. They need to be just long enough  to make driving down the wrong sides not a real option even for the most impatient driver because they'd be in a head on situation with anyone coming the other way.

Frankly though, while some other incidents may be due to carelessness of inattention, deliberate zig-zagging is so deliberately dangerous that I'd classify it with drunk driving and impose a mandatory twelve month driving ban on anyone caught doing it.

 

An AFB is effectively a manned level crossing staffed by a robot and probably most useful in road situations where vehicles are liable to be trapped by traffic in front of them (which shouldn't happen if people obey the box junction rule but easy to be lulled by traffic that seems to be moving freely then suddenly grinds to a halt)  I think there was a fairly horrendous case of this in the US a few years ago involving a school bus.

 

For aeons French level crossings of mutiple track lines have carried a prominent sign saying "un train peut etre caché un autre" - A train may be hiding another, but suspect these are so familiar that nobody notices them anymore.

[Dagworth]

 

Frankly though, while some other incidents may be due to carelessness of inattention, deliberate zig-zagging is so deliberately dangerous that I'd classify it with drunk driving and impose a mandatory twelve month driving ban on anyone caught doing it.

Passing the flashing red lights under ANY circumstance (except under instruction of a suitably AUTHORISED person) should be an automatic loss of license.

 

Andi

[Catkins]

Passing the flashing red lights under ANY circumstance (except under instruction of a suitably AUTHORISED person) should be an automatic loss of license.

 

Andi

But who would be suitably authorised to instruct road users to pass flashing red lights - not even the police have authority to pass through flashing red lights.

[Titan]

There are people in Network rail with more authority than the police in these matters...

[Talltim]

Do fire engines (drivers) have the authority to pass flashing reds outside other fire stations?

[phil-b259]

I understand that automatic full-barrier crossings are being evaluated for UK application.

 

AFAIK, these have two full-width barriers rather than four half-width units.

 

After lowering, crossing-clear is detected using radar and the Signaller only becomes involved if the system detects an obstruction.

 

John  

 

Not so.

 

The official designation of these new crossing being introduced in the UK is "MCB (OD)" which stands for Manually Controlled Barriers with Obstacle Detection. Like ALL MCB installations they are interlocked with the signals - remember AHBs are not!

 

As with the CCTV suffix, the OD system is only concerned with the lowering of the barriers - once they are down and 'seen' to be down the system will switch off - just as the CCTV picture is suppressed the moment the signalman presses his 'crossing clear' button which then allows him to set routes across the crossing and causes the protecting signals to change from red to a proceed aspect.

 

The operation of a MCB (OD) crossing is thus:-

 

The train 'strikes' in with the system - this can be thought to be analogous to the buzzer going off in the signal box of a MCB (CCTV) crossing to tell the signaller he needs to start thinking about putting the barriers down if the train is going to get green aspects (which could be quite a long way away in 4 aspect territory)

 

The radar starts spinning (inside the giant tic-tac) and the LIDAR (thats the low level laser system that caused so much grief in Norfolk) arms itself. After 3 seconds of Yellows and 5 seconds of reds the Entrance / facer barriers LOWER AUTOMATICALLY. - This is a very radical departure from the norm because if the signaller is lowering the barriers themselves, if they see a car chancing it they can take their finger off the button and pause the barriers halfway. With an OD system there is no ability to do this so if you as a motorist chance it and misjudge it expect to have a barrier crash down on the roof of your vehicle!

 

Assuming the entrance barriers have come down successfully the radar does 3 sweeps of the crossing and providing it detects nothing plus the LIDAR report all is clear the exit / railing barriers will descend - again if they hit something on the way down - tough!

 

With all barriers proved down the Radar does a further 3 sweeps and assuming it finds nothing and the LIDAR reports no issues the OD system reports the crossing to be clear causing the protecting signals to change from red to a proceed when the signalman sets a route over the crossing.

 

Now what happens if an obstacle is detected? well as I said earlier the entrance / facing barriers will come down anyway - the only exception will be where there is a significant risk of road traffic blocking back because of an adjacent road junction and as a consequence induction loops laid into the carriageway will be used to prove nothing is foul of the barriers, but these sites will be few. So lets imagine that there aren't any for the purposes of this explanation.

 

So to continue, once the entrance / facing barriers are proved down, if the Radar / LIDAR report there is something or someone still on the crossing then the system will wait for 30 seconds (hopefully giving them the ability to escape). If they do clear the crossing and the system gets 3 clear scans all well and good - the sequence continues as described above. If however the obstruction is still there then the system will wait for a maximum of 30 seconds, then put the exit / trailer barriers down anyway - however there is no need to panic because 10 seconds later they will raise again to give another chance of escape.

 

If the Radar / LIDAR still see something on the crossing then after a further 30 seconds they will generate a 'crossing failed alarm' in the supervising signal box.

 

Note that thoughout all this, the signals protecting the crossing have remained at red and will stay that way until a S&T tech attends the crossing and sorts out the issue. Even if the obstruction subsequently clears, until a S&T tech has attended the crossing the crossing will stay failed, there is no way the signalman can do anything about it.

 

All VERY different from 'automatic' level crossings - certainly as far as UK practice or indeed legislation allows.

 

 

A couple of side points worth mentioning:-

 

The reason for having both the Radar and LIDAR system is entirely down to UK legislation and H&S practices because in Germany they have OD crossings which only have Radar. As far as the UK authorities are concerned before NR could introduce OD crossings as a replacement for MCB (CCTV) or straight MCB crossings they had to prove that they were just as safe - if not safer than what we already had. The problem with relying on Radar alone is it struggles to detect anything under 50cm high and the scenario the authorities put to NR is this. With current MCB crossings if a person were to say have a fit and collapse on the crossing - or perhaps trip up and pass out upon hitting the ground, the signaller should see and would therefore be in a position to stop the crossing sequence - or not even start it in the first place. Radar alone will not detect the person so to fit it in place of current MCB setups represents a real downgrade in safety will be allowed in the UK.

 

If NR wished they could in theory fit MCB (OD) without the secondary system to an AHB crossing because AHB crossings do not offer any protection to a collapsed person on the crossing - so the level of protection would not be affected (as far as pedestrians are concerned - there would of course be an improvement to vehicular safety).

 

NR therefore had to fit a secondary system to cover that gap below the Radar coverage and LIDAR was what they chose. However the question was how low to go? - too low and every bit of grit will set it off and too high and you might miss someone. The solution was to take the worst case scenario - a child lying on their back on the crossing - so NR went to the NSPCC and asked at what age did they think a responsible parent would let their child out and about on their own. The answer according to the NSPCC was age 9, so NR went and got the body profile of the average 9 year old lying on its back and configured the LIDAR devices (sometimes 4 may be needed to capture all areas of the crossing thanks to road profiles etc) such that there was nowhere on the crossing surface where an average 9 year olds body lying horizontal wouldn't trigger the LIDAR system. This is why, when NR had all the problems with mud on the Lenses of the LIDAR units in Norfolk and turned them off - it was told to immediately turn them back on or face immediate prosecution by the ORR / HSE for cooperate negligence.

 

Finally while MCB (OD) cameras do come with an excellent camera package, this is all geared to catching and prosecuting people who misuse it. The 'supervising signalbox' has no control over the actual barriers at all. If the OD system fails then the crossing can be operated from a control unit at the crossing itself by an attendant - who after satisfying themselves that the crossing is clear with their own eyes can then press a 'crossing clear' button which will than allow the signalman to set a route across the crossing and allow the protecting signals to show a proceed.

Edited March 11, 2014 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

But who would be suitably authorised to instruct road users to pass flashing red lights - not even the police have authority to pass through flashing red lights.

 

The answer is quite clear NOBODY AT ALL - That includes the Police Fire, Ambulance, Military, Network Rail, Highway represemntaives (I'm thinking lift bridges), etc.

 

The legislation is quite clear - whether in a car, on a bike, on a horse or on your own two feet they mean STOP and STAY STOPPED if you don't want to wait the only alternative open to you is to turn around and go back the way you came

[phil-b259]

Do fire engines (drivers) have the authority to pass flashing reds outside other fire stations?

 

NO

 

UK legislation is quite specific on this matter.

 

(Though I do believe a number of places have wig wags with white or blue lights to let the drivers of such vehicles know that the lights are in fact working without infringing the requirement to stop)

[beast66606]

A youtube video of mine which demonstrates some of the working of a MCB (OD) crossing at Eccles Road

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

There's flashing red lights (level crossing style) at the end of a runway near to where I live. I have routinely seen other motorists completely ignore these and just drive straight through while they're on. It's a known issue, however I've never seen any legal enforcement of ensuring people actually stop at these lights.

 

The best stupidity I have seen at this location though was witnessing an impatient driver second in the queue at the lights decide to start to go around the law-abiding motorist at the front, just as the lights turned off so they were both setting off along side each other! Seeing this behaviour makes me wonder whether creating fixed obsticals in the middle of the road leading up to AHB crossings will be a 100% block to zig-zagging. The driver at the front of the queue may be effectively blocked, but the determined idiot a couple of cars back may still try their luck around the fixed obstical and the AHB barriers.

 

Never underestimate others stupidity.

[Catkins]

There's flashing red lights (level crossing style) at the end of a runway near to where I live. I have routinely seen other motorists completely ignore these and just drive straight through while they're on. It's a known issue, however I've never seen any legal enforcement of ensuring people actually stop at these lights.

There are a set of lights at the end of the runway at RAF Waddington on the A15. I will stop if the lights are on - I don't fancy having an AWACS landing on me!

[Dagworth]

Hey Dave, while you were looking at the daleks some swiped your tripod!

 

Andi

[newbryford]

The answer is quite clear NOBODY AT ALL - That includes the Police Fire, Ambulance, Military, Network Rail, Highway represemntaives (I'm thinking lift bridges), etc.

 

The legislation is quite clear - whether in a car, on a bike, on a horse or on your own two feet they mean STOP and STAY STOPPED if you don't want to wait the only alternative open to you is to turn around and go back the way you came

 

 

 

When they replaced the barriers (and the whole control system) at our local CCTV controlled crossing last year (originally installed about 1980), it was closed to road traffic for 9 days and pedestrians were only allowed across under strict supervision of NR (or contractor) staff who were in contact with the local signal box. They used HERAS fencing to protect the worksite, but had a section that was swung to one side when it was safe to cross.

At one point, whilst testing the new installation, the reds were flashing, but pedestrians were still being allowed to cross.

 

Exceptional circumstances I know and not likely to happen there again for the next 30 years

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Budgie]

How much is this all going to cost?

[Grovenor]

Stop and stay or there won't be much left of you

Courtesy of Pete in another topic.

No need of barriers when you have a high speed steel wall.

Keith

Edited March 11, 2014 by Grovenor

[trisonic]

I highly recommend a day or two at Flagstaff - the road users have to be very patient when you get two 1 mile + trains crossing......

Killer Thai restaurant downtown too - more extinct volcanos than you can shake a stick at, oh, and the Grand Canyon is about half an hour away as is Winslow and The Meteor Crater...alternatively you can just stand on the corner in Winslow waiting for a girl in a Ford Truck.

 

Best, Pete.

Edited March 11, 2014 by trisonic